Research article: Self-Organized Criticality Theory of Autoimmunity - Page 2

[Imakcerka]

Would you agree that vaccines are not the only possible trigger for eliciting an auto immune response?  I can't imagine that you would deny it.  I'm part of a large community of people who do have auto immune diseases.  There are numerous people in my family as well with auto immune diseases.  Most of them women.  Quite a few people can pinpoint the when they began feeling ill, surgeries elective or needed, accidents, stressful life situations, bacterial infections and vaccines such as the flu shot have triggered their auto immune diseases.  Their sex and family history also play a part.  You'd have to be a fool not to recognize that. 

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

Vaccines over stress the immune system on purpose. It only took eight antigens to put the mice's immune system over the edge, that isn't that much when you consider that children get approximately 125 antigens from birth to 6 years old, and their vaccines include toxic adjuvants, preservatives. I don't know how anyone can deny that is not enough to surpass the system's self-organized criticality. 

No one is denying other things besides vaccines can cause a autoimmune response. How many babies and children are getting boob jobs these days?

[Imakcerka]

Nothing huh?

[Mirzam]

I thought I made my point of view very clear. 

[Imakcerka]

That you misunderstood the article?  Or that you think vaccines are the only cause of auto immune diseases?  Did I get that part wrong? 

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

That you misunderstood the article?  Or that you think vaccines are the only cause of auto immune diseases?  Did I get that part wrong? 

I think you have misunderstood the peer reviewed research paper, and I never said vaccines were the sole cause of autoimmune diseases. However, in babies and young children, that tend not to get boob jobs, they are likely to be one of the main causes.

[kathymuggle]

There are lots of triggers for autoimmune responses.

I think trying to avoid triggers is reasonable.

Some you can't avoid, and some you may not choose to avoid because the payoffs are worth the risk.

Vaccines are 100% avoidable.  Some people may live in areas where VPDs are extremely prevalent, and vaccines might be a safer bet than not for those with autoimmune issues (viruses cause autoimmune reactions as well). This does not apply to most on MDC.  

Even if you are pro-vax, many pro-vaxxers agree those with certain pre-existing health issues should avoid vaxxing.  You are part of the herd as well, and need to protect yourself.  

Imakcerka, the above is not directed at you, but those in research mode and new to thinking about how vaccines work into their lives.

[Imakcerka]

In a research platform

Conclusion:

Chronic diseases are an inevitable result of vaccinations!

This is not presenting facts.  This is presenting a belief.  Chronic diseases are not an inevitable result of vaccinations.  The peer review doesn't even say that.  I'm trying to figure out exactly how the OP came to that conclusion. 

[Mirzam]

My interpretation of the conclusion of the study is that chronic diseases are the inevitable result of vaccinations, not just possible or probable, based on these quotes from the authors,

"Repeated immunization with antigen cause systemic autoimmunity in mice otherwise not prone to spontaneous autoimmune diseases"

 and 

Systemic autoimmunity appears to be the inevitable consequence of over-stimulating the host's immune 'system' by repeated immunization with antigen, to the levels that surpass system's self-organized criticality.

The author's found tissue injury like that of lupus erthematosus and other kinds of autoimmune disorders. They found these auto-antibodies: 

• IgG-rheumatoid factor (RF)
• IgM-RF
• Anti-Sm antibody
• RF reactive against galactose-deficient IgG

All of these are significant in rheumatoid arthritis which is an autoimmune disorder. Galactose-deficient IgG is a marker used in diagnosing rheumatoid arthritis.

The authors found the following tissue damage:

• Diffuse membranous (wire-loop glomerulonephritis in the kidney,
• Proliferative glomerulonephritis in the kidney
• Infiltration of plasma cells around hepatic bile ducts
• Enlarged lymphoid follicles with marked germinal center in the spleen
• Occasional lymphocyte infiltration into the salivary glands
• Lymphoid cell infiltration into the thyroid
• Perivascular infiltration of neutrophils and macrophages into the skin dermis of the auricle
• Positive lupus band test

If you don't agree with my conclusion, that is fine with me, I really don't care.

[Imakcerka]

You care.

[Mirzam]

No I don't, you can think whatever you like. What is the point of this pissing match?

[Imakcerka]

It's dangerous to those who would remain vaccine free and still get an AI.  What would you tell them then?  I DO NOT disagree that vaccines can trigger an auto immune response, I think it's irresponsible to point only to vaccines when discussing AI's.  It's irresponsible to not explain that they are hereditary and predominately occur in women. 

This is not a pissing match.  I'm not doing that.  I'm telling you that you're not giving all the information and I'm not sure what that does for you but it doesn't help people searching that's for sure.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

It's dangerous to those who would remain vaccine free and still get an AI.  What would you tell them then?  I DO NOT disagree that vaccines can trigger an auto immune response, I think it's irresponsible to point only to vaccines when discussing AI's.  It's irresponsible to not explain that they are hereditary and predominately occur in women. 

This is not a pissing match.  I'm not doing that.  I'm telling you that you're not giving all the information and I'm not sure what that does for you but it doesn't help people searching that's for sure.

