Its not just a personal choice - Page 11

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Imakcerka 

Well I'll admit this person is discounting pretty much everything but isn't that pretty normal round here?

It is one thing to believe that the benefits outweigh the risk, but quite another entirely to deny that there are any risks despite copious evidence to the contrary.  To dismiss everything the opposing side posts summarily and insult those who believe differently, over and over again, is over the top.  I'm not sure what "normal round here" is supposed to mean - it's a forum with much debate.  Isn't that the case where most divisive issues are concerned?

[tonttu]

Originally Posted by Bokonon 

It is one thing to believe that the benefits outweigh the risk, but quite another entirely to deny that there are any risks despite copious evidence to the contrary.  To dismiss everything the opposing side posts summarily and insult those who believe differently, over and over again, is over the top.  I'm not sure what "normal round here" is supposed to mean - it's a forum with much debate.  Isn't that the case where most divisive issues are concerned?

Then PLEASE , stop denying all the clear evidence out there , that speaks in favor of vaccines ! 

We all know , that there are some risks involved , but let´s stop blowing things out of proportion , for God´s sake and stop insulting those of us , who are trying to make an informed choice for our kids and ourselves . 

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

Then PLEASE , stop denying all the clear evidence out there , that speaks in favor of vaccines ! 

We all know , that there are some risks involved , but let´s stop blowing things out of proportion , for God´s sake and stop insulting those of us , who are trying to make an informed choice for our kids and ourselves . 

Where did I insult anyone who tries to make an informed choice?  I made an informed choice for my kids and myself and you don't accept that is good enough.  I watched my child have a vaccine reaction that you believe I made up in my head.  

I am not interested in discussing this further with someone who is not interested in learning more about the known and documented risks and disadvantages to vaccinating and does not respect a different belief from your own.

[tonttu]

Originally Posted by Bokonon 

Where did I insult anyone who tries to make an informed choice?  

In every single thread , where people discussed the pro versus the cons of vaccination ! 

And I never said , you made your kid´s vaccine reaction up in your head , but I am also not letting somebody , who doesn´t even know me , say , that I don´t know what I am talking about 

I had a cousin ( who also happened to be my best friend ) , who died from measles , because his ignorant mother believed , that you don´t have to vaccinate against a " harmless " childhood disease and almost lost my oldest daughter to equally " harmless " CP , when she was 7 months old . 

So , sorry if you or any anti-vaccers on here find that offensive , but nothing will ever convince me , that risks outweigh the benefits when it comes VPD  and yes , there may be a few kids , that have adverse reactions , but there are thousands , who don´t and whose lives are saved because of vaccines 

[emma1325]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

In every single thread , where people discussed the pro versus the cons of vaccination ! 

And I never said , you made your kid´s vaccine reaction up in your head , but I am also not letting somebody , who doesn´t even know me , say , that I don´t know what I am talking about 

I had a cousin ( who also happened to be my best friend ) , who died from measles , because his ignorant mother believed , that you don´t have to vaccinate against a " harmless " childhood disease and almost lost my oldest daughter to equally " harmless " CP , when she was 7 months old . 

So , sorry if you or any anti-vaccers on here find that offensive , but nothing will ever convince me , that risks outweigh the benefits when it comes VPD  and yes , there may be a few kids , that have adverse reactions , but there are thousands , who don´t and whose lives are saved because of vaccines 

There is simply no way to make an accurate risk benefit analysis since the official vaccine reporting system is so highly flawed.  So your position is based largely on emotions and assumptions.  There is also no way to know if your cousin would have died from the measles vaccine (a possible side effect), or if your 7 month old would have had an equally scary experience with the chicken pox vaccine (when she got it at/after 12 months).  Since there's no reliable data on how the current vaccine schedule which utilizes several vaccines in combination affects the immune system, it is also possible that previous vaccine damage to the immune system weakened your cousin's and child's defenses to the diseases they contracted.

How old was your cousin who died from measles?  Was this a healthy individual with no other health concerns?  Did her "ignorant" mother vaccinate for other diseases?

[Louisw]

Originally Posted by tonttu 

But the undisputable fact remains , that thanks to vaccination , we have eradicated smallpox and near eradicated diseases like polio , diphteria and others , that used to claim the lives of thousands of people

This is pure myth.

