Birth is NOT normal - Page 6

[Adaline'sMama]

ive never met a woman who was able to walk around during an epidural. Have met plenty that couldnt feel their legs, though :)

[philomom]

Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama 

ive never met a woman who was able to walk around during an epidural. Have met plenty that couldnt feel their legs, though

Yep, I ran a new mother's group for many years and we all talked about our births. The epi often gives terrible post partum headaches and backaches. Not okay for the new mom when she's dealing with so much!

[Poogles0213]

Originally Posted by philomom 

Yep, I ran a new mother's group for many years and we all talked about our births. The epi often gives terrible post partum headaches and backaches. Not okay for the new mom when she's dealing with so much!

The incidence of post dural puncture headaches is ~1%, which I wouldn't describe as "often", but yes it is a side effect to be aware of, especially since they can be quite severe and debilitating until they resolve. For many women, the quite small chance that they will get a PDPH afterwards is very much worth the almost guaranteed pain relief given during labor. For others, it is not. And that's ok

[philomom]

Originally Posted by Poogles0213 

The incidence of post dural puncture headaches is ~1%, which I wouldn't describe as "often", but yes it is a side effect to be aware of, especially since they can be quite severe and debilitating until they resolve. For many women, the quite small chance that they will get a PDPH afterwards is very much worth the almost guaranteed pain relief given during labor. For others, it is not. And that's ok

I don't trust that figure. I ran that group 7 years, helped about 500 moms and had way more than a handful tell me about the debilitating headaches they endured after birth.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by Poogles0213 

The incidence of post dural puncture headaches is ~1%, which I wouldn't describe as "often", but yes it is a side effect to be aware of, especially since they can be quite severe and debilitating until they resolve. For many women, the quite small chance that they will get a PDPH afterwards is very much worth the almost guaranteed pain relief given during labor. For others, it is not. And that's ok

Yes - that's okay. If they know. I clearly remember my sister smiling her way through labour and telling me how much she loved the epidural. I have equally clear memories of her hobbling around, tears running down her cheeks, for most of the next three days, due to a debilitating backache.

She had two more pregnancies (three kids) after that, and refused the epidural. She told me she'd have never consented if she'd known it could cause that kind of pain. I don't really care if a woman decides the risk of the headache/backache is worth the pain relief - that's her business. But, a woman who doesn't know the epidural could give her a headache/backache isn't making that decision. She's having it made for her.

It's also not guaranteed pain relief. I've talked to quite a few women who have experienced either complete failure of the epidural (rare) or "windows" of pain. Several of the women who experienced windows said it was worse than the pre-epidural pain, because of the asymmetrical nature of the pains.

[Poogles0213]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride 

Yes - that's okay. If they know. I clearly remember my sister smiling her way through labour and telling me how much she loved the epidural. I have equally clear memories of her hobbling around, tears running down her cheeks, for most of the next three days, due to a debilitating backache.

She had two more pregnancies (three kids) after that, and refused the epidural. She told me she'd have never consented if she'd known it could cause that kind of pain. I don't really care if a woman decides the risk of the headache/backache is worth the pain relief - that's her business. But, a woman who doesn't know the epidural could give her a headache/backache isn't making that decision. She's having it made for her.

I'm sorry to hear your sister fell into that 1%. I definitely agree she should have known about the risks, whether by looking them up herself beforehand or because her HCP informed her (which they most definitely should have). My guess is that it was in the written informed consent she signed in order to get the epidural. Since practically no one ever actually reads those things before signing them, she could have easily signed a form saying she knew and understood those risks and consented, without ever actually knowing the risks. I personally think every consent form should be gone over verbally, but I don't know how feasible that is.

It's also not guaranteed pain relief. I've talked to quite a few women who have experienced either complete failure of the epidural (rare) or "windows" of pain. Several of the women who experienced windows said it was worse than the pre-epidural pain, because of the asymmetrical nature of the pains.

Right, I understand that. Which is exactly why I said "almost guaranteed"

[Poogles0213]

Originally Posted by philomom 

I don't trust that figure. I ran that group 7 years, helped about 500 moms and had way more than a handful tell me about the debilitating headaches they endured after birth.

Well, you are certainly free to look up the studies yourself - the exact rate or percentage varies between studies, but they mostly fall around 1%. Also, please realize that anecdotes are not data; your experiences running your group cannot tell us anything very useful about the actual rate of PDPH in the population, especially since we have scientific data to rely on. 

