Why not spanking ? - Page 4

[mleawicks]

Originally Posted by To-Fu 

This is very well put!  I have similar feelings toward my various parents.  It is not how I want my own children to feel.

I really don't think there is any situation that calls for spanking.  For me or for anyone else.  It feels like a human rights issue.  I would stand up for anyone being bullied by someone bigger and stronger.  We are everything to our children.  They are helpless and vulnerable--please don't hit them.  There is no reason.  There are so many better tools at our disposal.  Behavior modification is a dated concept, anyway, and no one wants to live in a punitive environment. 

I haven't read yet one good reason to ever hit a child, which is, I think, because THERE ISN'T ONE.  Especially not if you call yourself an attachment parent.

Yurika47, you probably won't find a lot of support for spanking here.  Traditionally, Mothering speaks out against things like crying it out and physical punishment.  

mleawicks, why hit a child that's already scared after doing something unsafe? 

that would be the problem, their not scared and in that situation I want them to understand the danger. they can turn tail and run so fast for Rd or other danger and not be able to catch them. Had a freind who just told her son not to go to Rd. used other methoids. They are both died because the kid did not understand how unsafe it is. He would be an adult today. his mom ran to road to catch him. they were hit by a trackor trailer.

I was spanked as a kid. I did me no harm. I new my mom loved me from the other things we did. I think it has to do with the whole of how you parent. I have a friend from high school who was like many of you. spanked, yelled at but no love shown. She is very bitter. As I said depends on the whole of how you parent. I have 5 sibs and they all say like me. Spanking never hurt me. by the why my mom in my adult years till she passed was my best freind. I miss her much and she is the one that spanked me.

[tonttu]

Originally Posted by mleawicks 

that would be the problem, their not scared and in that situation I want them to understand the danger. they can turn tail and run so fast for Rd or other danger and not be able to catch them. Had a freind who just told her son not to go to Rd. used other methoids. They are both died because the kid did not understand how unsafe it is. He would be an adult today. his mom ran to road to catch him. they were hit by a trackor trailer.

I was spanked as a kid. I did me no harm. I new my mom loved me from the other things we did. I think it has to do with the whole of how you parent. I have a friend from high school who was like many of you. spanked, yelled at but no love shown. She is very bitter. As I said depends on the whole of how you parent. I have 5 sibs and they all say like me. Spanking never hurt me. by the why my mom in my adult years till she passed was my best freind. I miss her much and she is the one that spanked me.

Thank you , that is EXACTLY how I feel ! To this day , I am extremely close to my Mother and I miss both my Grandma and Grandpa more than I could put into words .

The very few times , I got spanked were the times , when I really deserved it and looking back I know , that my Mother did it , because she loved me so much and she cared for my well-being so much , that she really wanted to make sure , that she got her point across , like when I would not listen to anything she was saying , when I wanted to run across this busy street .

And that would have hurt me more than a little swat on my butt .

[starling&diesel]

Why are we even having this conversation?  The OP is clearly not a member of the Mothering community, or else she wouldn't be defending her decision to hit her child.  This community does not endorse hitting our children.  End of story.  

If you want help to find new and more gentle ways to parent, then great.  But to come here and incite this kind of BS and defend it, that's just rude.  I smell troll.

[MichelleZB]

Originally Posted by tonttu That has nothing to do with authoritarian upbringing or child abuse , but that is how it works throughout society , there are those . that are in charge and those that make the rules and the sooner a child learns that , the better 

On the contrary--I'd consider that pretty much the definition of "authoritarian." You are the parent, you have authority, you make the rules.

My parents were non-authoritarian in style. You'd never hear them saying something like, "My house, my rules." They thought of their house as my house, too--I lived there. They viewed their children as really small, kind of silly roommates--in need of guidance and advice, but not rules. We all had a shared responsibility to make the household work--or at least, that's what it seemed to us. In reality, they had more responsibility because they were wage-earning adults.

[Adaline'sMama]

starling&diesel- The OP has asked for opinions about this issue in a really good way, and I think she has taken the advice of most of the posters. She is a single mom, and is seemingly looking for different opinions so that she can make a choice. She even came back and thanked us for answering honestly and letting her know what we thought without being mean.

Since then, other posters have commented on how spanking has a time and a place. So, I think the past few pages actually have nothing to do with the OP.

