Its not just a personal choice - Page 10

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by RachaelM 

It's important to realise that almost all adults are "not vaccinated" in many "vax preventable diseases" because the long term immunity of vaccines is as short as a few years in some cases. 

Agreed.

Many children are not fully immunized.  This CDC link say 23% of kids in the USA have not had all their immunization.

http://www.cdc.gov/media/pressrel/2008/r080904.htm

If people are really worried about low vaccine rates causing spikes in disease, harming babies and the immunocompromised, etc, they really need to look at adults and the undervaxxed populations, instead of hyperfocusing on the the small percent of the population who are unvaxxed by choice.

They don't want to look at adults because most adults are undervaxxed - and the blame game is no fun when the finger points back at yourself.

They do not want to look at undervaxxed children, because that would mean dealing with bigger questions around child poverty and whether things such as universal health care should exist in the USA.

If the goal of pro-vaxxers is to increase vaccination, removing barriers to the adult population who want to vaccinate themselves and their children is the way to go.

Edited by kathymuggle - 8/19/12 at 7:25am

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Many children are not fully immunized.  This CDC link say 23% of kids in the USA have not had all their immunization.

http://www.cdc.gov/media/pressrel/2008/r080904.htm

If people are really worried about low vaccine rates causing spikes in disease, harming babies and the immunocompromised, etc, they really need to look at adults and the undervaxxed populations.

They don't want to look at adults because most adults are undervaxxed - and the blame game is no fun when the finger points back at yourself.

They do not want to look at undervaxxed children, because that would mean dealing with bigger questions around child poverty and whether things such as universal health care should exist.  

If the goal of pro-vaxxers is to increase vaccination, removing barriers to the adult population who want to vaccinate themselves and their children is the way to go.

I think you are spot on here Kathy. 

[tonttu]

First of all , I live in the middle of Sweden , and in our play group alone , about 90 % of the kids ( I know this b/c we had a discussion about it once ) have in fact been vacced against CP .

It is not automatically done , but parents , such as me , do ask for it and it did not cost me anything Whether they forgot to send me a bill , I don´t know , but that is the fact here !

And since I live in Sweden , where we have universal health care , we don´t have the problem with many adults not getting their vacc boosters , since it is free , it was the same in Germany ( my birth place ) and in Finland , where I lived , before I moved here .

And while I don´t have many good things to say about Finland otherwise , they have health care for everybody and a traumatic delivery with a difficult pregnancy beforehand , that involved many , many check-ups and a long hospital stay for me as well as baby  cost me roughly about the equivalent of 100 US Dollars ( altogether )

So maybe the big problem in the US is , that you have a failing system , that does not provide for its people , and we know it can work , since it has in Europe for decades now .

And before you say , that doctors have a financial incentive to vacc because of the money they get from pharmaceutical companies , that is not true in Sweden , since we have no private docs here , they are employed by the hospital and get a salary , so they could really care less about a pharma company .
 

[Mirzam]

Vaccines don't make you healthy

Vaccines as cluster bombs

Vaccines do not, as claimed, “improve immunity.” Even the most rudimentary understanding of what the immune system does would make that obvious.  Vaccines jump the immune system to deliver foreign matter that could never have gotten past it otherwise.  This is foreign matter that the immune system is left helplessly unable to rid itself of.  Foreign matter is lodged permanently in the body, leaving it no longer perfect but broken, impaired.  Bodily integrity is literally destroyed.

 

[Sharlla]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

 because most cases of so-called vaccine injury are in fact not related to the vaccine at all !

i'd love to see your data on this. could you please provide a link?

[tonttu]

Originally Posted by Sharlla 

i'd love to see your data on this. could you please provide a link?

I´d rather see the data , that proves , that they are !

[micah_mae_]

Originally Posted by tonttu 


I´d rather see the data , that proves , that they are !

In a debate you can't just state something and say "prove me wrong". The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. You. If you cant, don't use the statement in the debate.

[Imakcerka]

[AmandaT]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

I´d rather see the data , that proves , that they are !

And you've already stated, in another thread, that court cases proving harm done by vaccine don't work for you, correct?

[tonttu]

Well , if you can read german , I can look up a few links !

Plus , I did not initially make those claims , others here have stated , that their kids had vaccine damage and that they were being compensated , so I am sure , it is easy for them to show the facts about that !
 

[Louisw]

Originally Posted by frito99 

Vaccination is not some conspiracy that every country on earth just happens to buy into. It has eradicated small pox, nearly eradicated polio, rubella, tetanus, and diptheria. 

"It has eradicated small pox, nearly eradicated polio, rubella, tetanus, and diptheria."