[Alenushka]

I think normal is meaningless word actually. It was normal for 20% of mothers to die in 18th century. So, we now longer want this normal.

In my first labor I went without epidural until last 4 hours and I will always regret it. I was tired and traumatized by pain and non of those things that were promised to work "relaxation methods, mediation, changing positions, walking and having my acupressure skilled dola with me worked. Plus I felt like a failure for not doing it naturally. I spend agonizing 2 weeks blaming myself.f

Second time around I said "Start the epidural and crank up the pitocin". I was in control and felt happy and pain free. My recovery was faster emotionally speaking. I felt very healed and it was easier to take care of my second baby. The breastfeeding went easier too because I was not so tired and overwrought with emotions.

My SIL had all natural labor in hospital. She did all the hypnobirthing classes with her MW. She drunk all the RLT . Etc etc etc. The hospital had tub, balls, supportive staff who let her labor in peace.

She felt that it was the worst pain of her life and and she had hard time processing how did it happen to her because every class led by her MW kept telling her that fear creates pain and my SIL was not in fear and very prepared.

My other friend just had a baby.  She was terrified of labor and actually dreamed of c-section.  She has an epidural form the starts because she had to me induced for medical reason. She LOVED her labor. She said it was like being in a spa and she feel really well cared for by nursling's. She had practically zero pain.

She is home, happy and very bonding to her kid who she is nursing on demand.

I do not know what normal is. I think pain and death  during labor is normal but I am not surprised that many women do not want that normal.

I do not think pain creates better bonding either. I loved both of my kids to no end and as the time passes by, I really do not care whatever I had a birthing experience or not, all I care about is that they are alive and not brain damaged thank to the expertise of people around me at that time.  To me, healthy child and healthy mom is the physical and spiritual and normal outcome of labor and delivery. If someone wants the pain as part of their spiritual journey, they can have it.

[erigeron]

I just think that all women should be informed about the risks and benefits of their various choices in labor. There are risks to not using pain relief... like, duh, being in pain for longer, being in so much pain for so long that you're too exhausted to push, etc. There are risks to using pain relief as well. There are risks to a C-section as well as to a vaginal birth. If we were all fully informed and supported by our care providers, we could make decisions based on our personal views and our own levels of comfort with various risks, and we wouldn't all necessarily make the same decisions and that's okay. It's the lack of information that really bugs me. If a mom has all the information about her options and picks the epidural or C-section, that's a valid decision. 

Oh, and I don't see what pain has to do with bonding either. I just have the one kid, and had a natural birth, but I'm pretty sure I'd still love her if the birth had gone differently. 

[CI Mama]

Erigeron, I agree with everything you've said...we should all have access to good information and should be supported by our HCPs and should be able to make informed choices.

I also know that I adamantly did NOT want pitocin, an epidural, or a c-section. I felt I understood the risks very well and was very opposed to using those interventions. There came a point in my labor, however, where my choices ran out. My labor did not follow a normal pattern. Things that are "supposed" to help get things moving did not. Resting and replenishing were out of the question. I chose interventions reluctantly, unwillingly, with my back against the wall. I can't blame anyone for the path that labor took. I had an excellent doula, a hospital team that was very supportive of me doing things naturally, and I had a lot of tools that I drew on to help things go the way I wanted them to go. I just had to accept that at some point, my wishes, efforts, and plans didn't matter. My labor wasn't fully in my control, and I had to shift gears mentally in order to get through. It was definitely traumatic, and it has taken me years to process and heal from that experience.

So, yes, let's help women be informed and supported in making the best choices. AND let's be compassionate towards ourselves and others, because this thing called "birth" (and for that matter, this thing called "life") is not fully under our control.

[mindfulmama3]

This has been such an interesting and meaningful thread. It has been an honor to read all of your stories, feelings, passions, and opinions.

I want to start by saying that ALL BIRTH IS NATURAL. Unmedicated births can be more gentle, but CS births are still natural. Women will still transform into mothers on the operating table, they still have to recover, they still have to go through the postpartum period, they still have to navigate motherhood. To shun a women who has had a CS birth, is to shun a massive transformation in any women's life. Women who adopt a baby are no less of a women because they did not birth their own child.

