Yes/no vaccinations for new baby on Canada - France travel?

[lulu27]

Hi! we're expecting our first baby (first for me, 3rd for my partner) in early January/late December and are hoping to travel to the south of France within the next month of two for an extended stay. We're trying to figure out if we need/should wait to get the 2-month vaccinations before we go, or if we're able to safely go sooner, provided the baby is well and healthy and everything else is good for travel.

Any feedback/thoughts/suggestions/advice? :)

[ma2two]

This is July, you are hoping to go to France in August or September for an extended stay, and the baby will be born in December or January. It sounds like the baby will be born in France.

So I'm wondering how you could wait until the 2 month vaccines to travel.

Babies are born in France all the time, and they are fine.

[lulu27]

Woops! I just reread my own post - this is what happens upon writing too early in the morning after a sleepless night!

Baby will be born in January, and we are hoping to travel to France shortly after the baby is born (not a month or two from now, a month or two after the baby is born :) So we are thinking February or March, and wondering about waiting until the baby receives its 2-month vaccinations, or travelling to France prior to its 2-month vacs?

[bri276]

Personally, I wouldn't delay DTaP for any reason, and we're pretty darn selective/delayed.  So yes, I'd definitely wait until about 2 wks after at least the first DTaP, which I would get on schedule.

[ma2two]

lol, now I see. Sorry. It was possible to read it that way, but I didn't.

We don't vaccinate at all, so of course I would have no problem traveling to France without vaccines for my baby. People who vaccinate exactly on schedule will feel differently, of course.

I always have sodium ascorbate at home, and I would bring it on any extended trip as well. It proved to be a very effective treatment for pertussis when my family had it. It can be given to infants mixed with formula or breast milk.

[purslaine]

Check out the likelihood of pertussis in the south of France and then decide.

I have heard the first DTaP shot is sort of a primer - and offers little in the way of protection.  You might need to wait to 4 months if you want baby to have any sort of coverage.

Can you get the DTaP in France?

The diptheria and tetanus would not worry me at all.

I am non-vax.  There are places I would not bring an unvaxxed newborn - France is not among them.

Edited by purslaine - 7/17/12 at 4:10am

[bri276]

The airports and airplanes would also be concerns for exposure to pertussis.  And pertussis is endemic in France, as it is worldwide. 

The highest fatality risk is in infants less than 2 months because even one vaccine is helpful in ameliorating the progression of the disease.  Of course, waiting until at least 3 vaccines have been given would be the safest choice, but for many reasons, we all have to make less than ideal choices and do the best we can.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by bri276 

The airports and airplanes would also be concerns for exposure to pertussis.  And pertussis is endemic in France, as it is worldwide. 

The highest fatality risk is in infants less than 2 months because even one vaccine is helpful in ameliorating the progression of the disease.  Of course, waiting until at least 3 vaccines have been given would be the safest choice, but for many reasons, we all have to make less than ideal choices and do the best we can.

"Endemic" is nice - but I would want hard stats.  I am sure they are available online. Is the pertussis rate higher than Canada's - where it seems the OP is from?

Op, please read post 16 on this thread, where a poster explains and cites where she got the information that the first DTaP shot was a primer of sorts and offers little protection from pertussis:

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1355060/1-in-100-who-get-pertussis-will-diehttp://www.mothering.com/community/t/1355060/1-in-100-who-get-pertussis-will-die

Edited by purslaine - 7/17/12 at 4:14am

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by bri276 

The highest fatality risk is in infants less than 2 months because even one vaccine is helpful in ameliorating the progression of the disease.  

That is not the reason. The reason is that newborns are smaller and more vulnerable to a lot of things. 

[bri276]

It is one reason.  Otherwise, the same fatalities would be seen in all babies after age 2 months whether they were vaccinated or not, and that's not the case.

There are more reported cases of pertussis in Canada than France.  This is hardly a ringing endorsement of a decision to not vaccinate a Canadian child.  Also, the airplanes and airports won't contain only French nationals.

Post #16, btw, is wrong.  Most infants do show increased antibody levels after one dose of aP vaccine.  

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10849113

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by bri276 

It is one reason.  Otherwise, the same fatalities would be seen in all babies after age 2 months whether they were vaccinated or not, and that's not the case.

Can you show us something to back up that assertion?

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by bri276 

It is one reason.  Otherwise, the same fatalities would be seen in all babies after age 2 months whether they were vaccinated or not, and that's not the case.

There are more reported cases of pertussis in Canada than France.  This is hardly a ringing endorsement of a decision to not vaccinate a Canadian child.  Also, the airplanes and airports won't contain only French nationals.