Lets look at polio. There now exists MANY types of polio. The wild polio virus still exists and does the same types of damage as it did 50 years ago. These diseases resulting from the wild polio virus have just been renamed. But now we also have the "polio vaccine". 100 million people and counting have been infected with the SV-40 cancer causing virus thanks to the wonderful "polio vaccine". If EVERYONE had NOT "vaccinated" with the "polio vaccine" disaster the WORLD would be far better off.

"Polio has not been eradicated by vaccination, it is lurking behind a redefinition and new diagnostic names like viral or aseptic meningitis. When the first, injectible polio vaccine was tested on some 1.8 million children in the United States in 1954, within 9 days there was huge epidemic of paralytic polio in the vaccinated and some of their parents and other contacts. The US Surgeon General discontinued the trial for 2 weeks."  Doctor Viera Scheibner PhD

"SV-40 is the genetic glue which permits different DNAs to recombine to produce mutations and anomalies, and which allows toxic substances to penetrate cells more readily. Human blood specimens preserved frozen for 25 years have been found contaminated with this virus. More importantly, wherever SV-40 goes, so goes HIV and other green monkey viruses. The question is, how did these viruses find their way into humans so quickly and uniformly? Dr. Snead found the answer in 1987, and the Baylor study did so in 1999. According to sources cited by Dr. Snead, cells from the African green monkey have been used since 1953 as a growth medium for the polio vaccine.”   Cancer, Aids, and Vaccinations

"The SV 40 virus causes malignancies. It has now been identified in 43 % of cases of non-Hodgkin lymphoma[10] , 36 % of brain tumors[11] , 18 % of healthy blood samples, and 22 % of healthy semen samples, mesothiolomas and other malignancies. By the time of this discovery SV 40 had already been injected into 10,000,000 people in Salk vaccine. Gastric digestion inactivates some of SV 40 in Sabin vaccine. However, the isolation of strains of Sabin polio vaccine from all 38 cases of Guillan Barre Syndrome[12] GBS in Brazil suggests that significant numbers of persons are able to be infected from this vaccine. All 38 of these patients had received Sabin polio vaccine months to years before the onset of GBS. The incidence of non-Hodgkin lymphoma has ”mysteriously” doubled since the 1970s."    Why You Should Avoid Taking Vaccines

“A poor diet has also been shown to increase susceptibility to polio [25]. In 1948, during the height of the polio epidemics, Dr. Benjamin Sandler, a nutritional expert at the Oteen Veterans’ Hospital, documented a relationship between polio and an excessive use of sugars and starches. He compiled records showing that countries with the highest per capita consumption of  sugar, such as the United States, Britain, Australia, Canada, and Sweden (with over 100 pounds per person per year) had the greatest incidence of polio [26]. In contrast, polio was practically unheard of in China  (with its sugar use of only 3 pounds per person per year) [26].”   The Polio Vaccine

Above we see the answer to disease is NOT "vaccination"; it is KNOWLEDGE and sound health.

FORCING your neighbor to "vaccinate" may harm YOUR children.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

Originally Posted by Sharlla 

i'd love to see your data on this. could you please provide a link?

I´d rather see the data , that proves , that they are !

You have been provided with these links by very patient posters ad nauseum.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

Well , if you can read german , I can look up a few links !

Plus , I did not initially make those claims , others here have stated , that their kids had vaccine damage and that they were being compensated , so I am sure , it is easy for them to show the facts about that !
 

They proved their cases in a court of law. But IIRC, you believe they were compensated out of pity. So, that means, according to you, in the US our poor gullible government as shelled out over 2  billion dollars to con artist parents who "played" them.

[tonttu]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

You have been provided with these links by very patient posters ad nauseum.

I have yet to see independent research , that conclusively and without financial or other interest shows , that every person with a claim of vaccine damage  actually has it .

By no means am I saying or implying , that VD does not exist .

I know , that people can and do suffer from side effects of medication , which is what a vaccine is after all , but it needs to be seen in relation with the number of people being vaccinated every year and the ones , that really suffer ill effects from it !

But the undisputable fact remains , that thanks to vaccination , we have eradicated smallpox and near eradicated diseases like polio , diphteria and others , that used to claim the lives of thousands of people and only thanks to those achievements can people  say " we choose not to vacc , we´d rather take the chance "

And no matter , what " research " others provide me with , this is a hard fact , that has been proven throughout history

[marsupial-mom]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Many children are not fully immunized. This CDC link say 23% of kids in the USA have not had all their immunization.

http://www.cdc.gov/media/pressrel/2008/r080904.htm

If people are really worried about low vaccine rates causing spikes in disease, harming babies and the immunocompromised, etc, they really need to look at adults and the undervaxxed populations, instead of hyperfocusing on the the small percent of the population who are unvaxxed by choice.

They don't want to look at adults because most adults are undervaxxed - and the blame game is no fun when the finger points back at yourself.