Almost ALL the decrease in childhood disease occurred BEFORE the introduction of "vaccination"

http://genesgreenbook.com/resources/obamsawin/ImmunizationGraphs-RO2009.pdf

http://www.naturalnews.com/SpecialReports/VaccinesFullStory/v1/VaccineReport-EN.pdf

[Louisw]

Originally Posted by emma1325 

There is simply no way to make an accurate risk benefit analysis since the official vaccine reporting system is so highly flawed. 

Bingo!

Many doctors will not report "vaccine" reactions. The CDC knows this and could provide a decent system. The CDC will not because they know the risks of "vaccination" VASTLY exceed the gain.

But it may not matter, MANY parents are figuring it out themselves and VASTLY restricting "vaccination". As this knowledge gets passed among the sisterhood the drive for forced "vaccination" grows.

IMO the straw that broke the camels back was the extremely toxic and extremely profitable "HPV vaccination". So many girls have been killed and seriously harmed for NO proven benefit it woke up LOTS of parents. This may have started what I have been praying for for a LONG time, a critical examination of the practice of "vaccination" by the women having the "vaccine" toxins injected into their flesh and blood.

“Two years ago, Dr. Diane Harper, one of the lead researchers for Gardasil blew the whistle on the vaccine, saying that girls and their parents need to receive more complete information before accepting the inoculation. Dr. Harper, who participated in the Phase 2 and 3 trials to get Gardasil approved and authored several papers on it, raised serious questions about the vaccine's risks-benefit profile.  And, according to Dr. Harper, the available data suggests the vaccine's protective effects do not last beyond five years.”    The Silent Plan to Poison Your Child

"Doctor Diane Harper, lead researcher in the development of two human papilloma virus vaccines, Gardasil and Cervarix, said the controversial drugs will do little to reduce cervical cancer rates and, even though they’re being recommended for girls as young as nine, there have been no efficacy trials in children under the age of 15."  Note when asked why she was coming forward with this startling information Doctor Harper stated "I have to be able to sleep with myself"

[kathymuggle]

nm

[serenbat]

Originally Posted by marsupial-mom 

In regards to adults, they simply don't spread disease as quickly as children do. They have better hygeine habits, they tend to have larger areas of personal space, and they have built up more natural immunity. Unvaxxed adults are simply less likely to spread disease than unvaxxed children.

Nonsense.

sure is and this goes back to the US policies for general health- most public schools will send home students that are sick-most businesses (where the adults are) will not-most adults no longer get sick days-you can try all you want to be healthy but the cube next to you is still going to stay hacking away and many have several jobs and many are part time with no paid leave

our whole system need help, better access to medical and food, not to mention real basic need care (paid work leaves, etc) 

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

sure is and this goes back to the US policies for general health- most public schools will send home students that are sick-most businesses (where the adults are) will not-most adults no longer get sick days-you can try all you want to be healthy by the cube next to you is still going to stay hacking away and many have several jobs and many are part time with no paid leave

our whole system need help, better access to medical and food, not to mention real basic need care (paid work leaves, etc) 

Lol - you got me before I decided I was being redundant and erased (the nm above)

Here is an article that shows just how few adults are up to date on their vaccines:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/adults-vaccinations/story?id=9762539#.UDGcS46RB7E

"Among all adults, the investigators also found extremely low rates of immunization against tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis (2.1 percent), shingles (less than 2 percent), human papillomavirus (10 percent), and seasonal influenza (36.1 percent)."

And yes, people go to work sick.  It happens all.the.time.

I don't agree with the social responsibility argument, but I can see where they are coming from.

It completely falls down, however, if your own adult boosters are not up to date - then you are just a big old hypocrit who likes to point fingers and deny your own culpability.