I have been a birth doula for 10 years, and have 3 children of my own. I am also a Craniosacral therapist, I specialize in seeing babies, new mothers, and children. I have my own opinions about birth, and parenting. Watching mothers go through the birth process in hospitals, birth centers and at their homes, has been one of the most amazing jobs i have ever had. Not one birth I have attended, including my own 3, have been the same. No two women will EVER have the same perspective about their bodies, their abilities, or similar life stories (even if they are twins).

I will disclose that I had one hospital birth, one birth center birth, and one home birth. All births were unmedicated, special, difficult, and memorable in their own ways.

I am slightly saddened to see that so many people believe that there are no physical or emotional consequences to the baby after a CS birth, beyond those in statistics. I see babies every week who are recovering from their birth. (I say recovering, because their little bodies go through SOOO much in birth, no matter how they were born)

I am acutely aware that CS births are sometimes necessary, I have seen several mothers try every possible way to vaginally birth their babes, still to finally have a CS birth. I came into the world via CS birth, I fully understand. Let me just say that babies who are born via CS birth come a different set of birth related issues. Just because your baby is "healthy" by medical standards, does not mean that your baby is happy, has a healthy bond, is comfortable and pain free, or free of other physiological issues (many develop later in toddler or childhood)  I am not implying that babies who are born via CS birth are worse off than babies who were born vaginally, I just mean that sometimes babies can have higher rates of issues, not always, but sometimes.

I believe it was the father in this thread that said that how a person comes into the world does not affect the rest of their lives. I wholeheartedly disagree. This used to be a belief, that babies did not remember anything that happens in birth, we now know that is not true. http://birthpsychology.com/free-article/infantile-amnesia-dead. In my professional work, and as a very mindful mother, I personally know that our bodies remember everything that has ever happened to us or in front of us, everything we have felt, learned or experienced. I know that seems impossible, but I assure you, our human bodies are AMAZING! We store this information to be able to navigate our world through all of our lives. To ignore the idea that a newborn does not take part in this experience, and has no memory of the experience, is a sign of lack of education in this area.

I encourage EVERY mother to read all of the available information, hire a doula, and make informed decisions. Stats are useless to be basing your choices by, in any direction. Birth is experiential, not statistical. You need to feel safe, supported, and ready to take part in this massive transformation into motherhood.

There is a difference in birth between pain and suffering. I have seen these two words being used often as the same. Pain is a response of the body, it increases in times of psychological need, and more often in times of fear. Suffering is when pain becomes unbearable, and the person is going to be permanently damaged by trauma (physical or psychologically). It is painful to stub your toe, but chances are you are not suffering. Many women have pain, even excruciating, during labor. How you view your pain is how you determine if you are suffering. In my own opinion, any women who is suffering needs to change her circumstances, if that includes pain relief, so be it. That is why it was invented, to relieve suffering, not to relieve pain.

All of this talk about choosing an medically unnecessary CS birth makes my stomach churn. Most US hospitals and OBGYN's will not provide completely elective CS births. They know that the risks outweigh the benefits. They are all coming to their professional senses and learning that putting a women into surgery is far more dangerous than letting her birth without. (I ONLY speak of low risk, healthy mothers, there are many circumstances to which vaginal birth, at this time,is not safer for high risk mothers).

BTW, the US is not the safest or healthiest place to be a pregnant or give birth. I wouldn't be pouting my life and my baby's life into the hands of much of our medical establishment if possible.

Though the U.S. spends more per birth than any other nation, maternal mortality is higher here than in 40 other industrialized countries, including Croatia, Hungary and Macedonia, and is double that of Canada and much of Western Europe.

 http://articles.latimes.com/2010/may/22/science/la-sci-maternal-deaths-20100523

I completely agree with the OP, it is hard sometimes to see my friends disregard their personal power in the face of fear. It is not right or wrong, but it is what it is. I hope her friend is recovering beautifully with her sweet baby. 

Thank for your listening ears (well, eyes), and open minds.

Hoping all mothers can find peace within their birth and mothering choices.

[Alenushka]

One can argue until the cow comes home but  for me reality is simple. I would rather have a live baby  with whatever real or imagined post c-cestion issues than a dead one.

[babycatcher12]

Originally Posted by Alenushka 

One can argue until the cow comes home but  for me reality is simple. I would rather have a live baby  with whatever real or imagined post c-cestion issues than a dead one.

It's important to remember though, that even with a c-section, you're never guaranteed a live baby. Ever. 

[Alenushka]

Of course not, but in cases of many types of issues, the chances are higher.