This is as far as I was willing to read to. I feel that you're calling me and people I associate with mentally deficient, not ok. Saying hateful things about a group you don't like is just as bad as them saying things about you.
That is like saying the person who doesn't allow their child to join an Aryan pride group is being just as bad as the racist group. Yes, I am going to attempt to stop my own child from being a bigot or supporting/joining groups that support bigotry.
I honestly don't see that connection. Anyway, there is a really huge difference between boy scouts and white supremacists. I think what people need to realize is that those who support the ban on openly gay members actually don't say much to their children about it. If you asked the average boy scout about the ban they wouldn't know much, if anything, about it. They're generally really nice kids. They never have rallies the way an aryan pride group would about their ban. The parents don't drill the message into their kids. They may not believe homosexuality is right but they (again, generally and in my experience) don't hate gay people or 'have it out' for them. What I've seen is that the kids from families that support the ban hear a lot more of this stuff at their church than at home, certainly never at boy scout meetings (it's never mentioned). Yes, kids will make jokes but IMO they are fewer and more tame than what kids would hear in school and the kids are immediately told it's not appropriate and they are not to say things like that again.
This is as far as I was willing to read to. I feel that you're calling me and people I associate with mentally deficient, not ok. Saying hateful things about a group you don't like is just as bad as them saying things about you.
That is like saying the person who doesn't allow their child to join an Aryan pride group is being just as bad as the racist group. Yes, I am going to attempt to stop my own child from being a bigot or supporting/joining groups that support bigotry.
I honestly don't see that connection. Anyway, there is a really huge difference between boy scouts and white supremacists. I think what people need to realize is that those who support the ban on openly gay members actually don't say much to their children about it. If you asked the average boy scout about the ban they wouldn't know much, if anything, about it. They're generally really nice kids. They never have rallies the way an aryan pride group would about their ban. The parents don't drill the message into their kids. They may not believe homosexuality is right but they (again, generally and in my experience) don't hate gay people or 'have it out' for them. What I've seen is that the kids from families that support the ban hear a lot more of this stuff at their church than at home, certainly never at boy scout meetings (it's never mentioned). Yes, kids will make jokes but IMO they are fewer and more tame than what kids would hear in school and the kids are immediately told it's not appropriate and they are not to say things like that again.
What if you lived 50 years ago and your child really really wanted to join the club that excluded blacks or jews? Is it "not letting him be himself" by saying, "our family believes in equality, we do not give our time and money to organizations that fight against it." Well, it's the same thing. The boy scouts take your dues and use them to fight in court for the *right* to exclude non-heterosexuals and atheists. They say that is the only way to raise *moral* children.
La Limena, this must be hard for the leaders and scouts to come to terms with. I admire you for working within the organization for change. I'm curious as to how you leaders have dealt with this and if you talk about the decision with your scouts. I would imagine that a decision like this would be strongly influenced by the old guard in the Boy Scouts, as you say, and especially because the Boy Scouts is an institution, always slow to change unfortunately.
Do you see yourself and others like you moving up in the organization? Do you see any trend toward changing this policy any time soon?
In my Pack sexual orientation is a non-issue. We don't ask boys or their families about their sexual preferences. During leader training we are instructed that whoever a boy considers his family, is his family. According to BSA "Many Cub Scouts do not come from traditional two-parent homes. Some boys live with a single parent or with other relatives or guardians. Cub Scouting considers a boy's family to be the people with whom he lives." That seems open-minded to me, and a decent step forward considering Don't Ask Don't Tell was until recently the law of the land.
At the District level, I know there are leaders who are up in arms about the "gay issue." They are not up in arms because they are Scouts, however, they are up in arms because they are LDS and would be up in arms regardless.
In my own Den in some cases I have yet to see a second parent at an activity. For all I know a little Cub could have two same sex parents and I am none the wiser. I am not going to investigate and report to Council.
This is an odd comment. You don't have to be Christian to be in Scouts, not sure where you got that information. In my small Den, I have Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Hindu, Orthodox, Jewish, and Muslim families. I have one family who is agnostic as far as I know so when there is a "faith" achievement to complete on the family level, (all faith activities are done as individual families and not as a Den or Pack as a whole since my Pack does not belong to a religious institution) I advise them to talk over why it is that they believe what they believe. The rest of the Pack has a similar mix of faiths. In February there are Scout Sunday (Christian) and Scout Sabbath (Jewish) observances in our area. The Scouts can work on special Religious Emblems programs and earn recognitions from their houses of worship. Emblems are available for various Protestant denominations including the Quaker, Episcopalian, and Unity Churches, Catholics, Orthodox denominations, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Baha'is, Meher Babas, and Zoroastrians.
