Newborn vaccines? Eye drops, vitamin K, and Hep B??

[ericaf]

I'm a FTM, and of course, slightly overwhelmed with the thought of vaccinations and everything they want to do to my sweet girl the moment she comes out. Can anyone tell me the advantages/disadvantages to the typical newborn screenings? I know in the hospital I'm delivering at the antibiotic eye drops, vitamin K, and Hep B are standard... I just don't know what I feel is actually necessary. I've been tyring to read up as much as I can, but I feel so conflicted.

Also, a pediatrician I met with told me I would need a Hep B shot (I believe in the hospital) and whooping cough. My husband is a career fireman in NYC, and of course, they pump him full of every shot/vaccine there is. He is now obsessed with whooping cough and thinks we all need it. I just don't agree. Personally, I can't remember the last time I got a shot. Maybe 15? I vetoed the flu shot while pregnant (and I've never had one before)... I just feel so lost and confused, and that I don't have much time to decide.

[ma2two]

Antibiotic eye drops are to prevent an eye infection in your baby if you have gonorrhea. Totally unnecessary if you don't have gonorrhea. You can be tested  for this STD if they haven't tested you already. Any unnecessary antibiotics are harmful. They also make it hard for the baby to see while the eyes are covered with goo, which can affect bonding. I loved gazing into my newborns' eyes when they were born.

All newborns are naturally "low" in vitamin K. I tend to think there must be a good reason for that. I would only consider giving vitamin K if there was a traumatic birth such as a vacuum extraction or forceps. The vitamin K shot is to prevent a very rare newborn bleeding condition that is more common after a traumatic birth. There is some evidence that the vitamin K shot may increase the risk of leukemia. I'm sure there will be people who say that was "debunked." There is uncertainty, though, and I wouldn't be wiling to take the risk.

The hepatitis B shot is to keep your baby from contracting hepatitis B from you, if you have hepatitis B. You should have already been tested for hepatitis B during pregnancy. If you don't have it, then there is no reason for your baby to get this potentially dangerous vaccine. Hospitals like to give it to all babies anyway, just to make sure they don't accidentally miss a baby whose mother has hepatitis B.

You may be noticing a theme here--hospitals have policies to treat all babies for conditions that only certain babies have. It's easier for them that way, and is probably a lot more profitable as well, to not have to spend time figuring out which babies really need what. But you're not a large bureaucracy. You have only one baby to think about, so you can make sure for yourself that you don't have gonorrhea and hepatitis B, and you can make the vitamin K decision based on the type of birth you have.

Whooping cough is so common despite record high vaccination levels because the vaccine is extremely ineffective. It may decrease the symptoms of pertussis, if it works as intended. It isn't even meant to prevent someone from catching the pertussis bacteria and spreading the bacteria to others. It is a toxoid vaccine, meaning it works against the toxins the pertussis bacteria produce in the body. The toxins are what cause the cough. Despite heavy marketing to parents, the vaccine manufacturer admits in fine print that, "It is unknown whether immunizing adolescents and adults against pertussis will reduce the risk of transmission to infants." http://www.vaccineplace.com/support/brochure/adacelpatientbrochure.pdf (page 5) The vaccine also increases the risk of parapertussis, which is very similar to pertussis. http://www.cidd.psu.edu/research/synopses/acellular-vaccine-enhancement-b.-parapertussis

Edited by ma2two - 8/1/12 at 9:54am

[ericaf]

Thank you VERY much for that clarification. Now another question. I signed papers when I registered at the hospital saying okay to all of that. Do you know how I change that? Do I just say no that day?

[ma2two]

Yes, you should change that. I didn't have hospital births, so I don't know exactly how that works, but if it were me, I would ask to see my chart and actually remove those papers without telling them beforehand what I was going to do. (I would tell them afterwards, once the papers were torn up and thrown away). I would feel a lot more comfortable doing that than trusting the doctors and nurses to notice an addendum somewhere in the chart.

But again, I don't know how that works, or if they would even let you alone with the chart. But I definitely know this should be taken care of ahead of time.

[fruitfulmomma]

What Ma said... I don't have hep b or gonarhea and baby had a normal, vaginal birth with no evidence of bruising. I just had to sign refusal forms when we checked in, no problems. We use a fam doc, not a ped, and he is okay with our no vax decision. 

But I see you are in ny and I think laws there tend to be a bit more strict on the refusals so maybe try posting in your tribe too and  see what some mommas from there can tell you.

[ma2two]

Luckily, it looks like she is actually in New Jersey, not New York. It is extremely difficult to refuse the eye antibiotics and the vitamin K for a hospital birth in New York. The hepatitis B vaccine is optional in all states, though. (Optional at the hospital, but required for school, unless you sign an exemption).

[MichelleZB]

I'm extremely pro-vaccine, and even I don't think it's necessary to do the Hep B on a newborn. It could be just because I'm Canadian, and we don't do that here routinely on newborns. If the mom has Hep B (which you can test for!), then they get the shot. I think that makes much more sense.

Ditto for gonnorrhea! You can easily test for that in the mom.

