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Giftedness, ADHD or both? - Page 3

post #41 of 76

I've got ADHD, and am what is considered gifted (99th percentile in IQ tests). It's actually not that uncommon to find folks who are 'twice exceptional,' but it's extra challenging. I heard a lot of "but you're so smart, why can't you do X?" where X equaled timed flashcard tests, term papers, homework, biology labs, and all sorts of other things.

 

I could not have made it through school without drugs. I cannot function in a classroom environment unmedicated. Ritalin did some fairly awful things to my body and my mental health, I have been off it for 20 years now (and yes, my family tried a number of different dietary approaches, as well as several non-drug therapies). I manage pretty well most of the time, though there are jobs I am just utterly unsuited for, and I experience challenges in my interpersonal relationships that are directly caused by the ADHD.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twice_exceptional

post #42 of 76

Just chiming in that we recently had DS aged 7 evaluated and he is ADHD and gifted (98th percentile) so yes, it's possible to be both. While there is some overlap in the symptoms, his trouble starting tasks, constant movement, and lack of self-regulation or executive functions in pretty much all areas and environments kind of screams ADHD. Fortunately his IQ has allowed him to keep up academically, and the social skills group we've been doing privately no doubt has contributed to his having some friends (though he struggles mightily at times). I kind of feel the 2e is a double whammy--so he has all the difficulties of ADHD in dealing with the world, coupled by the boredom and detachment that the school environment can cultivate in a gifted mind. Not sure where we will go from here.

post #43 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geofizz View Post

HOWEVER, processing speed and working memory significantly below verbal and perceptual skills (assuming WISC/WISPII here) are generally taken to be an indicator of ADHD.  However, many gifted kids are verbally gifted and gifted in perceptual/spatial skills without the Ferrari engine (high WM/PSI) driving all of it.  So it can lead to some confusion in the diagnosis if the diagnostician isn't experienced with gifted kids. This becomes a bigger problem with the more gifted the child is. You can calculate the general abilities index (GAI) from the WISC subtests and compare it to the FSIQ to get a sense of how big of an issue it is. In my DD's case, the difference was "just" 15 points, and this was considered a factor of how gifted she is, not that the WM/PSI were deficient.

 

 Just wanted to comment that the local equivalent alphabet soup for the WISC/WPPSI) are HAWIK/HAWIVA. Did they give you  full report with subtests? Ask for it, if they didn't!

post #44 of 76
Thread Starter 

Sorry, english is not my mothertongue, I don't really understand your comment redface.gif

 

Do you mean that HAWIK/HAWIVA is what they use here instead of WISC/WPPSI?

post #45 of 76

i've PM'd you! :)

post #46 of 76
Thread Starter 

Update - I just had a discussion with a special psychologist for gifted kids, and he told me that we cannot count the IQ test, because of DD visual problems. she has no 3 D vision and this visual integration problem. He said, that there are so many pictures and symbols in this test, that it's basically worthless for someone with visual problems.

 

I'll have a longer discussion when I'll have my proper appointment with him, and we have another appointment with a child's psychologist in a couple of weeks, one who I respect and regard very highly. 

I am a bit afraid that I go overboard here, don't wanna be a mom who is pushing the kids until someone calls them gifted. I suffered tremendously as a gifted child who was diagnosed but still not helped in any way, and it made my life sooo hard, and it threw me in a depression that nearly killed me. I don't want that to happen to DD.

She is in her first week of school and is already complaining that she is bored and does not want to sit that long! What can I do?!

 

@Questia: I so know what you mean! How is it going with your son now?

post #47 of 76

I should try to get to the bottom of the vision issues before you pursue the ADHD angle any further. Vision issues can mimic ADHD. There is a whole chapter on this in  "The mislabeled Child" by the Eides (available on amazon).

 

And ignore those posters who insist that your child being "gifted" must mean she never has any educational problems, or that gifted is a useless label anyway. I always find this kind of comment a bit rich from people turning up in a forum that is called "Parenting the Gifted Child" and that explicitly states in the UA that debating the concept of giftedness is not allowed.

post #48 of 76
Quote:

Originally Posted by Triniity View Post

 

She is in her first week of school and is already complaining that she is bored and does not want to sit that long! What can I do?!

 

 If it is possible please get her in a home school situation; your home or a shared home. Kids are not designed to sit for hours and hours; this is much of the problem with school.

 

We home schooled our kids and most days they were finished with their school tasks by noon. If they wanted an hour to run and play they were done at one. Their choice.

