Let's face it - the whooping cough vaccine is a flop - Page 2

[Mirzam]

Acellular pertussis vaccination enhances B. parapertussis colonization 

Quote:

Despite widespread vaccination, whooping cough incidence is on the rise worldwide, making it the only vaccine-preventable disease associated with increasing deaths in the United States. Although this disease is most often attributed to Bordetella pertussis infection, it is also caused by the closely related pathogen, B. parapertussis. However, B. pertussis has remained the center of attention, whereas B. parapertussishas been greatly overlooked in the development of whooping cough vaccines.

[MamaMunchkin]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

Acellular pertussis vaccination enhances B. parapertussis colonization 

One vax begets another. 

It reminds me when one takes a medication, and sometimes has to take a few others to deal with the side effects of the first one - granted there's usually a need for the first one. 

For a given vax, sometimes the issue is not only of safety but also of its necessity.  

As an aside, for Hib, aren't there 6 distinct types and the vax is only for type b? I wonder how the different types interact, if at all - could something similar happen, or not?  Also, Gardasil - it targets only some types of HPV, doesn't it?

[Minerva23]

So we all know what is going to happen should big pharma produce a vaccine containing both B. pertussis and B. parapertussis. Instead of these two another maybe more serious pathogen will colonize the vaccated space. Nature is bound to do so. So with all these vaccines we are just going to make matters worth and not any better. But humans just have to be so stubborn. Observe and learn and do not try to fit it in with your own theory. (see Pasteur, Koch etc.)
 

[emmy526]

Originally Posted by MamaMunchkin 

One vax begets another. 

It reminds me when one takes a medication, and sometimes has to take a few others to deal with the side effects of the first one - granted there's usually a need for the first one. 

For a given vax, sometimes the issue is not only of safety but also of its necessity.  

As an aside, for Hib, aren't there 6 distinct types and the vax is only for type b? I wonder how the different types interact, if at all - could something similar happen, or not?  Also, Gardasil - it targets only some types of HPV, doesn't it?

yes gardasil only covers 4 strains

[Mirzam]

Whooping cough and chameleons

I can tell you now and so can whole generations who had whooping cough naturally..., that natural immunity to whooping cough lasts a WHOLE lot longer than immunity from EITHER the whole cell or acellular vaccine does. There are many medical articles which confirm that.  I can also tell you now, that the majority of carriers are VACCINATED people whose immunity to whooping cough is dysfunctional, because of “original antigenic sin” – a situation where the doctor-induced immunity doesn’t prevent either carriage or reinfection. 

 

[canadianhippie]

This is what I've been thinking! 

I have a newborn on the way and a 3 yr old, and thought oh gosh, theres pertussis outbreaks all over Canada right now....I know how i feel about vaccines, but should I? 

Then I saw the link on the mothering page for the pertussis video (the link didnt work) however i was googling a bit, and thought the same thing

Well, if the vaccine works, why is there an outbreak? Because of all us "crazy jenny mccarthy reading nuts" dont vaccinate? I know we got some numbers behind us, but theres not that many of us 

I notice when we watch American channels (like cbs, etc) there are SO many vaccine and med advertisements, it is not like that on regular canadian tv at all. I saw one for the chicken pox today, with this old guy saying how painful shingles can be, its like an Apple iphone ads

"There's a vaccine for that"

I would never ever trust pharmaceutical companies for reliability, safety or truth

[kathymuggle]

Hey CanadianHippie,

I found this online that might interest you:

http://www.oahpp.ca/resources/documents/presentations/2012aug10/Pertussis%20webinar%20-%2008.10.12%20Final.pdf

It looks like there are projected to be 6 cases of confirmed pertussis in Ontario this year per 100 000 population.  1 in 16 000.  Pg. 9.

It also looks like there was a change in 2009 to include probable cases in statistics.  Hmmmmm…..

