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post #41 of 67

I wrote a response last night and then didn't submit. I see this morning, though, that Lynn has said all the things I wanted to say, but better than I did. 

 

I do think that what some are calling "dumbing down" can really be part of social or interpersonal intelligence. Surely we all know there are different kinds of intelligence? Someone who can write a brilliant novel or play may be crap at computer programming. Someone who is a great mathematician or mechanical engineer may be horrible at diplomacy or music. Maybe if you're one of those people who feel like you are constantly dumbing yourself down when talking to others you could reframe the scenario as practicing your skills in interpersonal intelligence.

 

I stress to my kids that different people are good at different things. I think a lot of times in school settings since there is such a big emphasis placed on academic performance that kids and adults can lose sight of the importance of interpersonal skills and just plain being a good friend. In many cases excellent interpersonal skills are going to take you further than academic skills— the old "it's who you know" adage. And certainly the combo of great interpersonal skills plus excellent academic performance is going to enable anyone to succeed more easily. If you're incredibly intelligent, but a jerk, no one is going to want to hire you or work for you. If you're incredibly intelligent and incredibly kind and caring everyone is going to be clamoring to work with you.

 

It's really disturbing to me that some of you had the experience in school where you had to act like you were not as smart as you are to fit in. It was never uncool to be smart in my childhood  (which was probably longer ago than your childhood since I'm one of the older moms here on MDC) or now. Being nerdy and geeky and awkward and socially inept, sure, that was uncool, but getting good grades and turning in your test quickly—no, that was never a problem. The town I grew up in is not particularly "smart" in any sense of the word, but being one of the smart kids in school is probably the only thing that kept me from being a total social outcast. Smart kids were fairly popular (though not cheerleader level status or anything) and pretty well respected. A higher degree of socially ineptness was tolerated if you were also smart, which probably saved me from total dorkdom. My parents also valued intelligence, but didn't push us at all. I recently went to my niece's high school graduation and she was one of 40+ valedictorians (all had 4.0 or better GPAs) which seems to speak to good grades, at least, not being a barrier to fitting in any more. 

 

I guess it really depends on the circle you find yourself in and/or create around yourself. If you're in a high school environment where intelligence and academic achievement is admired then the whole "dumbing down" thing doesn't come into play. Likewise as an adult if the circles you're in value intelligence (careers in academia, tech fields, medical, etc or just an area of the country with a lotta smart people) then using big words in conversation doesn't necessarily make you look pretentious. 

 

I'm really sorry that some of y'all feel like you have to not act smart to fit in. Here in my neck of the woods, I'm just struggling to follow along with what all the really smart, hard working (that's the key) people are doing. People here are making so much amazing stuff happen that I just feel like a bump on a log and like I have wasted so much time, but I'm just not that driven (or else I wouldn't be wasting my time posting herewhistling.gif).

post #42 of 67
Quote:

Originally Posted by beanma View Post
I recently went to my niece's high school graduation and she was one of 40+ valedictorians (all had 4.0 or better GPAs) which seems to speak to good grades, at least, not being a barrier to fitting in any more. 

Or it speaks to the changes in the public school system making 4.0s easier to achieve... :-/  I have a teaching degree and many friends who are teachers (I'm in NYS, which apparently is one of the top systems in the country?) and we have consistently made the regents exams easier and easier since I was in school.  Perhaps not, but I think this could go more than one way.   Even when I was in high school, we had an issue where our valedictorian was nearly a boy who was in special ed "easy" classes.  Our grades weren't weighted and his were highest by a hair.  Great for him, truly, but he wasn't doing the same level of work that others were doing, you know?  I'm not even sure how that ended up because I switched to a different school for my senior year, but I remember there was a big uproar about it.

post #43 of 67

No, this was in Fairfax county Va, which has a reputation as one of the best school systems in the country. They have one of the  top performing schools in the nation in Thomas Jefferson High School where my nephew went. (It was down from the #1 spot in US News & World Report's rankings to #2 this past year.) These were all very intelligent kids to the best of my knowledge. My niece certainly is very intelligent, well rounded and a high achiever, athletic, kind, friendly—the whole package. She was the kind of kid in high school that people looked up to and is plenty smart and I don't think she's ever felt the need to hide her intelligence. 