[Adaline'sMama]

Originally Posted by Jarynsmom2006 

Thanks for all the replies ... and thank you for not attacking me lol. I have been told before I'm crazy or irresponsible ... I breastfed my son until he self weaned, he was 2. Ex's family thought I was nuts to go past 8 months. I was accused of being negligent because I refused to have him vaccinated, this is actually being used against me in the court issue actually. Anyway I know I'm not nor will I ever be a perfect parent, no one is. I just want to look at all options on every subject and go from there which I feel is best. There are several good points on here and I hope no one thought I meant people who don't spank their kids raise brats who are unruly, I was speaking from the few experiences. I just don't know what to do honestly. It's so hard with him going back and forth and I work swing shifts, 12 hrs. I have so much on my plate it seems and sometimes I just wanna crawl in a hole and get away because I feel incompetent. I want to do what's best for my son obviously. I guess maybe I'm just overwhelmed right now with work , we just moved into a new place abt a month ago and court is coming up. I feel like I TOO often take my frustrations out on my son, not spanking, but yelling then I feel like a total jerk afterwards . Being a mother much less a single mother is NOT easy for sure !!!

This was the post after her OP, and she doesnt seem to have come here stir up any drama, just looking for answers.

[luckiest]

Originally Posted by Peggy O'Mara 

I think we're talking about authoritarian parenting vs.cooperative parenting. Sure, there's a difference between a smack and a beating, but for a small child even harsh words can be debilitating. I was brought up in an authoritarian home and I didn't know how to say no when I grew up and was conditioned to be compliant. I didn't even know how to make a decision.

I wanted a different relationship with my children. I learned that they, that all of us, have a good reason for their behavior. We have choices in conflict with children and adults. Children are, by nature, dependent--they cannot fulfill their own needs. When a child "misbehaves," it may be that she is simply frustrated by a legitimate need. She may be tired, hungry, or overwhelmed by a disruption of her routine; she may be feeling jealous, frustrated, confused, or afraid; or she may be simply too young to understand or to express her emotions. When we eliminate the symptoms of the problem by punishing, the problem does not go away.

Your child's behavior can teach you something about his needs, if you take the time to listen. Almost all acting out is a cry for help. Your child may be jealous, afraid, lonely, or in a situation that is out of his control. Often the child who is acting most unlovable is the most in need of love. 

Young children are naturally impatient, forgetful, stubborn, loud, messy, and demanding. They are childish. It is unrealistic to expect them to act in socially acceptable ways until they have the maturity to do so. Most youngsters under five do not have the language or cognitive skills needed to share or work our disagreements, so they fight or cry instead.

Even in the case of real danger--as when a child runs out into the road--you can grab him, sit him down, look him in the eyes, and tell him why he must never do that again. The panic in your voice will communicate your message much more effectively than any spanking. You can be dramatic without being abusive.

And, I find it illuminating that while we talk of some states outlawing spanking, 32 countries outlaw spanking! Sweden did so in 1979. Kenya in 2010. Republic of Congo in 2010. Sudan in 2011. I don't think it's any coincidence that we are such a violent and aggressive society when we condone spanking. 

Aaaand Peggy nails it!!  I need to print out this whole post and post it on my fridge.  Can I share on Facebook?

[To-Fu]

I don't think anyone is arguing that we shouldn't have rules at home, or that the parent should not present herself as the adult in the relationship.

There are certainly ways to assert the hierarchy in the relationship with our kids without hitting them.  You can still be the big mama, you can still be alpha, and you can do it without hitting or yelling or doing time-outs.  I'd suggest the work of Gordon Neufeld as a starting point.

[transylvania_mom]

Originally Posted by mleawicks 

that would be the problem, their not scared and in that situation I want them to understand the danger. they can turn tail and run so fast for Rd or other danger and not be able to catch them. Had a freind who just told her son not to go to Rd. used other methoids. They are both died because the kid did not understand how unsafe it is. He would be an adult today. his mom ran to road to catch him. they were hit by a trackor trailer.

There are other ways to teach children not to run in the street, or restrain them when they are too little to understand, without spanking them. Many parents don't hit their children and the kids miraculously survive childhood without being hit by cars. On the other hand, spanking them doesn't guarantee they won't run again, you have to supervise them closely anyways, so what's the point of spanking them???

My dd is just starting to get it, at almost 3. Until now, I preferred her to be safely strapped in her stroller whenever we were close to busy roads. Ds also used to bolt and run as a toddler; now at 7 he pays close attention to safety, can cross roads, bikes alone on our small street, checks his helmet and his seat belt when he's in the car. And we didn't have to spank him even once!

