Resources for parenting troubled kids who are NOT RAD

[heatherdeg]

I'm looking for resources for parenting very hurt children who are taking out their pain on everyone around them and make for challenging parenting.  The mainstream parenting books don't come close to fitting the bill and they are beyond the basic "just love them" because they are going out of their way to MAKE you react (yes, I know this is a very RAD trait and this is why I posted that it's not a RAD child).

There really just doesn't seem to be a lot of support for the middle of the road.  Foster, adopted or even bio (when parents have realized that their behaviors have done more harm than good and are trying to turn around a very nasty set of behaviors borne of a child's pain and feelings of worthlessness).

Anyone have resources?  Books?  Forums?  Organizations?  Links?

[queenjane]

Have you read Beyond Consequences by Heather Forbes? I'm not sure I like her or her writing style but her viewpoint makes sense. Its all about brain chemistry and why a child responds a certain way and how the parents response can impact behavior. It worked like magic for us for about a month but I kind of fell off the wagon. The parent has to do most of the work in being very mindful. I would like to read more of the books she recommends (by other authors) about the brain and why people react the way they do.

[lauren]

One concept that can be helpful is to think about kids not in terms of RAD or NOT-RAD, but in terms of attachment patterns. All of us have attachment patterns and can have ways of connecting with others that are either positive negative. The main attachment patterns are anxious, ambivalent, avoidant and disorganized (these are googleable). If it's possible to sort out the attachment style of the child and to figure out your own attachment style (on a continuum from very mild trouble to severe) it can begin to make sense why a child and a foster parent are either connecting or having trouble connecting.

Other resources that might be of value that don't pathologize: The Circles of Security Project, and Mary Dozier's Biobehavioral Catch Up model.
 

[lauren]

Links for the approaches mentioned above:

Circle of Security

http://circleofsecurity.net/resources/treatment-assumptions/

Biobehavioral CatchUp

http://abcintervention.com/

Both approaches look at patterns on a continuum and do not try to label children as RAD, but as needing to learn new skills and approaches in order to be more successful in families.
 

[heatherdeg]

Thanks.  Any more resources welcome (although Googling the terms above don't help much as they seem to bring up a TON of unrelated stuff)

[lauren]

I know there is a lot of junk out there. Here is one, written for the lay person but describes the various attachment styles and how they "look" in kids and adults. It's 9 pages so the first page is general.

http://psychology.about.com/od/loveandattraction/ss/attachmentstyle.htm

[heatherdeg]

I was about to write that I'm really not looking for attachment stuff, but then I guess most severe behavior comes back to attachment.  *sigh*

[lauren]

Well I guess my point was that the style someone does attachment can often cause trouble, even if they don't develop reactive attachment disorder which is a much more complex and less common disorder. So, attachment and trauma are usually the culprits and usually the root for kids that are in the foster care system. Not necessarily true for adoption at birth or international adoption, depending on the life story.

Sorry I'm not much help! I hope someone else shows up that can give you a hand!
 

[heatherdeg]

Ha!!! Except I've seen it in both bio and newborn adoption (not RAD, but severe behaviors).

Regardless of how they got there, there does not appear to be an extensive amount out there for people trying to reverse it. And definitely no support community... kwim? Unless one of those links has a support forum. I will be digging into them to see, just haven't gotten to it yet.

[heatherdeg]

Oh! And what I meant was that this is for kids who suffered "lesser" traumas--but traumas none-the-less (or perhaps multiple smaller traumas that equalled a larger problem). So parents that believed in spanking (not beating) and yelling on top of other (uncommon) life disruptions and maybe disengaged parents.... years o that kind of stuff as opposed to addict or full-on disappearing parents for years at a time. Not parents that were attempting to practice AP and just really didn't get it right. Does this make sense? I feel like I can't describe what I'm looking for. Not all kids come into care from the worst of homes. Bad, yes, but not always horrifying.

[lauren]

I think I know what you mean-- so kids that may have intense temperaments and/or might be just wired differently, perhaps regardless of their home experiences? Or are grieving, or just plain confused. Or where there is just a tricky fit between the parents and the child?
 

[Holland73]

I highly recommend Dr. Ross Greene's The Explosive Child. 

