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Newborn vaccines? Eye drops, vitamin K, and Hep B?? - Page 2

post #21 of 131

You might find this interesting...... This is just my opinion but I've done a lot of reasearch over the years and I think that the debate is pretty much whether to administer a vaccine with potential side-effects or not to administer the vaccine and risk serious side-effects of disease.

 

It isn't quite that simple.  I really think that avoiding problems whether or not you choose to vaccinate means putting in some work.  This is just one person's story but I think it's a good one.  In my case, I started preparing for my children's healthy immune system before conception.  Lots of good healthy food, daily vitamins and regular exercise.  (Although I think it's never too late if you don't start this early)

 

During pregnancy, more of the same and with my daughter, I was asked to take part in a study on the health of mothers during pregnancy and it's effect on asthma on their children.  This meant keeping a diary of any sickness I had during pregnancy which was nil.  The study then got extended to the first 2 years of my daughter's life where I had to keep a diary of any upsets to her immune system and what I thought the reason was.  The only thing I was able to record was that when she was teething, she would sometimes have a little bit of a runny nose, but her teeth would just pop up with no crying or any trouble at all.

 

I should definitely mention that she was breastfed for that two years and the vitamins and good diet continued.  I believe that any germ she was exposed to was filtered through me and her immune system was protected.  You also should know that she was only immunised once - a delayed immunisation at 6 months where she screamed and had a temperature for 3 days so that was the last one she ever had to this day.  I regret giving in to the pressure of my in-laws but I think that the delay, breastfeeding and good food definitely protected her.  Her brother was 3 years old at the time and his reaction was a fever and the quietest I ever saw him as a child.  Possibly his reaction was less because he was older and his immune system was more mature.  I'm not saying that every child would get this but maybe we were genetically susceptible to having a reaction.

 

So at the same time my sister had 2 children who received every vaccine going.  She did breastfeed and look after herself, although I don't know if she took vitamins.  Compared to my children who never got more than a runny nose (a healthy sign of fighting off a bug) her children had sickness after sickness after sickness, ear infections (including grommits), stomach problems, chest infections, etc.

 

My other sister who didn't take care of herself very well and wasn't particularly healthy also had her children immunised and they are constantly sick - every time I hear from her at least one of them is sick.  Oh! ...and my nephew has a form of autism - Asperger's syndrome.

 

On the other hand I made no effort to limit exposure to  childhood diseases - my kids did get most of the childhood diseases but you would never have known they were sick other than slight rashes.  They only had 4 actual pox from chicken pox shared through 3 children.  On the other hand I caught chicken pox at the same time even though I was immunised as a child. They didn't get Mumps but I believe all my family are naturally immune to it because no-one has ever caught it even with exposure.  I believe that the exposure to these mostly harmless (to healthy children) diseases 'tuned up' their innume systems and made them stronger. 

 

My family are particularly susceptible to asthma and eczema but interestingly my children have never had any of these nor any other kind of allergy.  When my daughter who was involved in the study turned 12 we were invited to take part in an extention of the study.  My husband, daughter and I went to the childrens hospital and had a check-up, lung tests and allergy tests.  I was allergic to dust mites, my husband to dust mites and cats but our daughter had no sign of any allergies at all.  The doctor was happy to report that my family was "boringly healthy".

 

I truly believe that the decision to immunise is purely an individual decision - there might be some reasons why it's a good idea in some children (heart defect?) but it should be looked at on an individual basis.  If the risk to health is higher than the risk of not immunising or vice versa then the parents have the right to be fully informed and make the choice without pressure one way or another.  No-one should be forced to do something that they aren't sure about.  Also a delayed decision is not such a bad idea - when Japan started immunising children at the age of 2 years instead of 2-3 months they noticed changes to the numbers of autism cases and cot deaths.

 

Sorry for the rave but I like to share my own experiences in case they can encourage people to do their own research and make a decision based on knowledge of consequences either way.  Hearing someone else's experience got me researching too.  Also anything I can do to encourage Mums to be healthy during pregnancy and breastfeed is good too.

post #22 of 131

Hi,

 

I think that the issue with the new tdap vaccine was that it was designed to reduce side effects, however in doing so the immunological response was reduced. Also, adults are not very good at getting booster shots and act as a reservoir for the pertussis bacterium.