I've read somewhere about a toddler who would run into the street and got a spanking for it. Next time, she still ran, but covering her butt with her hands. The only think she learned from it was that if you do something you're not supposed to, you need to cover your behind.

My dh also told me how he got a spanking for trying to stick nails into an electric outlet when he was 3 or 4. Several years later, he was playing with some friends outside, when their ball got stuck on some electric wires. Dh climbed a fence to get his ball back and suffered an electric shock which threw him to the ground. To this day, his parents don't know that their son almost died that day. He would have gotten a major spanking for it.

[humboldtorganic]

Originally Posted by Peggy O'Mara

I was brought up in an authoritarian home and I didn't know how to say no when I grew up and was conditioned to be compliant. I didn't even know how to make a decision.

This is exactly me.

I used to think that spanking never hurt me and I grew up fine, but now after having a child of my own, after reading study after study about the long term affects of spanking, I realize that I am that way because of the discipline tactics my parents used... spanking included. I dont wish that on anyone, let alone my own beautiful baby.

Also how can a child learn its not okay to hit, when you hit them? I know many others have already stated that, but to me it doesnt get any clearer than that.

[mamazee]

Honestly, we're spending so much time talking about running in the road, but that is a supervision issue, not a discipline issue. It isn't like you have a 2-year-old, spank them, and then you trust them to hang out by the road without holding their hands. Regardless of whether a child is spanked or not, once a child has shown she/he might run into the road, that child ends up being watched better by the road. Spanking is just something to make the parent feel better IMO. It doens't teach anything about cars.

[Peggy O'Mara]

Being spanked doesn't mean you don't love the parents that spanked you. That's the trouble with abuse of any kind. It may make us eventually change or leave a relationship, but the love remains. That's the rub. So, still loving your parents and being close to them even if they spanked you is not evidence of the effectiveness or the wisdom of spanking. It's just confirms the tragedy of abuse. Rather than hating the perpetrator, abuse can make you hate yourself because when someone you love and depend upon overpowers you with violence and abuse, you feel ashamed and unworthy. It takes a lot of willingness for personal exploration to appreciate the affects of spanking.

I agree that we're not here to debate the merits of spanking. There are none. But, I do like that we can have this conversation and hopefully help the OP with some alternatives to spanking. OP, are you interested in that?

[meemee]

OP i hear you. i really get how much under stress you are. i get how hard it is being a single mother and just trying to keep your head above water. let alone deal with a mean x.

i have all those factors in common with you. i have had to keep my bfeeding a secret - rather my dd had to coz her dad wanted her to stop when she didnt want to.

so the thing here is what do you want for your child. do you want him to cooperate? with whom? where?

at around 5 and a half my dd was a real pill. we were under a LOT of stress. i had a LOT of help having people listen to me vent so that i got some relief from the stress i was under. i got my needs met.

so that when it came to my dd i could truly be there for her as a mom. 

that is when i realised belonging to multiple homes, having to learn all the different rules of the different houses dd was in - she needed a place to vent. she needed a place to be herself. she had to be on her best behaviour every where else - and she was. 

but where was she to scream. to hit out. to fight every single step. she needed a place to let her hair hang down and just let it out.

i learnt this from her. one day i told her to behave because i was way too angry and frustrated and i could hit out. she looked me straight in the eye and asked me 'but ma what did i do? why are getting angry with me? i am just being myself. why is it bothering you today when it didnt yesterday? i didnt do anything wrong.' oh man!!! i felt all the anger leave my body. i actually felt every single muscle in my body relax and realise omg this little 5 year old is right.

learnt a huge big lesson.

discovered that all of dd's 'bad' behaviour was a badge of honor for me. that she was soo confident that i loved her, that i truly accepted who she was - that she knew that no matter what she did - i may not like the action, but i truly loved her. and so she would let her hair down. and i let her. i sat with her and took her beating. i took her 'ma i am speaking english to you. why dont you understand me. everyone else does but you.' well child you were so emotional in your account that you missed out key parts. but did i say that. no i just sat and listened.

you know something though. i did hit her. once. in frustration. when she was 4 i think. i didnt mean to hit, i just did it. and regretted it just at that very time. i was mortified. but nothing like how mortified my dd was. she was just amazed. flabbergasted. but worst she felt betrayed. how could her 'only thing' react that way to her. it took out a piece of me but i made a big realisation. 

i had to take care of myself. my dd was just being herself. in cases when i came close to spanking - i was reacting. i wasnt disciplining at all.

yes dd is a spirited child. and spirited children are special imho. they are children who are sensitive and see right through you. 