This site says there were 277 cases of whooping cough last year.  12 million (population of Ontario) divided by 277 is about 1 in 43 000

1 in 16 000  to 1 in 43 000 is not nothing - but the way the media goes on, you would think pertussis was everywhere…...

good luck deciding,

kathy

[Minerva23]

http://www.cbs8.com/story/19479083/2-whooping-cough-cases-reported-at-san-diego-county-schools

I find it interesting that one of the commentors wants to vaccinate everybody each year with the whooping cough vaccine. But isn't it always combined with TD? So I am just wondering what the result of overvaccinating esp. for Tetanus would be? Any input here please

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Minerva23 

http://www.cbs8.com/story/19479083/2-whooping-cough-cases-reported-at-san-diego-county-schools

I find it interesting that one of the commentors wants to vaccinate everybody each year with the whooping cough vaccine. But isn't it always combined with TD? So I am just wondering what the result of overvaccinating esp. for Tetanus would be? Any input here please

I love this:

"Both students were up-to-date on immunizations.

County health officials urge all parents to get their children vaccinated."

Makes total sense.

[Minerva23]

Originally Posted by Bokonon 

I love this:

"Both students were up-to-date on immunizations.

County health officials urge all parents to get their children vaccinated."

Makes total sense.

Makes sense when you want to contract whooping cough

[Minerva23]

Oh I just learned that Bordetella parapertussis is not only hosted by humans but also sheep.

[rachelsmama]

Originally Posted by Minerva23 

Oh I just learned that Bordetella parapertussis is not only hosted by humans but also sheep.

And here I am, sitting on my hands, trying not to type that contentious word that mashes the common names of the two affected species together.......

[canadianhippie]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Hey CanadianHippie,

I found this online that might interest you:

http://www.oahpp.ca/resources/documents/presentations/2012aug10/Pertussis%20webinar%20-%2008.10.12%20Final.pdf

It looks like there are projected to be 6 cases of confirmed pertussis in Ontario this year per 100 000 population.  1 in 16 000.  Pg. 9.

It also looks like there was a change in 2009 to include probable cases in statistics.  Hmmmmm…..

This site says there were 277 cases of whooping cough last year.  12 million (population of Ontario) divided by 277 is about 1 in 43 000

1 in 16 000  to 1 in 43 000 is not nothing - but the way the media goes on, you would think pertussis was everywhere…...

good luck deciding,

kathy

Thanks Kathy! I didnt know it was that small

[prosciencemum]

It does make sense. While you are still not 100% protected against whooping cough, the vaccination will reduce the chance of you having bad (or any) case by a substantial amount (less than 100%, but enough to make it worth doing in my opinion). 

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

It does make sense. While you are still not 100% protected against whooping cough, the vaccination will reduce the chance of you having bad (or any) case by a substantial amount (less than 100%, but enough to make it worth doing in my opinion). 

And increase your chances of passing it onto another, for example a young infant who's system is not yet mature enough to handle pertussis. Prosciencemum, do you understand the concept of Original Antigenic Sin in relation to pertussis vaccine? This explains why the vaccine does not work, ever.

[prosciencemum]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

And increase your chances of passing it onto another, for example a young infant who's system is not yet mature enough to handle pertussis. Prosciencemum, do you understand the concept of Original Antigenic Sin in relation to pertussis vaccine? This explains why the vaccine does not work, ever.

Why does being better protected from a disease increase your chances of passing it on? That makes no sense to me. By removing the bacteria more quickly from the system, having an immune system ready to react to pertussis will protect not only you but also reduce the chance of you passing on the disease.

This is the first time I have heard of "Original Antigenic Sin". Horrible name.... (OT). Wikipedia articles claims it's important in vaccinations, but does not include citations to those statements (except the original 1960s one) are given. Seems like an interesting idea, but it contradicts my understanding of the way the immune system works (doesn't mean it's wrong, just that I'm skeptical of it, particuarly when it's a 50 year old idea which appears to have been little used). 

 Vaccines demonstrably work in many cases (small pox for example) so in my opinion an argument which includes a statement that they never work is completely worthless.....  

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

 

Why does being better protected from a disease increase your chances of passing it on? That makes no sense to me. By removing the bacteria more quickly from the system, having an immune system ready to react to pertussis will protect not only you but also reduce the chance of you passing on the disease.