 

The CDC has produced a nice graph showing whooping cough incidence since 1922 here: http://www.cdc.gov/media/Pertussis%20Cases_1922_2011_accessed%20July%205%202012[1].pdf

post #23 of 131

Hi

 

The issue with chickenpox is that it is normally fairly mild however it can be serious or fatal in some cases, particularly people with an impaired immune system (e.g. people with leukemia, organ transplant). These people are normally not vaccinated and are at even greater risk during epidemics. So if the overall incidence of chicken pox can be reduced in the population, the most vulnerable people are also protected.

 

I like to back up my case with data, so here is a report from the CDC on chickenpox mortality in the US before and after vaccine introduction. Around 100 deaths from chickenpox per year are prevented in the US after the introduction of the vaccine. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21788222

 

Another paper is about the introduction of the vaccine in Taiwan, looking at cases in children. The hospitalization rate for chickenpox in children halved in only a few years after vaccine introduction. There are some nice graphs here that give a more epidemiological view of what happens when a particular age group is vaccinated: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3265566/?tool=pubmed

post #24 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by nutritionjulia View Post

Hi

 

The issue with chickenpox is that it is normally fairly mild however it can be serious or fatal in some cases, particularly people with an impaired immune system (e.g. people with leukemia, organ transplant). These people are normally not vaccinated and are at even greater risk during epidemics. So if the overall incidence of chicken pox can be reduced in the population, the most vulnerable people are also protected.

 

 

 

Varicella is given between 12 and 15 months - therefore the only people with who could not receive the varicella vaccine are those whose health issues developed prior to 15 months.  I do not know what percentage of the population that is.

 

An interesting ethical question (to me) is whether everyone should have to be immunized to protect the very few.  If vaccines were without side effects, this would be a no-brainer.  However they do have side effects - and figuring out just how often a child has a serious side effect from a vaccine is a very tricky thing.  There are the vaccine inserts (which are sometimes quite illuminating!) and stories abound across the internet on how health care professionals dismissed parental reports of vaccine reactions.  VAERS admits that only a percentage of vax reactions are ever reported.  

 

It seems like about 2% of people who get the chicken pox vaccine go on to develop chicken pox from the vaccine.   I know they have fewer spots, but are still contagious.  

 

http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/chickenpox-varicella-vaccine?page=2  

post #25 of 131

There is a lot of information surrounding the history of these procedures and why you shoudl or shouldn't receive them.  I found this dr to be very helpful: https://www.facebook.com/WhatYourPediatricianDoesntKnow

Also, if you are going to refuse any procedures, make sure you have the documentation /consents/refusals you need ahead of time, have it written in your birth klan.  Everything happens so quickly after birth.  You have the right to refuse and and all procedures they want to do with your baby, no matter how "standard" they are. 

 

I saw you are in NJ, I wanted to let you know that you do not have the right to refuse the vit K injection in NY in case you were to happened to deliver there.

post #26 of 131

The other people who have not been vaccinated are those aged over 15 months at the time the vaccine was introduced who have not subsequently received a vaccination.

 

Before I had my daughter, I thought that chicken pox was mild and something that was inconvenient but not really serious. I thought it would be over-reacting to get the vaccine. After I read about the number of deaths prevented since the vaccine was introduced, I changed my mind. I would gladly trade the larger and more serious risks that getting the full-blown chickenpox virus entails with the relatively minor risks that the vaccine poses.

 

The VAERS is incomplete, and the information it does contain is rather sketchy. I looked into it a bit after a friend was concerned about the HPV vaccine. The serious adverse events in the system, many of which happened in people with underlying disease, had mostly rather tenuous links to the vaccine administration. It's true that only a small percentage of adverse reactions are reported, however many of the reports in there link vaccination with a reaction that occurred oftentimes months later, or duplicates. It is useful to record the adverse events in a system like the VAERS but very specialized medical and epidemiological skills are needed to analyze the data. It was very educational to go through the adverse events and see how the results were being twisted to scare people away from vaccines.

post #27 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by nutritionjulia View Post

 

 

The VAERS is incomplete, and the information it does contain is rather sketchy. I looked into it a bit after a friend was concerned about the HPV vaccine. The serious adverse events in the system, many of which happened in people with underlying disease, had mostly rather tenuous links to the vaccine administration. It's true that only a small percentage of adverse reactions are reported, however many of the reports in there link vaccination with a reaction that occurred oftentimes months later, or duplicates. It is useful to record the adverse events in a system like the VAERS but very specialized medical and epidemiological skills are needed to analyze the data. It was very educational to go through the adverse events and see how the results were being twisted to scare people away from vaccines.