6 is also when the first signs of puberty begin. at least it did for dd. that made her behave like a PMSing lady. in the middle of her tantrum i stayed quiet. i knew she was out of it. she could not see reason. but afterwards she was mortified at what she did. she told me 'mom i know it was wrong, but i just couldnt help it. i felt like someone else within me was making me do this.' and it was. it was raging hormones. 

well she got out of that phase and omg BOOOM. she became this child i did not know. so mature, so level headed. and also with body odor.

today she is the sweetest child ever. 

one more thing i discovered about me. if dd went against societal norms in my embarrassement i saw red. till i realised heck those societal norms are bullshit. its not realistic to expect that behaviour out of the child. 

also as pp pointed out - it is the panic in your voice that is key - not your action. dd was 18 months old when she ran out into the street. oh boy. did i have a fit. later i remember as i was hysterical dd had the deer in the headlight look. she never NEVER NEVER EVER ran out on the street again. she brought up later what was bad about it to understand, but oh by she never ran out on the street. 

so hang in there mama. TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF. this is not about your son. this is about YOU!!!! you have A LOT on your plate. give yourself permission to take a break in whatever form you'd like. i had no one to relieve me, so while dd was involved in something i'd take a couple of minutes to sit down with a glass of icy water and just savor it. those little mini breaks made me such a better mom. 

sometimes our children being 'bad' is a good thing. it reveals to us what's up with them. they dont do that to be mean to you. they do it because they know no other way to cope with the situation at that moment. 

give yourself a break. and give your son a break too. poor baby. he always has to live upto someones expectations. that's a lot to carry for a little one. 

[Mama Soltera]

Originally Posted by mleawicks 

 i will use time out and spank onlywhen life threat...like running into RD.
 

But I've never seend spanking be effective for even life threatening things like running in the road. I've known many parents who do that and their kids still run in the road. When things are life threatening I have shouted (in an urgent way) for my kids stop, I grab them (to keep them from going), and then I speak very clearly (and strongly), face-to-face, and they really get it. My kids never ran in the road. I just feel like, if it's not necessary, why not use another method? But I agree that when things that are seriously dangerous it is not the time to coo and whisper gently. I think there is a happy medium that is safe and gets the point across but does not harm the child or make them focus on trusting you less and avoiding you more.

[CatsCradle]

Originally Posted by mamazee 

Honestly, we're spending so much time talking about running in the road, but that is a supervision issue, not a discipline issue. It isn't like you have a 2-year-old, spank them, and then you trust them to hang out by the road without holding their hands. Regardless of whether a child is spanked or not, once a child has shown she/he might run into the road, that child ends up being watched better by the road. Spanking is just something to make the parent feel better IMO. It doens't teach anything about cars.

Excellent post.  My DD is almost six, and we still hold hands at the corner and we are still super aware of the street.  Only recently have I been crossing the street, and then allowing DD to cross by herself, after waiting for the signal and looking both ways.  At no time prior to that did I trust the situation to let go of her hand.  It really is a supervision issue.  Being super aware of dangers as a parent is a hard thing (frankly I'm so weary of it but it's gotta be done).  To expect a child under five or four to make those decisions is not something that is teachable, IMO.  Now, you may have a kid who comes to the realization sooner, and that is great, but kids that age are impulsive, and I don't think that safety (in general terms) can be taught through "punishment."  Unless you are extremely lucky with your kid, on average those critical thinking skills are not there.  It doesn't mean that your kid is dumb or disobedient, it just means that they haven't mastered the situation or circumstances yet, and that is okay.  It is up to the adult or older person to make those decisions for them with gentle guidance.  

[jewel1288]

My heart goes out to you. I can only imagine the frustration you're feeling! I don't know if this has already been mentioned, as I don't have time to read all the comments. :-/ So forgive me if this is redundant. 

