or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Baby › Baby Health › Vaccinations › I'm Not Vaccinating › Dr Took Son from her Arms to Forcibly Vaccinate
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Dr Took Son from her Arms to Forcibly Vaccinate - Page 3

post #41 of 86
Thread Starter 

Because he is not used to standing up for himself at the drs, and he let her bully him around against his better judgement.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by TCMoulton View Post


Why would he take his pants off if he was there for sinus issues.
post #42 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post


Seriously, though, I don't know any doctors that are "enraged " by someone's lack of vaccinations. And I know lots of doctors. It's really easy to just dismiss a patient with whom you can't reach a mutually agreeable treatment plan. A lot easier than assaulting them.

Seems to me that you are assuming that all doctors are pleasant, affable individuals who who would NEVER cross the line from rudeness and arrogance to anger when their patients are not, um, "compliant" with forced injections.

 

Don't you think that's just a little bit naive?

 

Do you really expect us to believe that it's not possible for a doctor to have his/her own emotional issues involving control?

 

There are parents who lose control due to anger issues and harm their children.

 

There are teachers who lose control and do emotional and even physical harm to their students--due to their own anger issues.

 

There are plenty of sadistic nurses; I think we've all heard horror stories from friends and relatives about sadistic nurses. I had one who literally yelled at me for daring to allow my newborn to nurse on demand (every 30 minutes or so) during the first day. 

 

Do you think doctors--particularly one in training, who may be sleep-deprived, or stressed beyond his endurance--are ALL completely incapable of being "enraged" by someone's lack of vaccinations?  


We have all seen doctors who are arrogant and rude.  Seems to me the line between rudeness/arrogance and inappropriate anger towards a patient is awfully blurry.  Do you honestly believe that there are no doctors who ever cross that line?

post #43 of 86

I enjoy reading your posts, Taxi.  Wild Kingdom, TO ME, seems to be a bit of a troll.  irked.gif

 

There is good and and bad in everything; this would be with any and all humans (non-human as well).  I, too, have experienced some lovely and wonderfully caring physicians/nurses when I needed them, but I have also experienced the occasional rude and callous physicians/nurses, also.  The sheer arrogance of some of these individuals was almost unbelievable.  

 

I once read a top physician's statement (can't recall the website at the moment), wherein he stated that medical students are told in medical school that they are "the elite of the elite."  In other words, they literally convince these med students that they are the best of the best and are not to be questioned.  I was amazed when I read that, because it's my own opinion that the arrogance of many in our healthcare system TODAY far exceeds that which it used to be, in bygone years.  

 

Here is a wonderful example of this type arrogance.  Here is a link to a medical journal wherein the 'arrogance' issue among physicians is discussed:  

 

Link:  http://journals.lww.com/academicmedicine/Fulltext/2002/02000/Arrogance_among_Physicians.10.aspx

 

Here is a SNIP:

 

"Arrogance among physicians is, regrettably, common and violates the benevolent spirit of medicine-its very soul -as well the quality of medical care. The need for humility in the physician warrants greater emphasis in medical training, both in the classroom and, more critically, by example. Arrogance persists because of intersecting and mutually enhancing sociologic and psychological pressures."

"Regarding the sociologic elements, in earlier times, the great respect and prestige accorded physicians could foster arrogance in some. Today, physicians as a group are less likely to be idealized, but the health care system has depersonalized the doctor-patient relationship and created a kind of system arrogance in which the patient is seen not as a person but merely as a job to be done cost-effectively. As for psychological aspects, physicians are sometimes drawn to medicine by their unconscious concerns about illness and mortality-they become health experts in the hope of extending their own lives. Such physicians treat death as the enemy, and may practice unwarranted heroic measures. But the most critical variable in the development of arrogance is a physician's knowledge and thereby his or her power over the patient. This can delude some physicians into imagining that they are all-powerful. Seriously ill or injured patients tend to view the physician as an omnipotent parent and savior, and in this way unwittingly tempt physicians to be arrogant."