My point is that it is very difficult to know what the chances of an adverse reaction are - and frankly, the above just further proves it.

 

If you want to give your children the chicken pox vaccine, go for it.  I don't consider chicken pox worrisome enough for me to consider it.  I actually wish less people gave the chicken pox vaccine as the vaccine seems to increase the risk of shingles (people are no longer having their immunity bumped due to exposure to wild CP) - and shingles is a far scarier and less pleasant disease than chicken pox. I can get a link if you like.

 

It will be interesting to see whether or not the varicella vaccine confers lifelong immunity - it is looking like some vaccines do not (pertussis - obviously, but now people are saying it wanes after just three yearsdizzy.gif, and mumps seems to be on the rise in college age students).  Chicken pox is not fun as an adult and adults are notorious for not getting boosters.   It may be better for the health of the masses if kids did get chicken pox during childhood.  

 

Edited to add:  you think VAERS twists data to scare people away from vaccinating??


Edited by kathymuggle - 8/7/12 at 5:45pm
post #28 of 131

Completely agree with nutritionjulia , CP is NOT a harmless disease .

I had CP as a child and was sick for many weeks and also suffering from a kidney infection as a complication , my 4 oldest kids had it at the same time ( son 1 must have brought it home from school ) and while the 3 boys were doing reasonably well with it , even though they felt quite sick , my 7-month-old ( exclusively breastfed ) daughter was ill for several weeks , spend 4 days in ICU anjd almost died .

Plus I met another boy , who contracted it , when I was in rehab with my oldest son with an unrelated issue and he had severe brain damage , because the virus invaded his brain .

So needless to say , my DD2 got the shot as soon as possible and my youngest will as well .

Now for the hep shot , I agree there is no need to do it at birth unless you are infected , but later I would definitely get it , since hepatitis can lead to liver cancer and other problems and it is not that hard to pick up .

As for the vitamin  K , if you had a forceps or vacuum delivery , I would definitely get it , since that can increase the bleeding risk for her  .

Oh and yes , I also believe . that VAERS twist data to scare people away from vaccinations   

post #29 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

Completely agree with nutritionjulia , CP is NOT a harmless disease .

I had CP as a child and was sick for many weeks and also suffering from a kidney infection as a complication , my 4 oldest kids had it at the same time ( son 1 must have brought it home from school ) and while the 3 boys were doing reasonably well with it , even though they felt quite sick , my 7-month-old ( exclusively breastfed ) daughter was ill for several weeks , spend 4 days in ICU anjd almost died .

Plus I met another boy , who contracted it , when I was in rehab with my oldest son with an unrelated issue and he had severe brain damage , because the virus invaded his brain .

So needless to say , my DD2 got the shot as soon as possible and my youngest will as well .

 

Oh and yes , I also believe . that VAERS twist data to scare people away from vaccinations   

 

Well, lets balance this out with a far, far, far more likely scenario.

 

I had CP as a child.  I barely had a fever and had very few spots.  I remember watching a lot of tv as I was contagious and not really allowed out of the house.  DS had it at 4 or so - few spots, no fever.  DD was about 4 motnhs old or so when she got it - little to no fever, lots of spots (one near her eyeball - that freaked me out!)  she does have a scar or two. No biggie to her or me. 

 

VAERS twists data?  I am off to investigate but now I have heard it all!


Edited by kathymuggle - 8/7/12 at 5:46pm
post #30 of 131

Tonttu:

 

From the VAERS homepage:

 

"The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) is a national vaccine safety surveillance program co-sponsored by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA). "

 

Here is the FAQ page for VAERS:

http://vaers.hhs.gov/about/faqs

 

I am going to assume you goofed when you said VAERS twists data (maybe you were thinking of something else?). If I am wrong, please come on and clarify what you meant by VAERS twists data.

post #31 of 131

Well , for the sake of peace , maybe not twist , but definitely overplay the risks . 

After all , most compensation for " vaccine damage " was really only awarded out of pity for the parents , not because there has ever been a real link between vaccination and problems a child has .

It´s just so easy to blame the vaccine , when a kid acts out of the " normal " range 

Plus , to really , objectively evaluate the side effects of vaccinations , we would have to thoroughly check every single person before they get vacced and then see , what new problems arise right after the vaccination , not weeks or months later of course , before we could even BEGIN to  make any conclusions .