What is also interesting is that very open, non-discriminatory denominations such as Unity, Episcopal, and Quaker churches are equally recognized by the BSA as are the very intolerant religions and denominations such as LDS, Islam, Pentecostals, and Salvation Army. This variety in religious belief is why I think that change is possible in BSA. If I am a moral and faithful Episcopalian and my church ordains gay bishops and performs same-sex blessing ceremonies, my religious beliefs in the dignity of all people should be supported and respected by BSA. The very large and vocal LDS contingent in BSA doesn't have a monopoly on morality and faith. For the time being, it is a numbers game. I think it is important that families of non-discriminatory denominations participate in Scouts to balance and then tip the scales in the other direction.
To me, it all comes down to the money.
If you started a boy scout group that welcomed atheists and non-heterosexuals, I would still not allow my son to join. Why, because the *national* level association STILL gets a portion of your dues.
Which they turn around and spend on lawyers that defent their right to exclusionary behaviors. The national leadership, in fact, recently said they felt a majority of their membership agreed with their fight. If you are working "within the organization" they are *not* hearing you.
Your money is going to promote hatred. I, as much as I can, want to ensure that mine does not.
This is an odd comment. You don't have to be Christian to be in Scouts, not sure where you got that information. In my small Den, I have Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Hindu, Orthodox, Jewish, and Muslim families. I have one family who is agnostic as far as I know so when there is a "faith" achievement to complete on the family level, (all faith activities are done as individual families and not as a Den or Pack as a whole since my Pack does not belong to a religious institution) I advise them to talk over why it is that they believe what they believe. The rest of the Pack has a similar mix of faiths. In February there are Scout Sunday (Christian) and Scout Sabbath (Jewish) observances in our area. The Scouts can work on special Religious Emblems programs and earn recognitions from their houses of worship. Emblems are available for various Protestant denominations including the Quaker, Episcopalian, and Unity Churches, Catholics, Orthodox denominations, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Baha'is, Meher Babas, and Zoroastrians.
What is also interesting is that very open, non-discriminatory denominations such as Unity, Episcopal, and Quaker churches are equally recognized by the BSA as are the very intolerant religions and denominations such as LDS, Islam, Pentecostals, and Salvation Army. This variety in religious belief is why I think that change is possible in BSA. If I am a moral and faithful Episcopalian and my church ordains gay bishops and performs same-sex blessing ceremonies, my religious beliefs in the dignity of all people should be supported and respected by BSA. The very large and vocal LDS contingent in BSA doesn't have a monopoly on morality and faith. For the time being, it is a numbers game. I think it is important that families of non-discriminatory denominations participate in Scouts to balance and then tip the scales in the other direction.
Belief in a god is a requirement. Which, by definition, excludes atheists. I'm surprised as a leader you don't know that.
I know this is kind of an old thread, but my issue is that the boy scouts are not exactly a private group. They receive public funding- tax dollars, federal charters, they get tax exemptions, they get use of space, personnel, and time in public schools, use of public facilities...I don't feel like they should be able to have it both ways. They should either be public and open to all, or they can be private and have limited/discriminatory membership but should not rely on public help.
UPS and Intel recently pulled out from funding the boy scouts any further due to their anti-gay policies.
There's also all of the information that has come out recently about the cover ups in molestation cases within the boy scouts organization. Overall, it's just not something I would ever want my son to be a part of.
What do family members have to do with this? Belief in a god is a requirement of BSA. It's in their oath. It's common knowledge. So if a scout is an atheist, ergo BSA would exclude them from the organization.
What if you lived 50 years ago and your child really really wanted to join the club that excluded blacks or jews? Is it "not letting him be himself" by saying, "our family believes in equality, we do not give our time and money to organizations that fight against it." Well, it's the same thing. The boy scouts take your dues and use them to fight in court for the *right* to exclude non-heterosexuals and atheists. They say that is the only way to raise *moral* children.
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