"The author concludes by reminding his fellow physicians that we should not exaggerate our own importance… we are but an instrument of healing and not its source."

 

GREAT READING.  I highly recommend all of you commenting on this post, to review the above link.  

 

I've interviewed several physicians, medical and nursing students, in past years.  ALL of them explained to me that they are ONLY taught that vaccines have saved the world from disease and that vaccines cannot possibly cause harm to the immune system.  Many of these same physicians and nurses also stated to me that, should they deem to ask questions about the downside to vaccines, they are rather firmly told to 'not go there.'  So - they are CONDITIONED to not ask questions.

 

This same type conditioning exists for all the rest of us, as was mentioned in a prior post.  We are conditioned to TRUST all those of whom wear white coats and stethescopes.  We are to 'obey' their 'orders,' no questions asked, because 'they know best.'

 

I still remember those cigarette ads from the 1960's, wherein physicians would participate in commercials for cigarettes.  "LUCKY is my brand of choice,"  one would say in one of those commercials - or the countless ads in magazines in the 60's, where a physician would be depicted in full white coat with proverbial stethescope around his neck, proudly puffing on a Marlboro cigarette.  Remember those hearings back in the 1970's; seven or was it eight tobacco CEO's testifying before Congressional oversight committees that the 'science' behind tobacco/cigarettes PROVED that it didn't cause cancer?  THEY LIED, as we all know today, and of course, some 30 years down the road, we all now KNOW that cigarettes can cause various forms of cancer and a myriad of other diseases.

 

So - do doctors and nurses always know best?  NO, they don't.  There is much yet to be learned about the human immune system as to how all these vaccines, their excipients/adjuvants, attenuated viruses, etc., impact the developing immune system.  Until the science that is coming forth is truly IN on this issue, I would suggest that all parents commence to doing their homework on vaccines before allowing any physician or nurse, convince you to just 'listen to them, because we know best.'  Sadly, that just isn't always the case.

post #44 of 86

Oh, and again, JMHO, but I do believe that Crunchy Mama IS TELLING THE TRUTH.  Whether or not this ped was going to try to give this child 14 or so, vaccines, does not determine in my mind the credibility of her story.  I've no idea how many vaccines this doc wanted to try to give to this child, so I will presume that this mom is telling the truth.  She reiterates the number 14, more than once, so I'm assuming that number means something to her because this is exactly what this pediatrician stated to her.  Pediatricians are notoriously unaware as to the number of vaccines they actually provide to their patients, in part, perhaps, because it's the nurses or PA's who give the injections.  Pediatricians are also completely unaware of the contraindications to certain vaccines for certain children, because they typically do not read the vaccine inserts. Most pediatricians are completely unaware of vaccine ingredients.  I had one pediatrician in our state health department ASK ME what ingredients are in most vaccines, because she truly didn't know.  Unbelievable...

 

There have been extensive stories by parents who have taken the time to tell their stories as to physician bullies, all over the Internet.  Not only have I experienced some of these type bullies myself, but since I have, I can easily resonate with most of these stories myself, as well.  

 

Pediatricians DO NOT read peer-reviewed journals re: vaccines, for the most part.  They read what the AAP TELLS THEM TO READ.  OR, they receive information on vaccines/drugs based on the information they receive from Big Pharma reps. who frequent their offices.

 

We use allopathic medicine when, and if, we should experience a trauma situation, which would require it.  For preventative measures and overall healthcare needs, we use a highly skilled homeopath (Dr. Randall Neustaedter).  Our son has never had ANY antibiotics (save for what may have been in some of the vaccines he had as an infant); he is delightfully healthy.  We try to eat as organically as possible, get plenty of rest, take our vitamin D3 (and a few supplements by Dr. Randy), and are all healthy.  We have learned much about maintaining a natural lifestyle and refuse to become one of those human repositories for Big Pharma.  