And I also want to clarify , that I am ( of curse ) a pro - vaccer , but that does not mean , I blindly follow everything every doc tells me to do . 

For example , I never got the flu vaccine , since I really see no use in it , but there are many others , that for my own sake and that of my children , I would never forego , like tetanus or MMR  .

And I had an adverse reaction to the pertussis vacc , when I was a teenager , of course , I still got the booster years later and suffered no ill effects to it , which proves my point yet AGAIN , that having a so-called " adverse reaction " is in the vast majority of cases simply a coincidence . 

post #32 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

 

And I had an adverse reaction to the pertussis vacc , when I was a teenager , of course , I still got the booster years later and suffered no ill effects to it , which proves my point yet AGAIN , that having a so-called " adverse reaction " is in the vast majority of cases simply a coincidence . 

Just wondering how YOUR individual reaction proves that "a so-called 'adverse reaction' is in the vast majority of cases simply a coincidence."

 

That doesn't even prove that YOUR individual reaction was a coincidence.  It proves nothing.  It may have been a coincidence.  

 

Or (far more likely) you may have reacted to something that was in the pertussis vacc when you were a teenager, that was not in the reformulated version you received years later.

post #33 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

Well , for the sake of peace , maybe not twist , but definitely overplay the risks . 

After all , most compensation for " vaccine damage " was really only awarded out of pity for the parents , not because there has ever been a real link between vaccination and problems a child has . 

 

You do realize that your opinions are extremely radical, and I wonder if this isn't the best forum to express them. But I am all for free speech, I think that voicing the opinion that vaccine compensation was awarded by the government out of pity is very disrespectful to the individuals involved. You do know that the US government as given out over two billion dollars out of pity

 

It´s just so easy to blame the vaccine , when a kid acts out of the " normal " range 

 

Do you honestly believe that the US government has doled out all this money in vaccine compensation to kids that act out of the "normal" range?

 


Plus , to really , objectively evaluate the side effects of vaccinations , we would have to thoroughly check every single person before they get vacced and then see , what new problems arise right after the vaccination , not weeks or months later of course , before we could even BEGIN to  make any conclusions .

And I also want to clarify , that I am ( of curse ) a pro - vaccer , but that does not mean , I blindly follow everything every doc tells me to do . 

For example , I never got the flu vaccine , since I really see no use in it , but there are many others , that for my own sake and that of my children , I would never forego , like tetanus or MMR  .

 

So collateral damage is okay, because it is too much bother to research those children at risk of vaccine adverse affects? Although am I right in the assumption you don't really believe in vaccine damage, so why go to the trouble anyway?

 

 

And I had an adverse reaction to the pertussis vacc , when I was a teenager , of course , I still got the booster years later and suffered no ill effects to it , which proves my point yet AGAIN , that having a so-called " adverse reaction " is in the vast majority of cases simply a coincidence . 

 

This is no proof that vaccine adverse reactions are coincidence. You have just admitted your had an adverse reaction to the pertussis vax, so adverse reactions to vaccines do occur. 

post #34 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taximom5 View Post

That doesn't even prove that YOUR individual reaction was a coincidence.  It proves nothing.  It may have been a coincidence.  

 

Or (far more likely) you may have reacted to something that was in the pertussis vacc when you were a teenager, that was not in the reformulated version you received years later.

 

I agree. My eldest DD had adverse reactions to her first two DTP shots at 4 and 6 months, she experienced a high fever and inconsolable crying (the encephalitic cry), she did not experience these reactions with her third shot at 9 months. That doesn't mean she didn't have a vaccine reaction to the DTP, and I can assure you those reactions were not coincidence.

post #35 of 131

To the OP:

 

I am in South Jersey and had *almost* no problem denying the three newborn procedures ( although we ended up doing oral Vit K anyway because of some bruising at birth). I would be VERY careful about the Hep B shot however, as that has been given out without parental consent. For various reasons our DD never left mine or my fiance's presence and I believe this is the best way to guarantee no unwanted vax's (as well as promote bonding!). We did face some eye-rolling and condescension about our unwillingness to vax but it wasn't anything above or beyond what I was expecting.

 

I hope you have a great birth and a healthy little one!

post #36 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericaf View Post

 Any other tidbits you ladies have for me about the regular scheduled vaccines? I don't really understand also why babies get chicken pox and flu vaccines? When I was little, I got the chicken pox, and I'm fine. Flu vaccine, I've never had one... and had the flu 2x in my entire life. Neither was that bad.