Edited by kathymuggle - 8/20/12 at 5:14am

[serenbat]

I think (like it or not) in the US "social" plays a much bigger role vs other countries (that being with adults the most) most simply can not take time off, see a Dr, etc- this plays into a over all problem- vaccines do cost in the US and you can't just walk in and say give me this vaccine- your office visit alone means food to tooooo many people, it's a big problem in general with over all health care and that factors into the lives of many - it's basic reasons why US adults are not up to date, sadly, most are social reasons-IMO

not saying social responsibility here- saying "social" as in means to obtain health services 

[katelove]

I in no way wish to say anything in support of the US health care system, the more I read the more horrified I am by it. However, I don't think it is entirely to blame for low adult vaccination rates. Australia has paid sick leave for most (?all) workers, subsidized GP visits, free vaccination programs for various population considered "at risk" and subsidized vaxxes for others, free ED care for everyone etc and we still don't have high rates of adult vaccination across the board. I couldn't find data for all VPDs, although I only made a brief search, but for the ones I could find rates varied from about 20% to about 50%.

I think vaccination is just not on the radar for most adults unless it's something getting heavy media coverage or their job requires it. I know I only updated my boosters when I was starting a new job which required it.

[sassyfirechick]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

No, they cannot carry disease just as easily. They are far less likely to carry disease.

Anyone can carry a disease, regardless of vax status.  Some people show symptoms, some don't - the vaccine doesn't change that.  And you'd never even know if someone was carrying something without titering anyways.

     Quote:

Originally Posted by tonttu 

Here , where I live , most young kids get vacced against CP now , which makes sense , considering how dangerous CP can be .

And there have been a couple of cases , where kids picked them up and their cases were a lot milder than they would have most likely been , if they wouldn´t have had the vacc .

And my daughter didn´t get them at all , even though she was in extremely close contact with somebody at her day care center , who started showing  symptoms the same afternoon

That is most likely , because most cases of so-called vaccine injury are in fact not related to the vaccine at all !

How do you know their cases were milder?  You don't.  Maybe they would have had the same reaction if they weren't vaxxed.  Maybe it would have been worse.  You can't say they were milder unless you can go back in time and change the vax status and relive the disease.  The only way to compare is to look at the numbers of hundreds of kids whove had CP (or any other VPD) and compare groups of vaxxed and non-vaxxed to see what symptoms each has, duration, etc., then you can draw conclusions on how bad it really is.  I had CP as a kid.  I'm doing just fine.

And how do you get off saying "so-called" vaccine injurires are not related to vaccines?  Anything that occurs in a child that is out of the norm after getting a vax, is vaccine related.  But what you are saying is that when my healthy daughter suffered from a fever and 24/7 blood curdling screaming not 2hrs after her first DTaP, and when she went from fully alert to dazed and confused and anxious and didn't sleep more than 45min for over a month (when previously she was sleeping for 12hrs) or any of the other issues like stomache upset and spitting up - things that she had not done prior - those were all in my head? A complete coincidence that she would suffer from so many things after having a vaccine?  How nice of you to place the blame on the parents of thse children who are clearly a bunch of over-exaggerating wingnuts.  I feel so much better that all of her reactions must have been a bad dream from my lack of sleep.

Originally Posted by tonttu 

I have yet to see independent research , that conclusively and without financial or other interest shows , that every person with a claim of vaccine damage  actually has it .

By no means am I saying or implying , that VD does not exist .

I know , that people can and do suffer from side effects of medication , which is what a vaccine is after all , but it needs to be seen in relation with the number of people being vaccinated every year and the ones , that really suffer ill effects from it !

But the undisputable fact remains , that thanks to vaccination , we have eradicated smallpox and near eradicated diseases like polio , diphteria and others , that used to claim the lives of thousands of people and only thanks to those achievements can people  say " we choose not to vacc , we´d rather take the chance "

And no matter , what " research " others provide me with , this is a hard fact , that has been proven throughout history

Independent research seems lacking for everything - including vaccines and their risks.  It's not exactly without financial interest that the FDA funds reserach into vaccine safety. 

Originally Posted by tonttu 

So , sorry if you or any anti-vaccers on here find that offensive , but nothing will ever convince me , that risks outweigh the benefits when it comes VPD  and yes , there may be a few kids , that have adverse reactions , but there are thousands , who don´t and whose lives are saved because of vaccines 

Again, it comes down to not knowing.  You don't know that those vaxed kids would have been any worse off had they not been vaxed.  You don't know who is going to have a vaccine reaction - there is no rhyme or reason to it.  But you can reasonably weed out those who will have complications from VPD's or even be at risk of contracting them.  Those who chose not to vax, usually have a pretty good reason to believe that our kids are not in a larger risk group for VPD's or complications.  Healthy lifestyles go a long way.  Avoiding prescritions, antibiotics, and pesticides - things that harm the immune system and prevent it from functioning at it's optimum level.