 

But I'm all for pro-choice, informed consent.  If someone chooses to use vaccines for their overall healthcare needs, knock yourself out!  This issue should be about CHOICE.  If vaccines are so wonderfully good for you - completely safe and effective - then for those that use them, you should be protected, right?  But forcing me, our son (who suffered with horrific vaccine reactions), or my husband to use any drug or vaccine which may mean more of a risk to us than to most others, is not something that's going to happen.  We watched our beautiful baby (now 19) suffer horrendously to vaccines (reactions were all documented in his medical files at the time).  We quit vaccinating him at the age of six months and today, at 19 years of age, he's doing beautifully (and is wonderfully healthy).  

 

But it's been a long road to recovery for him, both medically and academically.  I wouldn't wish what we've been through, on anyone else.  

 

We learned to trust our instincts/hearts; we learned to read, read, read anything we could get our hands on re: vaccines.  We learned that so-called alternative media has a lot to offer, rather than the bland, mainstream information we had forced down our throats, when I was pregnant.  

 

We also learned to develop thick skins when it comes to this issue.  I honestly do not believe our son would be with us today, if we had caved to this then pediatricians on this vaccine issue.

post #45 of 86
Quote:
Wild Kingdom, TO ME, seems to be a bit of a troll.  
So, why am I a troll? Because I deign to question a pretty unbelievable story? It's only acceptable if people question the Establishment?

This:
Quote:
Pediatricians DO NOT read peer-reviewed journals re: vaccines, for the most part.  They read what the AAP TELLS THEM TO READ.  OR, they receive information on vaccines/drugs based on the information they receive from Big Pharma reps. who frequent their offices.

Is ridiculous. True, I'm sure there are doctors who don't read. Most do. We have to- its the only way to keep up in a rapidly changing field. For example, I attend a monthly journal club where we review the previous month's top articles for various journals.

As far as only reading what the AAP tells them to- you ascribe a lot of power to the AAP. Most docs don't belong to specialty societies. They have no power over doctors. The are voluntary membership organizations, and in many ways are just political lobby groups.
Edited by WildKingdom - 8/4/12 at 5:10pm
post #46 of 86

Wild Kingdom,

 

I am NOT going to engage in a debate with you.  You have a nice day, now.  

post #47 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayareamom View Post

Wild Kingdom,

I am NOT going to engage in a debate with you.  You have a nice day, now.  

Then don't name-call.
post #48 of 86

Wild,

 

I didn't write to YOU specifically.  I called a spade a shovel.  Why don't you just admit why you're over here?  Everyone else knows...

 

Again, have a pleasant day/evening...

post #49 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

So, why am I a troll? Because I deign to question a pretty unbelievable story? It's only acceptable if people question the Establishment?

 

You did not just "deign" to question a story.  You said it was BS and refused to admit is was even plausible, or that you do not really know.

 

Questioning of anything is fine, but you did not question, you judged as lying something you cannot know unless you were there. 


Edited by kathymuggle - 8/4/12 at 8:16pm
post #50 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayareamom View Post

Wild,

I didn't write to YOU specifically.  I called a spade a shovel.  Why don't you just admit why you're over here?  Everyone else knows...

Again, have a pleasant day/evening...
Everyone knows?

Well, I'll tell you why I'm here, although I doubt it's why you think. I've seen a ton of misinformation here. I've tried to give a different view. And I'll keep doing so, because I've received many Pms thanking me for my information and efforts. There are many mothers here who do not agree with the general anti-vax stance of MDC, but are afraid to admit it, since they fear being verbally attacked the way you did so to me.

Oh, and thanks for your wishes for a pleasant day. It's gonna be awesome!
post #51 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

 

Well, I'll tell you why I'm here, although I doubt it's why you think. I've seen a ton of misinformation here. I've tried to give a different view. And I'll keep doing so, because I've received many Pms thanking me for my information and efforts. There are many mothers here who do not agree with the general anti-vax stance of MDC, but are afraid to admit it, since they fear being verbally attacked the way you did so to me.