 

Government schools are often tedious at best. State propaganda seems to be much of what kids are supposed to "learn". No wonder the kids are bored out of their skulls.

post #49 of 76
Thread Starter 

Unfortunately we live in germany and here it's illegal to homeschool. Plus, since there are next to none homeschool families, there is not much in terms of homeschool curriculums. And - I don't feel that I am a good teacher at all. I am just like my Dad was with me, I get really impatient and tense if they don't get what I try to teach that instant. I mean I know that it's not there fault, and if it's anybodys fault than mine, but I am not very good at it.

 

Our OT already offered to work with the teachers to get a little extra program for DD including more possibilities to get physically active plus stuff to do if schoollife gets boring.

 

There is a outsourced program for gifted kids as well, the "exploration day", which is a day out of school once a week. I'll see if DD is a candidate for that.

 

@tigerle: Thank you for your encouragement! I am trying to understand the visual problems, but it's so difficult to imagine someone not really seeing, I just can't do that very well. Especially since I don't really recognize it in our day-to-day life.

 

@catnip: What did Ritalin do to your body?

post #50 of 76
Quote:

Originally Posted by Triniity View Post

 

@tigerle: Thank you for your encouragement! I am trying to understand the visual problems, but it's so difficult to imagine someone not really seeing, I just can't do that very well. Especially since I don't really recognize it in our day-to-day life.

 

“Autistic children try to make sense of the world around them by lining up toys, sorting by color. They have to "see" objects by adding boxes together, thus "thinking in pictures. Their avoidance of eye contact is an attempt to get light to land off center in the retina where they have some rod function. Suddenly mother’s touch feels like sand-paper on their skin. Common sounds become like nails scraped on a blackboard. We think they cannot abstract, but we are sinking these children into an abstract painting at 18 months of age and they are left trying to figure out if the language they are hearing is connected to what they are looking at.”  Mary Megson, MD.

post #51 of 76

Louisw, I really don't understand what accusing government schools of instilling state propaganda and quotes about autistic children have to do with triniity's child, which was diagnosed with vision problems and possible ADHD, not autism, and which is complaining about boredom, not propaganda.

post #52 of 76
Quote:
Louisw, I really don't understand what accusing government schools of instilling state propaganda and quotes about autistic children have to do with triniity's child, which was diagnosed with vision problems and possible ADHD, not autism, and which is complaining about boredom, not propaganda.

 

 

I feel the autism quote was appropriate given -  I am trying to understand the visual problems, but it's so difficult to imagine someone not really seeing,

 

Louisw was stating (as I am interrupting it) as how others SEE- I find the quote touching and fitting

 

 

 

Quote:
and which is complaining about boredom, not propaganda.

many who HS do view the state run education as propaganda and HS because of it- I completely get it-mindless nonsense is often propaganda and indoctrination follows-getting everyone on the same page

most children have no idea what propaganda is or if they are being fed it-sadly most adults don't either

post #53 of 76
Thread Starter 

Hi all,

I appreciate your input, but could we stop the propaganda discussion? Homeschool is not possible around here anyway. ;)

post #54 of 76

my comment was just my view- you can't stop others from thinking

 

this thread is so negative it comes off as really trying to set an agenda and picking who should and what should be posted instead of a welcoming and open discussion-very disappointing 

post #55 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerle View Post

Louisw, I really don't understand what accusing government schools of instilling state propaganda and quotes about autistic children have to do with triniity's child, which was diagnosed with vision problems and possible ADHD, not autism, and which is complaining about boredom, not propaganda.

 

I was only relaying what I found profound about vision problems and POSSIBLE other problems.

 

ADHD and autism often are symptoms of vaccine induced disease. "Vaccinate" a little you may get ADHD, "vaccinate" some more you may get autism.

 

ADHD can also be many other things. Mostly it is a scam designed to put toxic useless drugs into kids; just as "vaccination" is a deadly scam designed to put toxic useless drugs into kids..

 

The CHIEF function of government schools is IMO the instillation of state propaganda. Even small children can smell propaganda and MANY find it boring.

post #56 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louisw View Post

 

I was only relaying what I found profound about vision problems and POSSIBLE other problems.

 

One of the defining characteristics of autism is "they cannot look you directly in the eyes"

 

This has been interpreted as an "emotional" issue. But what if it is a simple VISION issue that has NOTHING to do with emotions? The kids with autism IMO usually have NO emotional problems. They are trapped in a body that has been drugged ("vaccinated") into such a poor functional state they must cope with actions that are interpreted as emotional.

 

The good thing is we have seen the kid is still there under the autism. IMO there are usually no emotional problems. Get rid of the mercury and aluminum and other toxins and your kid can return vision, emotions and ALL.

post #57 of 76
Most of the drugs for ADHD are powerful stimulants. They raise your heart rate and your blood pressure. They cause a constant low level nausea, and suppress the appetite to non-existence. They exacerbate anxiety, insomnia, and OCD, all of which are common in people with ADHD.
post #58 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerle View Post

I should try to get to the bottom of the vision issues before you pursue the ADHD angle any further. Vision issues can mimic ADHD. 

