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Why not spanking ? - Page 3

post #41 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by To-Fu View Post

 

I haven't read yet one good reason to ever hit a child, which is, I think, because THERE ISN'T ONE.  Especially not if you call yourself an attachment parent.

 

Yup. Typically, parent hit because they've lost their temper and dont feel like they have control over the situation. It seems like they hit, and then they justify it by calling it discipline,because they cant say "I made a really bad decision and hit my kid and there was no reason for my behavior."

post #42 of 176

I've thought about this since reading this thread and a few more comments.

 

Spanking is very popular among the Baby boomer generation.  As a child I remember in public when a child misbehaves it was common

practice to smack them.  In fact the other momma's would give you dirty looks till you silenced your child. 

 

A generation that condoned "Children should be seen but not heard."  Translation a baby boomer would beat the living daylights out of you

if you so much as breath the wrong way.

 

So baby boomers condoned spanking it was their norm.

My generation Y banned it!  Made it an offense if anyone mother so much as laid a hand on their LO.  Instant jail, child taken away, dcfs.

 

I'm not saying all baby boomers are bad.  From the baby boomers that I grew up around i.e Mother, her friends, aunts, etc.  Spanking was their standard

practice of discipline. 

post #43 of 176

To be fair, most gen x-ers dont spank either. Where is this info coming from as far as "banning". Here in KY it is not illegal to spank your kid as long as you are not "causing death, serious physical injury, disfigurement, extreme pain, or extreme mental distress."

 

Here is a list of the laws state-by-state:

http://kidjacked.com/legal/spanking_law.asp

post #44 of 176

Adaline'sMama wrote:

To be fair, most gen x-ers dont spank either. Where is this info coming from as far as "banning". Here in KY it is not illegal to spank your kid as long as you are not "causing death, serious physical injury, disfigurement, extreme pain, or extreme mental distress."

 

Here is a list of the laws state-by-state:

http://kidjacked.com/legal/spanking_law.asp

 

 

FYI:  Google "States that banned spanking"

 

http://blog.sfgate.com/sfmoms/2011/06/23/a-texas-judge-declares-spanking-a-child-a-crime/

post #45 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulu0910 View Post

 

 

FYI:  Google "States that banned spanking"

 

http://blog.sfgate.com/sfmoms/2011/06/23/a-texas-judge-declares-spanking-a-child-a-crime/

Based on the article you cited, spanking still appears to be legal in Texas.  It rises to a criminal issue if the child is injured.  What exactly "injured" means remains to be seen and I suppose it is handled on a case by case basis.  Texas law allows for force, but not "deadly force." 

 

Apparently the Texas woman used too much force which landed her in trouble.  That particular case, though, didn't make spanking against the law, even though I admire the judge for taking a stance.  The criminal code has to be changed by legislature, not judges. 

post #46 of 176

I still remember to this day 35 years later , when I was 3 years old and my Mother kept telling me , not to run across the street in front of my Grandparents house . I also still remember clearly , that I thought , I will not stop trying until she smacks me on the butt , no matter what she says .

And I didn´t stop and got smacked and that´s when I figured , she is serious 

I am against violence in general , but a spank is a far cry from that and SOMETIMES there is a time and a place for it 

post #47 of 176

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post #48 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post

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And according to Mothering's Terms of Use, users cannot advocate physical punishment.  So, here, there is "no time and place" for it.

 

 

Quote:
"Mothering.com is the website of natural family living and advocates natural solutions to parenting challenges. We host discussion of nighttime parenting, loving discipline, gentle weaning, natural birth, homebirth, successful breastfeeding, alternative and complementary home remedies, informed consent and many other topics from a natural point of view. We are not interested, however, in hosting discussions that advocate crying it out, harsh sleep training, physical punishment, formula feeding, elective cesarean section, routine infant medical circumcision, or mandatory vaccinations as a parenting philosophy. We do not tolerate any type of discrimination in the discussions, including but not limited to racism, heterosexism, classism, sizeism, religious bigotry, or discrimination toward the disabled. We will not host discussions that involve explicit sexual references and are cautious about discussions on volatile topics such as abortion, religion and race. We do not host abortion debate. "

 

 