They do not want to look at undervaxxed children, because that would mean dealing with bigger questions around child poverty and whether things such as universal health care should exist in the USA.

If the goal of pro-vaxxers is to increase vaccination, removing barriers to the adult population who want to vaccinate themselves and their children is the way to go.

Why would you say that I'm "hyperfocusing" on the unvaxxed by choice? I'm having a conversation here with some parents who choose not the vax but clearly in other parts of my life I am actually vaccinating children who might not be vaccinated otherwise. Foster parent here, remember? The kids who come in my home receive vaccinations that they might not have received otherwise. So please do not accuse me of not caring about children in poverty. Leave the ad hominem attacks out of the discussion, please.

In regards to adults, they simply don't spread disease as quickly as children do. They have better hygeine habits, they tend to have larger areas of personal space, and they have built up more natural immunity. Unvaxxed adults are simply less likely to spread disease than unvaxxed children.

But I absolutely agree that we ought to "remove barriers to the adult population who want to vaccinate themselves and their children".

And that link you posted says this:

"For each group of vaccinated children born during a given year, an estimated 14.3 million cases of vaccine-preventable diseases and 33,500 premature deaths are prevented over the course of a lifetime. In addition, vaccination results in a total savings of $43.3, billion, including $9.9 billion in direct medical costs."

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

And no matter , what " research " others provide me with , this is a hard fact , that has been proven throughout history

So basically you have no intention of learning anything from these debates, because you discount any research that contradicts your mindset.  Good to know.

[Imakcerka]

Originally Posted by Bokonon 

So basically you have no intention of learning anything from these debates, because you discount any research that contradicts your mindset.  Good to know.

Well I'll admit this person is discounting pretty much everything but isn't that pretty normal round here?

[tonttu]

Originally Posted by marsupial-mom 

In regards to adults, they simply don't spread disease as quickly as children do. They have better hygeine habits, they tend to have larger areas of personal space, and they have built up more natural immunity. Unvaxxed adults are simply less likely to spread disease than unvaxxed children.

But I absolutely agree that we ought to "remove barriers to the adult population who want to vaccinate themselves and their children".

And that link you posted says this:

"For each group of vaccinated children born during a given year, an estimated 14.3 million cases of vaccine-preventable diseases and 33,500 premature deaths are prevented over the course of a lifetime. In addition, vaccination results in a total savings of $43.3, billion, including $9.9 billion in direct medical costs."

That is exactly the point , I am trying to make !

Yes , there are many adults ,  that are not doing boosters of vacines , they have received as children , but in an adult´s case , it is not really THAT huge of a deal , but children are so much more vulnerable

I personally would never get the flu shot , I see no benefit in it whatsoever , but there are people who do and they are happy with their decision , I am simply not one of them , especially after the research I have done on the matter !

Instead of focusing on a small group of people , that may encounter adverse reactions to vaccines , let´s focus on the huge number of people , that don´t and give them a chance to protect themselves and their kids by giving them access to health care !

Anybody , who wants to know , how that will work , simply needs to look at Europe , where we have successfully practized this for decades .

[serenbat]

So maybe the big problem in the US is , that you have a failing system , that does not provide for its people , and we know it can work , since it has in Europe for decades now .

And before you say , that doctors have a financial incentive to vacc because of the money they get from pharmaceutical companies , that is not true in Sweden , since we have no private docs here , they are employed by the hospital and get a salary , so they could really care less about a pharma company .

the US is sooooooooo vastly different in many health respects that I see little comparison to what you have -it thrives on $$$$, we don't mandate sick days nor insurance (as of yet!!) for all, so even a simple cold can kill someone here with no means of access

-I do have insurance and it will not pay for a visit, will not pay for a titer test (only certain ones and only if I am pregnant) it will not pay for vaccines at all- and I have what is considered good insurance

You can't know the vax status of every person you see/come into contact 

use to be we did know somethings- if you are of certain age you might have a tell tail mark on your arm- but I can tell you that it can be funny to have to explain what that mark is to a much younger person in the middle of sex 

[tonttu]

But that is horrible , I lived in the US for several years and while I was lucky to have military insurance through my late husband , I´ve seen many people ( hardworking people ) , struggle .

And that is an awful thing , if you have to choose between paying your rent or your kids´medical bills .

I really feel blessed to live here , I can have unpaid maternity leave for as long as I basically want to and it costs absolutely nothing for my kids to go to the doctor or dentist .  And I pay about 10 US Dollars for the initial visit at the health center and then the next 3 months it costs nothing anymore , I only have to pay 75 % of the prize of prescription drugs , but once your whole family together goes over 600 US Dollars a year , the rest of the medication is free

And I could go on and on about it , we get money from the government for each kid every month , regardless of income , education is free , ...

Well , I don´t want to write a whole book now , but you get the point ....