     Quote:

Originally Posted by tonttu 

Then PLEASE , stop denying all the clear evidence out there , that speaks in favor of vaccines ! 

We all know , that there are some risks involved , but let´s stop blowing things out of proportion , for God´s sake and stop insulting those of us , who are trying to make an informed choice for our kids and ourselves . 

I do believe most of the insults come from the -pro-vax side.  Pro-decision is also about informed choice.  While I may not agree to vax my daughter anymore after her reactions, I hold no grudges against those that do.  I don't preach to anyone about why they shouldn't vax their kids.  If someone was to ask me about not vaxing, I wouldn't lie.  I also wouldn't lecture about stats.  I'd leave it open and answer questions.  But I can tell you I have NEVER, EVER had a single pro-vaxer NOT assault my decision to not vax.  Everything from the crazy looks and turning their kids away, to accusing me of child abuse.  My nurse friend lectures me non-stop.  But I have never said one word to her about her 4 kids who are fully vaxed and on every medication under the sun, from laxatives to inhalers.  But I'm the one who is endagering my child's health.  Funny how that works.

[doctortee]

"But I'm the one who is endagering my child's health.  Funny how that works."

No, its not funny at all. You endanger your child's health and the health of other children by not vaccinating, as diseases start to appear again due to the University of Google educated anti vax crowd.

Try and read a book such as Seth Mnookin's "The Panic Virus: A True Story of Medicine, Science, and Fear:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Panic-Virus-Medicine-Science/dp/B004WB1AAC/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1345450614&sr=8-3&keywords=mnookin

[TorreyMomma]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/fda-funding-boosted-through-lobbying-effort/2011/11/23/gIQAXHQ6CO_story.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/prescription/hazard/independent.html

To get actual tax dollars spent on pharmaceutical review vs. pharmaceutical dollars spent on same, you have to contact the government and wait for them to mail the info to you (or at least that is what I had to do a few years ago when I was researching vaccine safety.) In 2009 it worked out to less than 30% of pharmaceutical testing funds for the FDA were tax dollars. And pharmaceutical companies refused to have their fees pay for any safety oversight. Also, pharmaceutical companies when they contract for randomized trials require participating physicians and hospitals to sign non-disclosure statements which prohibit the physicians and hospitals from publishing any negative or contradictory information that might discredit the pharmaceutical companies hypothesis on how well the medication works. Since double blind studies pay participating physicians and hospitals quite a bit of money, and pharmaceutical pricing can make or break a hospital, there are very few out there who refuse to sign the paper. Since I work in the healthcare industry, I have access to information that I can not share, but suffice it to say I did lots of research and decided for our family the risks of not vaccinating were far less than vaccinating. We have chosen to do some vaccines, based on actual risk of dying from those illnesses, but we did not vaccinate my youngest for anything until his immune system tested as fully mature (at age 7).

[Mosaic]

tonttu, you have repeatedly referred to nonvaccinators as "ignorant", which is in clear violation of the forum guidelines which state, in part:

While no one should be labeled as irresponsible or uninformed for deciding to vaccinate, neither should parents here who have chosen to not vaccinate be accused of irresponsibility, not caring for their child, or presenting a threat to others. Please respect each other and refrain from statements that are condescending, hurtful, judgmental, and belittling.

Go back and edit your posts to remove such comments or you will no longer be able to participate in this thread.

eta:

doctortee: welcome to MDC! Please familiarize yourself with our forum guidelines and edit your post accordingly: http://www.mothering.com/community/a/vaccination-forum-guidelines
Edited by Mosaic - 8/20/12 at 5:42am