 

 

Also, I'd love to see an article where a white person was being prosecuted for spanking in the south. If Texas really feels that way, they should change their laws. Their books still currently state that you can "use physical force on a child as long as no injury occurs" , basically you can spank them, you just cant leave a mark.

post #49 of 176

Adaline'sMama--- I have to say one of my biggest pet peeves to any argument is throwing a race card.  Really???  If you google "mom's arrested for spanking her child."  You would find the mother's "race/nationality" is all across the board.  The Texas case was merely "ONE" out of pages upon pages of different cases.  Her nationality, race, religious standing has absolute no bearing in this conversation.  After all correct me if I'm wrong this topic is about "SPANKING" now isn't it?  Wouldn't one be for a law that punishes a mother who spanks their child?  I for one don't condone spanking!   
 

post #50 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

I still remember to this day 35 years later , when I was 3 years old and my Mother kept telling me , not to run across the street in front of my Grandparents house . I also still remember clearly , that I thought , I will not stop trying until she smacks me on the butt , no matter what she says .
And I didn´t stop and got smacked and that´s when I figured , she is serious 
I am against violence in general , but a spank is a far cry from that and SOMETIMES there is a time and a place for it 

If if your family your mother had shown she wasn't serious about something unless she spanked you, then it makes sense you would think this. "If she really means it, she'll spank me, so if she doesn't spank me, she must not really mean it." I would think that's another good reason to NOT spank, and also a reason to re-think rules and expectations.I don't have any expectations I'm not serious about. If I'm not serious about it, my kids can do what they want. If I am serious about it, then they know it (and without any amount of violence.) But I am careful to only make rules that are really important, so they don't have tons of rules to worry about, and they don't have to wonder which I'm serious about.
post #51 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post


If if your family your mother had shown she wasn't serious about something unless she spanked you, then it makes sense you would think this. "If she really means it, she'll spank me, so if she doesn't spank me, she must not really mean it." I would think that's another good reason to NOT spank, and also a reason to re-think rules and expectations.I don't have any expectations I'm not serious about. If I'm not serious about it, my kids can do what they want. If I am serious about it, then they know it (and without any amount of violence.) But I am careful to only make rules that are really important, so they don't have tons of rules to worry about, and they don't have to wonder which I'm serious about.

Exactly! My mother is not a spanker, so I had other ways of telling when she was serious. She had a certain tone of voice, a certain way of saying something, that communicated to me that I had hit a hard limit.

 

As for running across the street: my mom was handicapped and could not run after us if we ran across the street and were in danger. She was so terrified of us running across the street and being run over that she always reacted very strongly and emotionally to it. We learned very early not to do it, unless we wanted a mother hugging us and sobbing everywhere.

post #52 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post


If if your family your mother had shown she wasn't serious about something unless she spanked you, then it makes sense you would think this. "If she really means it, she'll spank me, so if she doesn't spank me, she must not really mean it." I would think that's another good reason to NOT spank, and also a reason to re-think rules and expectations.I don't have any expectations I'm not serious about. If I'm not serious about it, my kids can do what they want. If I am serious about it, then they know it (and without any amount of violence.) But I am careful to only make rules that are really important, so they don't have tons of rules to worry about, and they don't have to wonder which I'm serious about.

No , my Mother was and is to this day , a wonderful  Mother and Grandmother to my kids . I admire her for everything she has done and still does for me and all of us to this day and I have a great deal of  respect for her as well . 

I do not beat my children nor do I advocate physical abuse , and I was never physically abused as a child . 

However as a young woman I was  , in my first marriage , so I really know the difference between a smack and a beating and there is a WORLD of difference between the two . 

And I don´t mean that as advocating spanking , which I would never do , that is a mere statement 

post #53 of 176

I think we're talking about authoritarian parenting vs.cooperative parenting. Sure, there's a difference between a smack and a beating, but for a small child even harsh words can be debilitating. I was brought up in an authoritarian home and I didn't know how to say no when I grew up and was conditioned to be compliant. I didn't even know how to make a decision.