If you are delayed or non-vax, it makes sense to look at the country you are trying to visit and see what their rate of a particular disease is.  If it is much higher than your country of origin, or if the medical care there is poor, you might consider vaxxing or skipping the visit.  The medical care in France is adequate (probably more than adequate) and the pertussis rate seems reasonably low - or in keeping with other countries. 

Yes, an airport is a hotbed of germs and the like…but so are malls, buses, etc.  I think there is some value in keeping newborns home (or not in enclosed places) - but that is a personal risk issue thing. I can see a person wanting to skip an enclosed space, but it is hardly just over pertussis.   

Post #16, btw, is wrong.  Most infants do show increased antibody levels after one dose of aP vaccine.  

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10849113

I guess the Op will have to read and decide for herself. 

Edited by purslaine - 7/17/12 at 4:55am

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by bri276 

It is one reason.  Otherwise, the same fatalities would be seen in all babies after age 2 months whether they were vaccinated or not, and that's not the case.

It is my understanding that as a baby ages, their lungs are better equipped to handle the illness.  I'd have to re-read the information about it, but I think it has something to do with the cilia in the lungs not being able to expel the mucus when they are newborn.

[purslaine]

I would encourage you to read on the effectiveness of DTaP, period, before making any decisions.  At least you have some time to do it!

Edited by purslaine - 7/17/12 at 4:12am

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I would encourage you to read on the effectiveness of DaPT, period, before making any decisions.  

I'm sure you mean DTaP. I just wanted to make that correction to make her research easier.

[MichelleZB]

You could also investigate getting some vaccines in France, I suppose, if you happen to be in the country around the time of your child's first vaccine round. Though that could be expensive.

[purslaine]

Lastly, and totally unrelated to VPD…..

I do question your timing on planning a major vacation or trip.

I have 3 children - with 2 of them I would not have wanted to travel with them as newborns.

baby #1 - did not nurse well until at least 6 weeks, nursed all the time and I was completely sleep deprived.  A vacation would have been do-able, but I doubt I would have enjoyed myself as much as if I had waited

baby#2  - really easy baby.  I could have travelled with her anywhere.

Baby#3 - Needed to be in the NICU at birth.  She was fine after 2 weeks or so, but I would not have wanted to take a baby that may or may not have medical needs out of the country and away from her health care providers.

I urge you to ask around on whether or not people think it is a good idea to travel with a newborn or if they would wait.  Newborns can be hard.  By 4 months or so all my kids were golden and I could enjoy life (and any potential trips) a lot more.  

Edited by purslaine - 7/17/12 at 5:16am

[Asiago]

Are you going to breastfeed? This is your baby's primary protection against respiratory disease (and gastrointestinal). Feeding directly from the breast and sharing the same environment with your baby will expose your body to the germs (pathogens) that she is exposed to, therefore allowing your body to produce the antibodies that she will need. Separation from baby, where baby is in an environment apart from mother's, risks this natural process. Although there are also antibodies previously transferred via placenta, the daily milk from mother's breast will be tailored to the germs baby is exposed to on a daily basis. Being in close contact with baby, and it's skin, saliva, urine and feces is part of this ongoing process. The lactoferrin, oligosaccharides and lysozyme in mother's milk provide steady ongoing protection also.

Whatever you decide about vaccination, I would still learn the technique for removing mucous from lungs of an infant with pertussis.

Lastly....if possible postpone the trip for a few months. The first two months are a period of vulnerability, plus being a new mother it may take a bit of time to figure out breastfeeding. Then there is the establishment of milk supply. Stress, missed feeds, and other factors can effect milk production.

Good luck whatever you decide and well wishes for the birth of your new baby.

[MamaMunchkin]

During the journey itself, not sure what to tell you - it's generally recommended to travel when the baby gets older.  If I were you, I'd look for stats and data on how flying affects the risks of a newborn getting sick, and by how much the risks change.

But, once you get there ... CDC has health advisory updates on different countries.  Have you checked this - http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/destinations/france.htm

[stik]

I traveled cross-country with both my daughters when they were under 8 weeks old.  Tiny babies are so portable, and comparatively easy to fly with because they sleep so much.  I don't think it would have made a difference to them if we were going to Southern France instead of Central Massachusetts.  Also, IMO, the time you can go to the South of France for a couple months is the time to go to the South of France.  Obviously, if something goes terribly wrong and the baby is in the NICU, your plans will change, but that would be true regardless of whether or not your plans included European travel. 

I don't know how extended your stay will be, but if you're going to be there for under a month, you probably can shift doctor visits and vaccines around it, and if you're going to be there for more than 6 weeks or so you will want to have a doc in country.  If you have friends or family in France, they might be able to help you arrange this.  If you're staying at a hotel or resort, give them a call - I bet they can help you find someone.  My (limited) understanding is that medical care in France isn't horribly expensive, even for tourists who aren't part of France's health care system and therefore have to pay out-of-pocket.