 

 

That's very noble of you, doctor, to pop in now and then to clear up all our misinformation with mainstream propaganda information, which we, non vaxers, are quite aware of but thanks anyway. Do I need to remind you this is the I'M NOT VACCINATING forum, so maybe that is why your opinions are not all that well received here? I am sorry that many mothers don't agree with us non-vaxers, but we are used to that, most of society doesn't. However, as far as I understood, MDC takes the stance of informed vaccine choice and is only anti mandatory vaccination, so if there are some here that believe in mandatory vaccination, MDC might not be the place for them.

post #52 of 86
I don't believe I've ever said anything about mandatory vaccination. It's not something I agree with.

If you don't like my posts, it's easy to put me on ignore.
post #53 of 86
The comment was that MDC has an anti-manditory vaccination stand, there was no individual reference.

If that is an example of getting information from a written source, I question your information.
post #54 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildKingdom View Post

I don't believe I've ever said anything about mandatory vaccination. It's not something I agree with.

If you don't like my posts, it's easy to put me on ignore.

 

I never said you agreed with mandatory vaccination. I was just pointing out MDC's vaccination stance. Anyway, I am glad you are open enough to allow us to choose not to vaccinate our children. Not everyone in the medical profession agrees with you unfortunately. Take, for example, this person who calls himself a bioethicist, who believes that US children are suffering [sic] from vaccine exemptions. He still blames the pertussis endemic of the unvaccinated when even the CDC has acknowledged that just isn't the case. 

 

 

 

Quote:
Part of the problem is, too many parents are refusing to get their kids vaccinated against whooping cough and the other horrible diseases that have returned, sickening, disabling and killing children.

 

However, the CDC, states quite clearly, most of Washington's children are vaccinated, and health officials said vaccine refusal doesn't appear to be playing a key role in the growing pertussis burden. The problem, is the pertussis vaccine is a flop.

 

As for me putting you on ignore, I would never do that, I find your posts quite amusing.

 

 

 

 

post #55 of 86
Bayareamom, edit your posts attacking Wild Kingdom. Calling someone a troll is against the UA, and your further posts directed toward her are off-topic and out of line.

Thanks to the member who hit the report button instead of battling it out here!

All: remember to keep the thread on topic and NOT about individuals. Calling folks naive is not ok. This thread is not about posters' individual beliefs, from what I can tell from the OP. Thanks for y'all's help getting it back on track.
post #56 of 86

While her story sounds a little overexaggerated (which can happen when you're upset), I have seen where medical personell have made pretty absurd judgement calls in order to do what THEY think is best for a person. I have my son on delayed vax, a schedule I made and cleared with his doctor (who is very pro-vax, but understands my family's medical issues and reactions to vaccines). He, however, does not administer vaccines to babys, and I was forced to go to the county clinic for them (I did not trust the local pediatrician for a number of reasons). To sum up what my son has gone through with them, I had two nurses who had seen him multiple times before say these three things to me when I last went in: "He still needs his six month shots and will be recieving them today" (I have heard this three times from them, and he was caught up on them as well as a few one-year is what I had been told the last time he went in), "Our files show he has only had a few vaccines and needs to be caught up" (while they are reading the very full vaccine card THEY had signed), and the most exhillirating one was "Oh! He seems to have received an extra ActHib somewhere!" Well, I lost it on them, swallowed my pride, and went to the pediatrician. Who, in the end, reviewed the vaccination record and cancelled the appointement I had made because he was in fact up to date, saying the vaccines the county wanted to give him were far to early and could make him very sick. Whenever we went in, I was very clear on the ones I wanted him to have. I counted the amount of syringes they were prepping, everything. However, they eventually stopped having me sign in to the clinic for some reason, and stopped giving me the required papers at the end of the visit (info on the vaccines administered). I am only happy at this point that my son didn't permenently suffer for my lapse in vigilince, or that nothing surfaces that could permanently affect him.   

post #57 of 86

I've had a pediatric nurse INSIST that all their vaccines were thimerosal-free. This was in 2004, early spring.  My daughter was due to receive DTaP, HiB, and polio.  I watched in horror as the nurse draw up a vaccine from a multi-use vial.  I asked her about thimerosal, and she said, proudly, "ALL our vaccines our thimerosal-free." 