The Vitamin K shot we did get, though. It prevents newborns bleeding out, which you can't really predict in advance. It's not a vaccine (because vitamin K is not a disease, just a vitamin).

As for vaccines for you: yes! I did get an MMR booster in the hospital after giving birth. My rubella immunity had worn off (as it tends to do after 10 years or so). They don't want to give your kid MMR until he/she is older, so it makes more sense to give it to you (and then you won't be able to pass on any M, M, or R).

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by MichelleZB 

As for vaccines for you: yes! I did get an MMR booster in the hospital after giving birth. My rubella immunity had worn off (as it tends to do after 10 years or so). They don't want to give your kid MMR until he/she is older, so it makes more sense to give it to you (and then you won't be able to pass on any M, M, or R).

This is what the MMR vaccine package insert says regarding nursing mothers.

"It is not known whether measles or mumps vaccine virus is secreted in human milk. Recent studies have shown that lactating postpartum women immunized with live attenuated rubella vaccine may secrete the virus in breast milk and transmit it to breast-fed infants. In the infants with serological evidence of rubella infection, none exhibited severe disease; however, one exhibited mild clinical illness typical of acquired rubella. Caution should be exercised when M-M-R II is administered to a nursing woman."

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM123789.pdf (page 6)

[ericaf]

Love all this info. I am in NJ... so I do believe I have the choice in getting the vitamin K, Hep B and eye antibiotics. I didn't have to sign the paper I did, but the more I think about it... the more I don't want what I signed for! Of courseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Also, what you you guys think of the whole whooping cough craze? I understand it's "coming back" maybe a bit... but also that it is more diagnosed in babies/people who HAD the vaccine. Is that true??

[fruitfulmomma]

Ah, good then...I just saw you said you husband works in nyc. Weird that you had to sign those up front, or I think it is but I've only had one planned hospital birth and only filled out the online registration before hand. I signed all the paperwork including the generic treatment forms when we checked in and since I had refusals for those things written into my birth plan they brought those forms at the same time. Maybe ask your ob what you can do to get them removed or changed?

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by ericaf 

Also, what you you guys think of the whole whooping cough craze? I understand it's "coming back" maybe a bit... but also that it is more diagnosed in babies/people who HAD the vaccine. Is that true??

The pertussis vaccine for adolescents and adults (Tdap) is fairly new--approved in 2005. The vaccine manufacturers understandably have been doing a lot of marketing to get people to use their product. It's also been in the news because there are a lot more pertussis cases than would be expected in a highly vaccinated population. People tend to assume it's because there are more people not vaccinating, but even the CDC admits that's not the reason.

Most children and babies 2 months and older have gotten at least one pertussis vaccine, so it follows that most babies and children who get pertussis have been vaccinated. People like to think that the vaccine at least makes it more mild. When their vaccinated child gets pertussis and it is horrible, they say, "Just think how bad it would have been without the vaccine!" But my unvaccinated child had pertussis, and it wasn't any worse than other pertussis experiences I've read about. And when I learned about sodium ascorbate in the middle of the illness, it made a huge difference.

[fruitfulmomma]

Pertussis... I haven't seen anything beyond anecdote regarding the number of vaxxed vs. unvaxxed getting it so I am hesitant to repeat it as such, but it is certainly plausible that more vaxxed kids get it. 

What I have read from officials and pro-vax websites is that it is cyclical, so this outbreak is normal, and that non-vaxxers are not responsible, rather that the vax does not work as well as they'd like. 

One thing I read on webmd last time, and no I don't have a link, so take it for what you will, is that some of the parents whose babies died in the CA outbreak were treating them with aspirin which is very risky and could have contributed to their death.

I have a 3 week old and we are choosing to stay home mostly and limit our outings to places where there are not a lot of children for now. Due to family health history I don't think dtap is an option for us even if we did favor vaxxes.

[ericaf]

Interesting. And that all makes sense.

Okay, I'm going to get on the horn with the hospital and my Dr. I'm a very good advocate for myself, so even if it wasn't fixed on paper... I could absolutely see myself screaming across the room to not do it. Lol.

I tend to follow most of what my Mom did with me. Yes, it was 31 years ago... but I feel like it wasn't so medicated then which I am much more comfortable with. I'm definitely not a non-vax person, but I'm certainly not a pro-vax person. I feel like I'm sort of middle of the road, and err on the side of caution. Any other tidbits you ladies have for me about the regular scheduled vaccines? I don't really understand also why babies get chicken pox and flu vaccines? When I was little, I got the chicken pox, and I'm fine. Flu vaccine, I've never had one... and had the flu 2x in my entire life. Neither was that bad.

Sometimes I just find it hard to advocate for myself without "offending" the Dr. Yes, they're my Dr... but I'm not just going to go with whatever they say and not think twice about it.

[ericaf]

I should also add... my DH is definitely pro-vaccine and whatever the Dr says, kinda guy. So that adds a wrench into things for me. He has a friend who is an infectious disease nurse and is very busy in his ear saying the baby needs every vaccine ever. Especially whooping cough. Now he's paranoid that he doesn't want anyone in the room with the baby who doesn't have the vaccine. Which makes zippo sense to me.