 

Sometimes I just find it hard to advocate for myself without "offending" the Dr. Yes, they're my Dr... but I'm not just going to go with whatever they say and not think twice about it.

As a FTM before my DD was born in Jan I did TONS (upward of 150 hours just during the second trimester) of research about vax's. If you want to PM me I can send you a list of websites I thought had good information and were also good jumping-off points.

 

I ended up deciding not to vax at all but that is my personal decision and is certainly not the same for everyone. One of the largest factors for me was the amount of vax's and mercury I received in my vax's as a child ( I was born in '88 so I received the highest mercury load of vax's) and some bad reactions I had to them and what the effects could be for my DD- obviously your mileage will vary on this. 

 

I think the most important thing to remember in the whole vaccine decision is your DD can always receive them at a later date- but you can never undo shots she's already had. 

post #37 of 131

Looks like everything I said , was taken out of proportion . 

No , I don´t believe collateral damage is okay , but that is why I vacc my family , because I do not want the collateral damage from vaccine preventable illnesses

And I never had a reaction to a vaccine , except one time ( maybe ) and I know for a fact , that I was vaccinated against pertussis as a child . I am sure , that the ingredients in the vaccine then , 39 years ago , were no better than they are now .

Surely , it makes sense to research the side effects of vaccines , to make sure that we improve their safety and decrease the side effects to a minimum , but it sometimes does seem to be , that people make it easy for themselves to point a finger " oh , he feels ... , must be the vaccine he got 2 weeks ago " " oh he can´t behave , must be ADHD " 

And to Mirzam , there may not be much proof , that vaccine reactions are a coincidence , but there is also no proof that they are not 

post #38 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

And to Mirzam , there may not be much proof , that vaccine reactions are a coincidence , but there is also no proof that they are not 

If going through a trial with the vaccine court to prove that a vaccine caused your child's injury is not proof; literally having to prove it in a court of law- I'm not sure what you would consider proof.

 

I think Hannah Poling is a great example, are you familiar with her case? She has a mitochondrial disorder which is present in at least 0.01% of the population. Her mother has the same disorder (obviously because mitochondria are passed down through the mother) and is a healthy intelligent woman. A nurse and a lawyer to be exact. Her family PROVED that Hannah's "autistic like symptoms" were caused by the vaccine interfering with her mitochondrial disorder- which on its own would not have caused problems. They PROVED this during a court case that took 8 years- a pretty darn long time for no one to work out that it was just a coincidence. 

post #39 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

Looks like everything I said , was taken out of proportion . 
No , I don´t believe collateral damage is okay , but that is why I vacc my family , because I do not want the collateral damage from vaccine preventable illnesses.

You seem to consider only collateral damage from vaccine-preventable illnesses. What about collateral damage from vaccines? Are you aware that the US government has admitted 2000 cases of vaccine-induced severe brain damage? And that a disproportionate amount of those cases included severe autism? And that vaccine-induced lupus has also been admitted, including a fatal case? And in France, vaccine-induced MS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

And I never had a reaction to a vaccine , except one time ( maybe ) and I know for a fact , that I was vaccinated against pertussis as a child . I am sure , that the ingredients in the vaccine then , 39 years ago , were no better than they are now .

You are sure? Really? You don't seem to be aware that the ingredients in the pertussis vaccine are very different in today's version, as opposed to 39 years ago.
post #40 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmandaT View Post

If going through a trial with the vaccine court to prove that a vaccine caused your child's injury is not proof; literally having to prove it in a court of law- I'm not sure what you would consider proof.

I think Hannah Poling is a great example, are you familiar with her case? She has a mitochondrial disorder which is present in at least 0.01% of the population. Her mother has the same disorder (obviously because mitochondria are passed down through the mother) and is a healthy intelligent woman. A nurse and a lawyer to be exact. Her family PROVED that Hannah's "autistic like symptoms" were caused by the vaccine interfering with her mitochondrial disorder- which on its own would not have caused problems. They PROVED this during a court case that took 8 years- a pretty darn long time for no one to work out that it was just a coincidence. 

And there have been studies (previously posted on MDC) showing that medications can CAUSE mitochondrial disorders. Wouldn't it be interesting if both Hannah's and her mother's mito disorder
were CAUSED by vaccines? It would certainly make sense--Hannah's mother, whose disorder did not affect her, only received a few vaccines over many years , while Hannah received vaccines for 9 diseases in 1 day.
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