My agency uses a lot of Dr. Greene's priniciples in their residential treatment and TBS (Therapeutic Behavioral Services) programs.   And, I use a lot of his principles with my clients and their families.  All of my clients are CPS referrals (with some court mandates thrown in there) and have varying degrees of abuse/trauma in their history.  Oh, and I have also used it for certain issues with my own son. 

[heatherdeg]

Originally Posted by lauren 

I think I know what you mean-- so kids that may have intense temperaments and/or might be just wired differently, perhaps regardless of their home experiences? Or are grieving, or just plain confused. Or where there is just a tricky fit between the parents and the child?
 

Exactly.  And even more than just literature, there doesn't seem to even be an online community that really speaks to this... which is sad for those parents.

[dogretro]

The last fp class we attended, the presenter, who was a therapist, had a real issue with RAD diagnosis, which was really interesting. She said she does not diagnose RAD, she says it's all Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. I asked her some about it and I thought it really made sense. A person *may* have RAD, but not necessarily. They "just" may have been traumatized and acting out on those feelings. So, maybe look into someone who treats kids for PTSD.

My own v young biological child displays many of the diagnostic criteria for an ODD diagnosis &, you are correct, there is v little out there for parents of explosive, deliberately argumentative and annoying children. I really liked The Explosive Child, but my child refuses to participate in collaborative problem solving. Refuses. I am going to check out Beyond Consequences and also have her evaluated in preschool this year. Good luck. I don't really have anything much useful except for the PTSD thing.

[lauren]

Originally Posted by dogretro 

The last fp class we attended, the presenter, who was a therapist, had a real issue with RAD diagnosis, which was really interesting. She said she does not diagnose RAD, she says it's all Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. I asked her some about it and I thought it really made sense. A person *may* have RAD, but not necessarily. They "just" may have been traumatized and acting out on those feelings. So, maybe look into someone who treats kids for PTSD.

My own v young biological child displays many of the diagnostic criteria for an ODD diagnosis &, you are correct, there is v little out there for parents of explosive, deliberately argumentative and annoying children. I really liked The Explosive Child, but my child refuses to participate in collaborative problem solving. Refuses. I am going to check out Beyond Consequences and also have her evaluated in preschool this year. Good luck. I don't really have anything much useful except for the PTSD thing.

This is the direction the field is going in general; away from RAD and more toward complex trauma. There is a strong move to get a new diagnosis included in the next diagnostic manual for 'developmental trauma disorder' instead of RAD.

[queenjane]

Originally Posted by dogretro 

The last fp class we attended, the presenter, who was a therapist, had a real issue with RAD diagnosis, which was really interesting. She said she does not diagnose RAD, she says it's all Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. I asked her some about it and I thought it really made sense. A person *may* have RAD, but not necessarily. They "just" may have been traumatized and acting out on those feelings. So, maybe look into someone who treats kids for PTSD.

This is along the lines of the info in Beyond Consequences. Its very clear with my daughter that she has a trauma response to even little things...and her response provokes negative response from me unless i stop and recognize it as a trauma response. It can be VERY subtle...like how she averts/rolls her eyes when i ask her a question, or how she will freeze when i ask her if she did something (then follow the freeze up with a lie)...her many food issues look so much like "manipulation" but i know at the root, its all trauma. It makes it a little easier to deal with when you look at a child as a traumatized child rather than as an attachment-disordered child trying to ruin your life. BC goes into great detail showing how the typical attachment disorder-focused response (labelling something as triangulation, or manipulation etc) just digs the child in further to their trauma response. I'm not explaining it well but its very interesting. Its basically figuring out the child's triggers and trying to change the way the child's brain responds to those triggers.

[queenjane]

Also EMDR therapy is supposed to be quite helpful in helping a child process a traumatized past. My dd is supposed to start at our next therapy appt.

[jes h]

Are there any behavioral service providers in your area to go to?  I think our current sibling placement are similar;  they are certainly not RAD, but the oldest requires medication to function through the day without her 'dark' moods and emotions just overwhelming her.  Their background is of sever neglect/abandonment, and as previous posters mentioned, she just doesn't have healthy ways to develop attachments to people.  (sadly, she WANTS to, which often leads to these negative behavior explosions).  However, most of the time she is lovely, and the generally no one would guess she needs more intense support.

anyway, that was rambly.   The pont:   These two are getting services through a behavioral therapy agency, which has been great.  (monthly med. visits w/ psychiatrist and a weekly 3 hour visit with a behavioral therapist).  This is in addition to a child/family therapist she sees.  What surprised me is that we had a previous sibling set with behavior issues as well, and their social worker didn't seem to be aware that there were such behavioral services in our area.  (She wasn't the hottest). 