Okay, I think I understand the problem, I am not saying that vaccines are the one and only cause of autoimmune diseases. But I have no idea what you mean by the statement "It's dangerous to those who would remain free and still get an AI" Do you mean that if people forgo vaccines because they are concerned about autoimmune diseases then they are putting themselves at risk for the consequences, ie dying of a VPD? And then they get an autoimmune disease from some other means? If that is the case, is it not up to the individual to make that judgement call? It is not my responsibility to "give all the information", you are welcome to chime in with your opinion, as you have done. 

[Imakcerka]

I'm saying that if someone were to forgo vaccines thinking that that would mitigate the chance of triggering an AI and they still got one they would have acted on false information. If they didn't understand that there were so many other ways and reason for AI's. 

When presenting information about AI's and vaccines it's important to also explain all the other things as well.  BECAUSE AI's fricking suck.  They suck to hell and back and letting people know that just because they missed it with their childhood rounds of vaccines doesn't mean that an elective surgery or any other trauma inducing situations couldn't trigger an AI response. 

[Mirzam]

I guess I give people more credit than you do. I doubt anyone would believe that vaccines are the only cause of autoimmune diseases and would be totally shocked that their unvaxed child got one, believing they would be "bullet proof". However, I am going to stick my neck out and say childhood vaccines are likely a primary cause of autoimmune disorders in babies and children. I am sure autoimmune diseases suck and I am eternally thankful that no one in my immediate family has one.

[Imakcerka]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

I guess I give people more credit than you do. I doubt anyone would believe that vaccines are the only cause of autoimmune diseases and would be totally shocked that their unvaxed child got one, believing they would be "bullet proof". However, I am going to stick my neck out and say childhood vaccines are likely a primary cause of autoimmune disorders in babies and children. I am sure autoimmune diseases suck and I am eternally thankful that no one in my immediate family has one.

That assumption is incorrect. 

http://www.childrenshospital.org/az/Site614/mainpageS614P1.html

Causes

The exact reason that some children’s immune systems begin attacking their own bodies is still a mystery. But we do know that autoimmune diseases are not contagious, and they don’t appear to be caused by any one thing in particular. Instead, scientists believe there’s a multi-step process at work: 

• Heredity: A child inherits certain genes from her parents that make her susceptible to a particular disease.
• Environmental factors: The disease doesn’t actually reveal itself until it’s “triggered” by something—an infection, say, or exposure to certain toxins or drugs.
• Hormonal factors: Given that many autoimmune diseases tend to affect adolescent girls and young women, the presence or amount of certain naturally occurring hormones in the body may also play a role in when these illnesses come to the fore.  

Researchers are now working to discover which genes are involved and how they interact—and are likewise investigating a number of potential environmental and hormonal triggers—in order

Edited by Imakcerka - 8/19/12 at 6:27am

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

 

Causes

The exact reason that some children’s immune systems begin attacking their own bodies is still a mystery. But we do know that autoimmune diseases are not contagious, and they don’t appear to be caused by any one thing in particular. Instead, scientists believe there’s a multi-step process at work: 

• Heredity: A child inherits certain genes from her parents that make her susceptible to a particular disease.
• Environmental factors: The disease doesn’t actually reveal itself until it’s “triggered” by something—an infection, say, or exposure to certain toxins or drugs.
• Hormonal factors: Given that many autoimmune diseases tend to affect adolescent girls and young women, the presence or amount of certain naturally occurring hormones in the body may also play a role in when these illnesses come to the fore.  

Researchers are now working to discover which genes are involved and how they interact—and are likewise investigating a number of potential environmental and hormonal triggers—in order

Well, after this research one of the reasons isn't such a mystery. Maybe the writer of this article from Boston's Children's Hospital would do well to read this study. Again, I repeat the mice were bred to have no genetic disposition to autoimmune disease, the sole reason for the mice's autoimmunity was the "vaccines". 

[Imakcerka]

So on this study alone you're going to say all the other research is mute?  The large AI community should stop everything they're doing and read this one peer review because it explains it all?  That children with AI's would never have them had their brainwashed parents not gotten them vaccinated?  That's some mighty big finger pointing don't you think? 

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

So on this study alone you're going to say all the other research is mute?  The large AI community should stop everything they're doing and read this one peer review because it explains it all?  That children with AI's would never have them had their brainwashed parents not gotten them vaccinated?  That's some mighty big finger pointing don't you think? 

No I am not saying that. As far as I am concerned this pissing match is finish. To others reading this, please make what you will of this research. It is just one piece of the puzzle, but it seems a very important one to me.

[Imakcerka]

No it's not a piece of the puzzle.  Mirzam this is not a pissing match.  I have given you ample opportunity to support your theory and you haven't done anything but point back to the peer review you originally offered.  I've given you reasons as to why it is inaccurate and you refuse to look outside the box.  That is why I said it was dangerous.  Also you do not have an AI as you have already admitted, for people who suffer with them telling them it's all their fault is quite ugly.  Telling a parent they alone have caused their childs pain is cruel.    AND IT'S NOT TRUE!  I have given you more than one place of reference and I have not disagreed that vaccines can trigger a dormant disease in the body and you do not want to see it as anything but the sole cause.  Which means this can't be a discussion if only one side wants to talk instead of just wanting to be right.

[pigpokey]

Anecdotally, one of my two children was diagnosed with Celiac at age 6, prior to receiving any vaccinations.  So just in the unlikely case that anyone still reading is entertaining the idea that autoimmune disease might be unknown in unvaccinated children ...