[TorreyMomma]

http://www.icnr.com/articles/vids.html This site is from Rebecca Carley, MD   It was given to me in paper form by my healthcare provider in 2009. Our healthcare provider refuses to give vaccines because her research has shown some horrible inaccuracies in vaccine information: both to under-reported VID and VD, as well as overestimations of benefits. She also had her properly vaccinated (according to CDC schedule) clients titer-tested (mostly she got insurances to pay for it but some of us paid out of pocket) and our titers were not high enough to suggest we were adequately protected. (Her refusal to do vaccines was prior to 2009.) I find it interesting that here in the US I can no longer get to the German and Japan journals of pediatric medicine that published data on trials proving vaccines cause damage, even in healthy children. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00046738.htm This site has not been updated since pharmaceutical funding of the FDA began.  http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/vac-admin/contraindications.htm  States in 2011 that the 2009 contraindications guidelines have been removed while being revised. (How long do you think it will be before it comes back?) Please notice that on this site a prior anaphylactic shock reaction is a contraindication to EVERY vaccine? Also, seizures are listed as a possibility for DTP, DTaP, etc. That would be the reaction my DS1 had that made us discontinue vaccines, especially since he quit walking and talking after that. These are the reasons that some parents choose to not vaccinate, because anaphylactic shock is also deadly. In fact, anaphylactic shock is such a concern that the EU requires vaccines for travellers to be administered a week before traveling in case "emergency medical care is needed after the vaccine that may exceed the regions ability to provide." (Sorry, now I can't get the link to successfully transfer, when I can I will repost. For some of us, the risk of anaphylactic shock and seizures leaving permanent injury is higher than the risk of our child dying from a given disease. Please respect the fact that we have researched and made very hard choices, and we will respect the fact that you feel your research is better than ours and you made what you feel are the very best choices for your child. Thank you for taking the time to read the above posted links.

[serenbat]

I think vaccination is just not on the radar for most adults unless it's something getting heavy media coverage or their job requires it. I know I only updated my boosters when I was starting a new job which required it.

have a conversation with most adults (those who do not have children) and they have no idea what the current US (and it is different depending on the state) so-called schedule even is-most if you do tell them are SHOCKED to hear how many vaccines are now given to children, they don't know they would need a booster 

most adults (even those with children) do not know what is and isn't required and that exemptions are legal and exist

it's nice to have research but I feel the masses are so behind on "basic" info that there is no way to make a real informed choice when you don't even know you can

personal choice is really hard to have when most do not know they even have a choice

Thank you for taking the time to read the above posted links.

thank you for posting!

[Cynthia Mosher]

I'm closing this thread temporarily for review and will reopen it after I've had a chance to go through all of the reports and address any issues. But I will start with this post:

Originally Posted by tonttu 

Yet again , shows that people who SAY they have done research , obviously really haven´t too thoroughly , otherwise they would know , that the first vaccine was actually developed by Edward Jenner , against small pox and happened during a time , when sanitation was surely not up to even the standard of the mid-20th century 

Plus , it was quite accepted, that many kids would not survive their childhood and often not even infancy , because they succumbed to VPD

It is also a known fact , that if you get vaccinated , when you are not suffering form a fever or other issues , but are obviously healthy , then there is no bad , adverse reaction . 

On the contrary , the body producing a fever or in the case of the CP vaccine a few blisters is actually a sign , that the body is reacting properly and doing , what it´s supposed to do , which is building immunity .

Now , the argument , that you don´t get sick , if you have a healthy immune system , okay ... I have to take a deep breath before I  respond to that , because that argument ....

A healthy immune system only means , that , if you get sick , you have a better chance of not dying or having irreparable damage from something , but there goes the herd immunity again , of course it is easy for people to say " I don´t vaccinate because it is soooo bad " , since we others , who have used our common sense and have vaccinated , have made sure that most otherwise common , dangerous illnesses have been near-eradicated . 

Which brings up another point , people who don´t vaccinate undermining everything that has been achieved by vaccine programs and endangering the life of my kids , that have not been vacc´d yet , because they are too small . I mean , if you want to die from tetanus , fine , go ahead , but I draw the line , where an unvacced germ bomb can infect my precious baby with something , that can harm her or even kill her . ,

tonttu, please edit your post to remove the unvacced germ bomb comment. Every baby is precious, even those who are not vaccinated. Your comment is inflammatory and does nothing to contribute to the discussion in a positive manner. If you continue to post in this manner you may lose your posting privileges. 

Anyone who has quoted or commented on this remark should edit as well. 