 

I wanted a different relationship with my children. I learned that they, that all of us, have a good reason for their behavior. We have choices in conflict with children and adults. Children are, by nature, dependent--they cannot fulfill their own needs. When a child "misbehaves," it may be that she is simply frustrated by a legitimate need. She may be tired, hungry, or overwhelmed by a disruption of her routine; she may be feeling jealous, frustrated, confused, or afraid; or she may be simply too young to understand or to express her emotions. When we eliminate the symptoms of the problem by punishing, the problem does not go away.

 

Your child's behavior can teach you something about his needs, if you take the time to listen. Almost all acting out is a cry for help. Your child may be jealous, afraid, lonely, or in a situation that is out of his control. Often the child who is acting most unlovable is the most in need of love. 

 

Young children are naturally impatient, forgetful, stubborn, loud, messy, and demanding. They are childish. It is unrealistic to expect them to act in socially acceptable ways until they have the maturity to do so. Most youngsters under five do not have the language or cognitive skills needed to share or work our disagreements, so they fight or cry instead.

 

Even in the case of real danger--as when a child runs out into the road--you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

 

And, I find it illuminating that while we talk of some states outlawing spanking, 32 countries outlaw spanking! Sweden did so in 1979. Kenya in 2010. Republic of Congo in 2010. Sudan in 2011. I don't think it's any coincidence that we are such a violent and aggressive society when we condone spanking. 

post #54 of 176
I am commenting a little off topic, responding to the Baby Boom comment. Spanking, smacking and beating children has been around for a long time. The move away from physical punishment, in my observations, began sometime in the 1960s. I think, like many changes, it has taken time to increase popularity.
post #55 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonttu View Post

No , my Mother was and is to this day , a wonderful  Mother and Grandmother to my kids . I admire her for everything she has done and still does for me and all of us to this day and I have a great deal of  respect for her as well . 
I do not beat my children nor do I advocate physical abuse , and I was never physically abused as a child . 
However as a young woman I was  , in my first marriage , so I really know the difference between a smack and a beating and there is a WORLD of difference between the two . 
And I don´t mean that as advocating spanking , which I would never do , that is a mere statement 

I didn't mean your mother was mean. I'm sure she was using the tools she knew. There was a time when almost everyone spanked - nice parents and parents who weren't so nice. It was just the norm.

I was responding to you saying you decided that you would run across the street unless she spanked you. That is the behavior of a child used to being punished. You know what is right and wrong, what is acceptable or not, by whether you are punished. You know how wrong what you are doing is by how severely you are punished.

I see that as an argument against punishment. If that is your way of teaching not to do something, it ensures you will have to punish for your child to know what to do. You've established punishment (and in this case spanking) as your language.

Also, you have to escalate as they get older, and as they do worse things. A mild swat on the butt won't work for older children used to it, let alone jaded adolescents. Looking past the behavior at the problem instead of at the behavior, and then working with the child to solve that problem, requires no escalation. The language is language of cooperation and encourages the child to cooperate (and not hide behavior) as he/she grows up.

And also, as I was saying, if the only expectations you have exist for very strong reasons, you don't have to punish to explain why. When there are few rules, and they are only for very important reasons (like safety), it isn't that hard to get children to follow them because they can see the reasons for the rules themselves and they aren't constantly running up against rules to rebel against.
post #56 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peggy O'Mara View Post

I think we're talking about authoritarian parenting vs.cooperative parenting. Sure, there's a difference between a smack and a beating, but for a small child even harsh words can be debilitating. I was brought up in an authoritarian home and I didn't know how to say no when I grew up and was conditioned to be compliant. I didn't even know how to make a decision.

 

 

Even in the case of real danger--as when a child runs out into the road--you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

 

Peggy, I find this to be true on so many levels.  My DD is incredibly shaken by my own communication of fear.  DD at 5.5 has become an excellent street crosser, simply because she understands the gravity of certain choices (or ignoring safety).  She is so much more effected by my own dramatics, which are genuine.  My dramatics don't include physical contact (other than grabbing of arm to pull back).