It would be worthwhile to ask the social worker about resources (ask, or pressure...).  A good friend of ours is a CPS social worker, and she is always reminding me that it is my social worker's job to research/find/set up service providers, even though it sometimes feels like the task falls to me.

Edited to clarify:  the service provider we work with prescribed her meds, but worked with her w/o meds first.  

Edited by jes h - 8/7/12 at 2:18pm

[heatherdeg]

Originally Posted by dogretro 

The last fp class we attended, the presenter, who was a therapist, had a real issue with RAD diagnosis, which was really interesting. She said she does not diagnose RAD, she says it's all Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. I asked her some about it and I thought it really made sense. A person *may* have RAD, but not necessarily. They "just" may have been traumatized and acting out on those feelings. So, maybe look into someone who treats kids for PTSD.

That makes sense.

My own v young biological child displays many of the diagnostic criteria for an ODD diagnosis &, you are correct, there is v little out there for parents of explosive, deliberately argumentative and annoying children. I really liked The Explosive Child, but my child refuses to participate in collaborative problem solving. Refuses. I am going to check out Beyond Consequences and also have her evaluated in preschool this year. Good luck. I don't really have anything much useful except for the PTSD thing.

Good call.  You are pretty much living my life with the part above that I bolded.  The pain is just so great that there is no interest in working together.  There's just "I need my pain to get out".  Poor thing.

Originally Posted by queenjane 

Also EMDR therapy is supposed to be quite helpful in helping a child process a traumatized past. My dd is supposed to start at our next therapy appt.

Oooo.... I need to see how young they can do that.

Originally Posted by jes h 

Are there any behavioral service providers in your area to go to?  I think our current sibling placement are similar;  they are certainly not RAD, but the oldest requires medication to function through the day without her 'dark' moods and emotions just overwhelming her.  Their background is of sever neglect/abandonment, and as previous posters mentioned, she just doesn't have healthy ways to develop attachments to people.  (sadly, she WANTS to, which often leads to these negative behavior explosions).  However, most of the time she is lovely, and the generally no one would guess she needs more intense support.

anyway, that was rambly.   The pont:   These two are getting services through a behavioral therapy agency, which has been great.  (monthly med. visits w/ psychiatrist and a weekly 3 hour visit with a behavioral therapist).  This is in addition to a child/family therapist she sees.  What surprised me is that we had a previous sibling set with behavior issues as well, and their social worker didn't seem to be aware that there were such behavioral services in our area.  (She wasn't the hottest). 

It would be worthwhile to ask the social worker about resources (ask, or pressure...).  A good friend of ours is a CPS social worker, and she is always reminding me that it is my social worker's job to research/find/set up service providers, even though it sometimes feels like the task falls to me.

Edited to clarify:  the service provider we work with prescribed her meds, but worked with her w/o meds first.  

I'm not talking about foster kids and/or older adoptees (who were old enough to be more aware of severe neglect/abandonment.  I'm talking about bios or newborn adoptees (I realize that they still endure stress and trauma of abandonment, but I personally have a hard time equating that with a 3yo left alone for 9 hours/day to fend for herself and can tell me stories about being punished for eating pudding because it was what she could reach despite it being "dessert".   That 3yo has clear memory of her abandonment and neglect... kwim?  The newborn taken home by the adoptive family from the hospital suffers, but I feel like it's different--feel free to set me straight on that)

[lauren]

I am a big believer in temperament, having seen lots of challenging children (including my own!) that never suffered anything in their lives. The traits that they have identified as being part of temperament are traits we all have--just with a higher or lower degree of intensity.  May be worth a look. I have argued (playfully) with a major attachment theorist about this topic and I'm sticking to my opinion, that some kids have temperaments that actually resemble children with major issues--only they have not had an challenges in their life or development.

http://www.temperament.com/clinical.html