This is the first time I have heard of "Original Antigenic Sin". Horrible name.... (OT). Wikipedia articles claims it's important in vaccinations, but does not include citations to those statements (except the original 1960s one) are given. Seems like an interesting idea, but it contradicts my understanding of the way the immune system works (doesn't mean it's wrong, just that I'm skeptical of it, particuarly when it's a 50 year old idea which appears to have been little used). 

 Vaccines demonstrably work in many cases (small pox for example) so in my opinion an argument which includes a statement that they never work is completely worthless.....  

You are correct the Original Antigenic Sin isn't used much these days, they have given it a more PC name, its now called "linked epitope suppression".

Because of Original Antigenic Sin, the pertussis vaccine does not protect from whooping cough, therefore someone will not react to it in the same way as a natural infection and can be a silent carrier, and thus infect others. Now I will explain why. When an unvaccinated person is infected with pertussis bacteria, their body produces a toxin which stops the immune system from recognizing the bacteria immediately. It takes about two weeks for the body to realize this. The toxin is ACT (adenylate cyclase toxin) and it is the most important "antigen" in immunity process; the body produces very high levels of it. Next time a person comes into contact with pertussis, it goes into high gear and rapidly clears the bacteria from the system. ACT forms the whole basis of the initial immune response to pertussis and it is crucial in removing the bacteria during the healing phase. The vaccine does not contain it because ACT is made in the body, and it can't be made in a test tube, so in vaccination the process is missed out. When a vaccinated person is challenged with pertussis the bacteria is able to get a good hold it as has nothing stopping it. The immune system will not respond to ACT because the program was written by its encounter with the vaccine ingredients and not the natural bacteria.

What a shame Dr Offit didn't mention this in his vaccine course. 

That vaccines work is your opinion, as you can see from the above pertussis is very iffy. I am not even going to bother to go into the vaccine eradicated smallpox myth in this thread, it has been hashed to death elsewhere. 

[kathymuggle]

Here is a link from yesteryear with a lot of good links and discussion in it:

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1226677/pertussis-vaccine-does-it-prevent-transmission

As vaccines go, I think it is a flop.  

It has been nowhere near as successful as other vaccines in doing what it is intended to do.

Do I think it is worthless?

Not necessarily.

I am not a vaxxer, so this is not my call to make 

I imagine there is a point at which a vaccine is simply too ineffective, too dangerous, or requires too many boosters  to get the shot.  I think we might reach that tipping point for the pertussis vaccine.  I think a better vaccine is in order, and I am not sure why vaxxers do not demand one, as they are the ones taking the risks.

Edited by kathymuggle - 9/11/12 at 7:49am

[erigeron]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

Because of Original Antigenic Sin, the pertussis vaccine does not protect from whooping cough, therefore someone will not react to it in the same way as a natural infection and can be a silent carrier, and thus infect others. Now I will explain why. When an unvaccinated person is infected with pertussis bacteria, their body produces a toxin which stops the immune system from recognizing the bacteria immediately. It takes about two weeks for the body to realize this. The toxin is ACT (adenylate cyclase toxin) and it is the most important "antigen" in immunity process; the body produces very high levels of it. Next time a person comes into contact with pertussis, it goes into high gear and rapidly clears the bacteria from the system. ACT forms the whole basis of the initial immune response to pertussis and it is crucial in removing the bacteria during the healing phase. The vaccine does not contain it because ACT is made in the body, and it can't be made in a test tube, so in vaccination the process is missed out. When a vaccinated person is challenged with pertussis the bacteria is able to get a good hold it as has nothing stopping it. The immune system will not respond to ACT because the program was written by its encounter with the vaccine ingredients and not the natural bacteria.

Got a source for this? 

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by erigeron 

 

Got a source for this? 

You think I made this all up? Search this thread and the other recent threads on Whooping Cough, it is all in there. Also do a search on Dr James Cherry, he is the pertussis vaccine guru and he knows all about it.