[pers]

Originally Posted by Louisw 

This is pure myth.

Almost ALL the decrease in childhood disease occurred BEFORE the introduction of "vaccination"

http://genesgreenbook.com/resources/obamsawin/ImmunizationGraphs-RO2009.pdf

The hottest day ever recorded in Fairbanks Alaska was 94 degrees in 1991.  Imagine, for a second, that someone used that point as a starting point for a graph, ignoring all colder weather that occurred before (including the coldest ever temperature that had been many years before), and then used a typical winter day of -10 or so a couple years later as an end point, with only a typical fall day as a mid point between them, not showing any of the other temperature ups and downs.  Would this sharply falling line cause you to worry about falling global temperature and conclude that we were in an ice age?

Because this is exactly what the authors of the graph in figure one of the link you posted have done with measles in Canada.  They took the highest point from this graph: http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/vpd-mev/tables/vpd-measles-cig2006-lrg_e.gif, ignored all data previous to it (including the actual year of lowest reported incidence prior to vaccine), and drew a line straight to the low point at 1959 - a point which should not even exist sine Measles was not nationally reportable for that year!  I'm not sure if the point on the source graph is just a problem from the software they were using not wanting to leave a blank space, or if they included partial data they did have, but here is the same information on a graph that ends with the last year they actually have complete data for, 1958:  http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/im/vpd-mev/measles-rougeole-eng.php (about half way down the page).  

There is no way that anyone with any sort of education in statistics would think that starting at an unusually high point and drawing a line directly to a very low point would in any way represent an actual trend in incidence.  It really speaks to the intellectual honesty of the graph and the author, and casts a shadow of doubt on all the rest of the graphs. 

Most of the disease graphs showing disease "went away" are actually mortality rates.  Deaths from disease did indeed fall drastically due to less malnutrition, better living conditions, clean water, sanitary practices, and better health care and medicine.  No one denies that disease did become a lot more survivable, though some did die and more suffered horribly and/or long term complications.  And some disease, primarily those spread by dirty water, did really go away.  

But highly contagious disease spread very easily directly from person to person such as measles, rubella, mumps, or chickenpox?  These were still extremely common disease that virtually everyone got during childhood right up until the vaccine.  They did not decline in incidence prior to vaccines, and Polio was at its very worst right before the vaccine was introduced.  

Figure 17 from makes it look really bad for the chickenpox vaccine!  However, if you look at the actual % vaccinated who got the disease vs. %unvaccianted, while the data shows that while breakthrough cases are possible in vaccinated (for which they do suggest a booster as a possible solution), vaccinated children were much less likely to get chickenpox than unvaxed.  But that wouldn't do at all, so instead they make a graphic that completely leaves out how much of the population vax and unvaxed represent.  Again with the intellectual dishonesty!

If you actually look at the outbreak figure 19 is from, including information as to just how small the outbreak was (which they conveniently left out) while it showed that some kids who had been vaxed were not immune, it is actually a fairly good example of herd immunity working as it should.  

Figure 25 is based on only five countries which were so obviously cherry picked to represent the story they wanted to tell it is ridiculous.  For instance, Denmark uses basically the same vax schedule as Sweden, but their under 5 mortality  (from the source listed) is 5.  Including Denmark would have messed up their neat little line of correlation, as would several other countries that don't fit their story.  Also, I can't see their source for counting vaccines as the link they give doesn't work, but based on looking at the actual schedules, their numbers aren't quite accurate for either Sweden or the US (the only two countries I looked up). 

Figure 26 - why would they stop at 2003 for showing under-5 influenza mortality in a graph created many years later?  Perhaps because later data wouldn't fit the story they were trying to tell?  Also, influenza deaths were not standardized and nationally reportable prior to 2003, so there may have been undercounts: http://www.preventinfluenza.org/newsletters/PediatricsKeyPoints.pdf

Those are the ones I could tell at a glance basically what was off on. Not going to bother looking into vaccination rates in Nigeria or the others, besides to mention that they are really stretching if they are trying to claim the last graph shows correlation between MMR/measles vaccination and autism because the two went up and down with data points sort of near each other, never mind that the rates don't match or the multiple instances of vaccination rate going down while autism rises.