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by ericaf 

I don't really understand also why babies get chicken pox and flu vaccines?

The chickenpox vaccine was put onto the schedule based on a cost analysis. Merck lobbyists managed to convince the ACIP (Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices) that the chickenpox vaccine would be good for the economy because parents wouldn't have to take time off work to care for kids home from school with chickenpox.

[MichelleZB]

Originally Posted by ericaf 

I don't really understand also why babies get chicken pox and flu vaccines? When I was little, I got the chicken pox, and I'm fine. Flu vaccine, I've never had one... and had the flu 2x in my entire life. Neither was that bad.

A couple of reasons for the chicken pox vaccine. One is that those who have had chicken pox have that herpes zoster virus for life, and it can come back and give you shingles. So all of us who have had chicken pox as kids (I did too!) are at risk of shingles. They think that by avoiding chicken pox, it will reduce shingles, though of course the vaccine hasn't been out long enough for the long-term test.

Chicken pox wasn't fatal in your case, or in mine, and it rarely is. Still, it can kill children. My husband's brother went blind from a chicken pox complication. So it's not without risks, though they are small. The idea is that the chicken pox vaccine is nowhere near as dangerous as actual chicken pox.

Same idea with the flu. It can be fatal, especially in the young and elderly

Some people decide to take that risk and not vaccinate, of course. That's just the rationale behind it, or one of them.

[ma2two]

Originally Posted by MichelleZB 

A couple of reasons for the chicken pox vaccine. One is that those who have had chicken pox have that herpes zoster virus for life, and it can come back and give you shingles. So all of us who have had chicken pox as kids (I did too!) are at risk of shingles. They think that by avoiding chicken pox, it will reduce shingles, though of course the vaccine hasn't been out long enough for the long-term test.

This was NOT one of the reasons for putting it on the schedule, because people have the virus in their bodies for life if they have chickenpox OR the chickenpox vaccine, which is a live virus vaccine. Shingles used to be an old person's disease, but now vaccinated kids are getting it because they have the virus in their bodies, but their immunity to it is not as strong. I'd say that's a huge reason to avoid the chickenpox vaccine. I made sure my kids got natural chickenpox, and I look for a chickenpox party every several years in order to boost their (and my) immunity. What I am doing is the best way to avoid shingles. (Unless of course, someone refuses the vaccine and manages to avoid natural exposure their entire lives).

[HouseofPeace]

On Vit-K-

the vit-k shot is for a rare liver disorder that causes the bleeding out.  *and now i can't find those articles and it's all about low Vit K and bleeding out*!  well, making sure your diet is high in Vit K never hurts.  my son had bleeding on his brain and seizures after birth, and we never got the shot b/c THAT WAS NOT WHAT IT WAS FOR ACCORDING TO THE NICU.  We were at Boston Children's and I kept asking "is he at risk for this bleeding disorder?" and the only answer I could get was that he was at risk for not having enough Vit K.  Not convincing.  He was supposed to have permanent brain damage from the blood clotting on his brain that would affect his motor skills and development.  He is perfectly normal.  I think it's because his blood never clotted, and his brain healed.  They said the word 'miracle' at his 12 month check up when he was crawling and drawing, looking at his MRI with blood all over the parts of his brain that should have been damaged.  I really wonder if the low vit-K in newborns is beneficial to them.

http://www.vaclib.org/basic/vitamin-k.htm

[emmy526]

Originally Posted by ericaf 

Love all this info. I am in NJ... so I do believe I have the choice in getting the vitamin K, Hep B and eye antibiotics. I didn't have to sign the paper I did, but the more I think about it... the more I don't want what I signed for! Of courseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Also, what you you guys think of the whole whooping cough craze? I understand it's "coming back" maybe a bit... but also that it is more diagnosed in babies/people who HAD the vaccine. Is that true??

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/6/5/00-0512_article.htm

Why Whooping Cough Vaccine Does Not Work As Advertised

http://www.everydayhealth.com/cold-and-flu/0719/whooping-cough-epidemic-increases-cases-by-tenfold.aspx?xid=aol_eh-news_19_20120716_&aolcat=HLT&icid=maing-grid7

 

http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/_blog/Hilary's_Desk/post/Whooping_cough_What_is_it_that_they_don't_get_about_fail/

Whooping cough: What is it that they don't get about "fail"?

[Mishi7]

Did you know that the Vit. K doesn't have to be delivered as an injection?

None of my children have received the shot, nor has my granddaughter but when my grandson was born his father was quite anxious about it.  I questioned the nurse in front of him and she was quite supportive of my concerns.  She said that they like to give the dose all in one shot (despite risks) because that was the only way they could be sure that the baby would get enough Vit K.  However she was very helpful and gave us the equivalent 3 oral doses that had to be taken at intervals over 2 days.  The reason for the injection was because they didn't trust parents to make sure baby got the other 2 doses especially since some - like my daughter - were healthy enough to leave the hospital after only one day with the final dose to administer at home.