 

You know, I'm just having a hard time with the concept that hitting (I don't care if it is a small smack) creates positive results.  It seems illogical to me that we (general we) sanction the hitting of children.  Assault in legal terms is the "intentional unwanted touching of others"...that's right..."intentional unwanted touching" and yet we still think that the spanking of children is okay?  If my boss gave me a light pat every time I committed a wrong in the workplace, he would be in court.  Why?  Because we have decided that personhood, bodily integrity and respect of the person is paramount.  For some reason that doesn't extend to children.  They are the last "property" in my opinion and we (general we) treat them as such.  It used to be okay to hit your wife when she didn't obey.  It was totally acceptable and even encouraged to maintain control over one's household.  Thank goodness we've moved from there, but cats and dogs and hamsters have more bodily integrity and rights than children, and it frustrates me to no end.


Edited by CatsCradle - 8/7/12 at 5:23pm
post #57 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post


You know, I'm just having a hard time with the concept that hitting (I don't care if it is a small smack) creates positive results.  It seems illogical to me that we (general we) sanction the hitting of children.  Assault in legal terms is the "intentional unwanted touching of others"...that's right..."intentional unwanted touching" and yet we still think that the spanking of children is okay?  If my boss gave me a light pat every time I committed a wrong in the workplace, he would be in court.  Why?  Because we have decided that personhood, bodily integrity and respect of the person is paramount.  For some reason that doesn't extend to children.  They are the last "property" in my opinion and we (general we) treat them as such.  It used to be okay to hit your wife when she didn't obey.  It was totally acceptable and even encouraged to maintain control over one's household.  Thank goodness we've moved from there, but cats and dogs and hamsters have more bodily integrity and rights than children, and it frustrates me to no end.

I agree. SmackIng and beating are not the same thing but they are on the same continuum of physical violence. Just because a smack doesn't leave the victim bloodied and bruised doesn't make it harmless or in any way ok.
post #58 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peggy O'Mara View Post

 

And, I find it illuminating that while we talk of some states outlawing spanking, 32 countries outlaw spanking! Sweden did so in 1979. Kenya in 2010. Republic of Congo in 2010. Sudan in 2011. I don't think it's any coincidence that we are such a violent and aggressive society when we condone spanking. 

Wow, I had no idea that so many countries outlawed it. I hope we can join that list soon.

 

 

 

Lulu, I dont want to argue with you or derail the thread to get on this topic, but people of color (and particularly immigrants in Texas and Arizona) have been prosecuted for SO many things that white people would never be prosecuted for. Im not saying that it's not good that they did prosecute, Im just saying htat until it's happening on a regular basis, Im not going to put much faith in it being enforced.

post #59 of 176

Unhappily I've spanked/smacked my son 2 times in his life.

 

The first time was because he ripped up a book and I was angry and I smacked him on the butt. I felt so horrible right after I did it that I started bawling like crazy and hugging him and telling him how sorry I was.

 

The 2nd time was when he ran into the road. We're always telling him to not run in the road. Stop. Look both ways before going into the road. (We even take him to the road to practice. We also tell him to not go/run into the road alone/without an adult.) That day he didn't bother. No amount of me yelling and carrying on stopped him. He almost got hit. He utterly failed to listen to a word I said. He payed me zero attention not matter how panicked I became. The faster I ran to him, the faster he ran off. When I got him I was in tears and I smacked him one across his butt while yelling and crying and carrying on. To this day when I raise my voice at him he will duck his head and scrunch down. This makes me feel like the smallest idiot to ever walk this earth. To know that I cause this type of reaction in my son when I raise my voice. It hurts my heart and makes me sad so now I try not to raise my voice at him. Which in turn means he ignores me and continues to do what he wants.

post #60 of 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamazee View Post


I was responding to you saying you decided that you would run across the street unless she spanked you. That is the behavior of a child used to being punished. You know what is right and wrong, what is acceptable or not, by whether you are punished. You know how wrong what you are doing is by how severely you are punished.
 

No , on the contrary , I was not being punished a lot . My Mother as well as my paternal Grandparents were the most loving and kind people , any child could wish to grow up around ! 

I just always felt , and still feel to this day , that a child needs to know , it´s the child , not another little adult , living in the house , and that the grown-ups make the rules .

That has nothing to do with authoritarian upbringing or child abuse , but that is how it works throughout society , there are those . that are in charge and those that make the rules and the sooner a child learns that , the better 

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