 

yeahthat.gif  The most common vision issue that presents like ADHD is called "convergence insufficiency".  You will know they checked for it if they used that machine where they keep switching the lenses and ask you if things look better or worse.  It is thankfully able to be worked with and usually corrected.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by catnip View Post

Most of the drugs for ADHD are powerful stimulants. They raise your heart rate and your blood pressure. They cause a constant low level nausea, and suppress the appetite to non-existence. They exacerbate anxiety, insomnia, and OCD, all of which are common in people with ADHD.

 

yeahthat.gif  And to be honest, there are so many natural ways to address the issue before having to resort to drugs that many parents resort to the drugs if only to get through the list of all the natural alternatives.  Here is a list of 5 things to rule out before an ADHD diagnosis.

 

But in this case, it really does sound like boredom.   Hugs, mama.

post #59 of 76

I felt this was a very helpful and informative thread until it started to verge off on OT topics such as the alleged link between autism and vaccinations or state propaganda in government schools and violations of the forum rules such as calling the term gifted overused and useless or stating that a "globally" or "truly" gifted child couldn't have problems in school anyway.

No one is trying to stop anyone from thinking, but it would be simple courtesy to stick to the OP's problem, which is teasing apart whether her DD's problems stem from ADHD, lack of challenge due to a poor educational fit, visual processing problems, other sensory processing problems or some or all of the above. And now I'll shut up because I am not a moderator and I don't want to derail this thread any further either, and I really don't want to pick a fight or be negative or set an agenda in somebody else's thread.

Can we all get along and just go back to the questions the OP has been asking please? And to the fact that it has been established that her daughter has a serious visual processing issue, that has as yet (as I understand) been undiagnosed and untreated and that she has been told that giftedness cannot be established until it has - which also means, as several posters have pointed out now, that ADHD cannot be established until it has, because it is a diagnosis of exclusion. At this point, I'd truly throw all my energy into getting to the bottom of the vision issues because the child has already started first grade and the OP is already suspecting that it might stop her DD from making progress in reading and writing.

 

OP, I went over the vision chapter in "The Mislabeled Child" and it looks like it might be very helpful to you, because it focuses mostly on the kind of vision issues which aren't easibly detectable or "visible" to parents or even eye doctors, and has examples and exercises for parents to help them understand how their child might be seeing the world - and, of course exercises for the child. I'd get it ASAP  - it also has a very informative chpater about giftedness and what it might masquerade as, and what ADHD really is and isn't (and is VERY sceptical about medication - which is something I think we can ALL agree on: don't let them push you into medicating your DD, the testers advocating this on the flimsy grounds they have sound really irresponsible!)

 

Edited to add that when we were at a point when we felt unable to tell whether DS's behavioral problems were due to giftedness, ADHD, sensory processing disorder or autism we sort of took a multicausal approach: we had testing done to rule out ADHD and autism, did a round of OT, instituted a sensory diet, reduced stimulation during the workweek, talked to the preschool teachers about challenge, structure and social stressors, checked out the food and sleep angle, really worked hard to make sure he had regular protein-rich meals to ward off reactive  hypoglycemia, added supplements (vitamin D, fish oil, magnesium, zinc) to be calmer during the day and fall asleep within less than two hours of tossing and turning - I can't say which had the most input in making things better (and they got a lot better very soon) but I can tell you the thing which was least helpful: the negative resp. inconclusive testing for autism (ADHD was ruled out by the psychiatrist on the spot "if this is anything it's autism!" duh. It wasn't.


Edited by Tigerle - 8/25/12 at 2:16pm
post #60 of 76
Thread Starter 

Thank you all for your input! I never thought about the vision problems as something that has such an input on the behaviour. I just accepted it as something that was there.

 

She is farsighted, severly, with around 7 dpt (I don't know if you have the same measurement in the us) and is squinting with one eye, which caused the loss of 3-d-vision.(even though we detected the problems when she was two and she got glasses immediatly)

the test result came rather unexpected.

 

I will get another appointment and will write an email to her eye doctor as well. We'll see where this goes.

 

I had a talk with her teacher the other day, and she is quite happy with her. The teacher is really nice and bubbly, and she likes her alot ! She says there are no problems whatsoever, she is a bit impulsive, but they are working on it, and it got already a lot better.

 

@tigerle: Thank you for the suggestions - and do you know what Raum-Lage is in english? ;) I will have a deep look into the book

 

My DH says I am getting obsessed by DDs problems and I should just wait and see. What do you guys think? I don't feel comfortable with wait and see. and want to help her!

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