She didn't believe me when I told her that multi-use vials are thimerosal-preserved.  She tried to convince me that every vaccine in the country was now thimerosal-free!!  We argued back and forth for a while, and then I finally said, "Look, either get the pediatrician, or go get the package insert and I'll show you where it lists thimerosal as an ingredient."  She stomped out of the room, and stomped back in with the package insert, which she tossed on the examination table.

 

I showed her where thimerosal was listed, and that it was not a trace amount.  I told her that we would not be doing any vaccines that day until we spoke with the pediatrician, and she stomped back out.

 

At that point, we had already seen the pediatrician for the check-up.  We waited for half an hour.  I finally poked my head out the door, and asked when the pediatrician was going to come back and speak with us again about the vaccines.  She said, "no," and walked away. No explanation, no "bye-bye, have a nice day!"  Just "no."

 

So we left.  When we saw him again a few months later, he told us that she had not said a word to him about all this, and that she had marked in the chart that she had given all the vaccines to my daughter that day.

 

banghead.gif

 

So in that instance, the pediatrician was fine; it was the nurse who was both ignorant and arrogant (not to mention dishonest).

post #58 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by MommyRaven View Post

I have my son on delayed vax, a schedule I made and cleared with his doctor (who is very pro-vax, but understands my family's medical issues and reactions to vaccines). He, however, does not administer vaccines to babys, and I was forced to go to the county clinic for them (I did not trust the local pediatrician for a number of reasons). To sum up what my son has gone through with them, I had two nurses who had seen him multiple times before say these three things to me when I last went in: "He still needs his six month shots and will be recieving them today" (I have heard this three times from them, and he was caught up on them as well as a few one-year is what I had been told the last time he went in),

OT:  I have heard a couple of stories lately where sel/delayed are being given a hard time.  You are the third story I have heard in the past few weeks  where someone who is sel/delyed reports that the health care provider says "he needs __ number of shots and will be receiving them today."  It sounds like a catch line  - and note how it is phrased as a statement instead of a question.

 

 I do know that when I say we do not vax, doctors seem mildly annoyed.  They might bring it up once or twice afterwards, but most seem to understand that "no means no" and they give up.  My GP has not tried since the babies were infants.  

 

Sel/delayed seems worse - perhaps because you seem willing to give some vaccines they think they can talk you into  all vaccines?  I just do not know.  I have heard education is tricky, too (although I hope I am wrong!) that exemptions are sometimes for all vaccines or none ?  (anyone with more info?).  

 

Hang in there and do what you think is best for your kids.


Edited by kathymuggle - 8/5/12 at 4:43pm
post #59 of 86

good for you. Though i did not read the whole thread why argue. Have a great day.

post #60 of 86

Here is a short radio interview with Alisha Ramsey conducted yesterday (Aug 5) on the event. She has reported the doctor. She also said, that other people have privately contacted her with similar stories with the same doctor. 

 

The interview starts around the 1:16 mark, but the whole radio show is worth listening to. The first part is with Suzanne Humphries on polio. She also talks about the reaction she got from other doctors as an allopathic MD questioning vaccines in her clinical practice. There is also an interview with Karen Ii, a mother of a vaccine injured child who was recovered largely through homeopathy.

 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: I'm Not Vaccinating
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Baby › Baby Health › Vaccinations › I'm Not Vaccinating › Dr Took Son from her Arms to Forcibly Vaccinate