I've worked as a nanny for more than a decade and now have my own child who is 18months old, so I'm obviously not the most experienced mamma around, but here's what I've observed in my parenting and childcare. All of the children I have nannied who were spanked or had their hands smacked as a form of discipline, also hit and the line was non existent as far as who they hit- sometimes it was me (even though I was never responsible for spanking and wouldn't have even if parents had asked me to), sometimes it was another child, and sometimes it was a sibling. What I observed is that when the child experienced anger or frustration, they would often times hit as a way to "deal" with their anger or frustration. As adults, we know this isn't a good form of learning to communicate, as hitting doesn't produce the result of changed behavior; it does teach fear though and often times a child who hits. One mother I worked for slapped her child's hands when telling the child no at an age younger than 18 months. For the very brief time I cared for her child, when he was upset or unhappy about something, he would hit my child. My child, having not experienced hitting, was obviously brought to tears and had a heart-jerking expression of why would he do that to me?! Of course, at his young age, he didn't have the words to express that he had no interest in sharing his toys, but he will eventually and it's a valuable lesson to learn that hitting does not bring about healthy communication skills. So that's something to think about or maybe focus on in the times when you're wanting to take the easy road to punishment. In the long run, I think having discussions with your son and taking away privileges for unacceptable behavior will serve you both well. 

With my own child, I try to really focus on being in tune with needs and meeting my LO's needs with love and compassion and concern. Sure, I have a 18month old and your son is much older and probably brings more frustration at times because he does have the ability to verbally communicate, but that's where you also have the advantage! :) Anger or misbehavior almost exclusively exists because there is a disconnect in the relationship, whether it's intentional or not, as parents, it's your responsibility to reconnect and determine what emotions are behind the anger and/or misheavior. 

As for your ex and his new wife, it sounds like she wants to be an active step mom, no? It sounds like she has just tried to take on that role. So, since it's bringing you a lot of stress and surely your son as well, as having three parents or even four who don't or are not able to parent together, maybe talking with a family counselor would be helpful if having a civil conversation with your ex and his wife would be a challenge. Some boundaries definitely need to be established and adhered to, which is sounds like you understand but that they don't. Have you ever spoken with your ex's wife? Would that be possible? If so, cutting out the middle man (your ex) might really help, as sometimes things can get lost in translation-so to speak. I believe that having as many people involved in your child's life who love him can be a wonderful thing, but having two or more parenting methods, no matter how much love is behind the effort, ultimately doesn't help your son... so her education aside shouldn't have all the bearing on how they parent your chlid, which may be a really difficult thing for her to understand, especially now that she has her own motherly instincts kicking in with her new baby. Ultimately, what may be really helpful for everyone, but especially you and your son is for there to be some discussion(s) about parenting together. 

Wishing you only the best. It's a tough job being a parent and an even tougher one when you're a single parent. I applaud you for seeking out support...also sometimes a difficult thing to do. Good luck to you!

[mleawicks]

so different people have different ways and opinions. We who spank are not abusive. yes there are those who are. just as there are those who don't spank are too abusive in not teaching child  rules. so we have different people with different parenting styles. and the world goes round and round and round........

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I don't spank mainly because it just doesn't seem right to me. Like others have said - I don't hit adults so that thought of hitting a child - my dependt child who only has me to protect them seems so counter to my job as a parent.

Also, don't think it works. I'm not entirely against "logical consequences" (OP -- these are punishments that relate logically to the behavior you're trying to change). But, I think a parent should use these sparingly AND if a parent needs to resort to them over and over, I think it means they're not working.  So, if you're finding yourself needing to rely heavily on bribes, rewards, charts, time-outs, and certainly spanking, it's worth a consideration about how well these actually work for your child. 

And, OP -- the growth and journey of disciplining without relying on things like spanking is really a wonderful experience as a parent and it can help you in other relationships. It's wonderful to stretch your tool box of relating to people. Good luck on your journey!! 

[CatsCradle]

Originally Posted by mleawicks 

so different people have different ways and opinions. We who spank are not abusive. yes there are those who are. just as there are those who don't spank are too abusive in not teaching child  rules. so we have different people with different parenting styles. and the world goes round and round and round........

I think ultimately we're just going to have fundamentally different views on this.  I don't consider spanking a parenting style and can't condone it as such.  Others have framed the issue more eloquently than I can at the moment, but personally I don't think one can break physical punishment into degrees.  I'll leave it at that.

Edited by CatsCradle - 8/9/12 at 7:36am

[starling&diesel]

Originally Posted by mleawicks 

so different people have different ways and opinions. We who spank are not abusive. yes there are those who are. just as there are those who don't spank are too abusive in not teaching child  rules. so we have different people with different parenting styles. and the world goes round and round and round........

I fundamentally disagree.  I believe that hitting your children is abuse.  And I would argue that sure, the world goes around and around, but there are other places for you to hang out. We do not advocate hitting your children here.  This is supposed to be a safe space for children and families.  Not a place where someone might come away with the idea that hitting is okay.  Coming here to genuinely look for alternatives, great.  Coming here to justify or excuse hitting kids, not cool.