 

The same is true in our area. The high schools are excellent and courses are harder than many college level classes. Our community places great value on education and intelligence. Many people move to our area for the schools for their gifted kids. 

 

But even in my hometown, which did not have a reputation of excellent schools, being smart was cool—which was my point. I'm sorry for folks who feel like they have to hide their intelligence. That has never been my experience even when I wasn't in a particularly "smart" community. Intelligence and academic achievement has always been valued.

 

I've never been around people where I felt like I had to hide my intelligence. I have been around people where I felt like I had to use it in more creative ways and practice my interpersonal skills more. My mom has dementia and I can't talk to her about a lot of subjects that would confuse her more or cause her anxiety, but it is a challenge to communicate with her in ways that meet her where she is right now. It wears me out, actually. 

post #44 of 67

Ah.  Yeah, the school district we're in now is in the top 1000 high schools in the country.  Many doctors and lawyers and college professors living here.  It may be a similar deal, I'm not sure.  I'm homeschooling my kids, though, for the moment.

 

Honestly, my "smartness" issues may have been more in my head and driven by perfectionism than something the other kids cared too much about.  There was another kid in my  class who was pretty smart in elementary school (we were pretty well tied - though he was somewhat better in math and I was somewhat better in language), and he didn't get picked on as much, I guess.  I'll totally admit that I had many perfectionism issues  and other stuff driven by never being "good enough" for my father, so that was likely heavily involved.

post #45 of 67

I once started this thread just to tell a funny story but it seems to have struck a nerve with a lot of people in this forum:

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1300453/recovering-compulsive-correctors-unite

 

It's not about "dumbing down" exactly (which I agree is an unfortunate expression, maybe we should call it "choice of register") but about "compulsive correcting", which seems a typical giftie trait. I have such a hard time biting my tongue sometimes, not because I feel I need to flaunt my superior intellect or education, just that I have this strong need to get things right and I need to constantly remind myself that other people might find the correcting offensive or would prefer to save face in front of others rather than having a mistake pointed out. As a child, it was really hard to understand for me why someone would prefer to say the wrong thing if they could find out what the right thing was instead. Not that I was always right of course (as you can see in the thread I would have been wrong) but I'd happily debate what's right or wrong till the cows come home without ever being offended -  and need to remind myself that others find this trait obnoxious, too.

 

Edited to add an answer to your question about why as an adult I feel that school didn't serve me well.

Like a lot of others in this forum, I barely needed to study all the way through school, even after a grade skip and not even in a rigorous college track program, and still made almost straight As and went to university on a gifted scholarship. Result? no study skills whatsoever and I hit a major brick wall in law school.

Also, teacher and other parents kept telling me "you're not that smart" and "just wait till the college track program, they'll show you", accusing my mom of "working ahead" with me out of misplaced ambition and would later just presume I was working hard at home in order to make up for what I missed in school where I obviously was mostly daydreaming or goofing of and not working hard at all. I still can't fathom why people feel entitled to destroy a child's self esteem simply because the child is so obviously academically advanced. It's like you're just not supposed to exist. At least at some point my peers realized that I was somewhat different "for real" and couldn't help it and the bullying stopped. A feel that a gifted program, ie the official recognition "you exist, you're differant but it's okay and we'll teach you what you need" and teacher's acceptance might have made my experience a lot easier.

 

And regardless of whether you have the potential for good social skills or are just congenitally somewhat awkward as I was: there is no way to develp social skills if you spend almost all of elementary school completely isolated from your classmates due to bullying.


Edited by Tigerle - 8/27/12 at 10:27am
post #46 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heatherdeg View Post

I'm not sure I was gifted (although my non-IQ test scores got me the label), but I was absolutely academically advanced far beyond one grade skip and had VERY insanely good/mature insights on things as a child (which I kind of blow off to the home environment I grew up in).  For me, I was identified but not accommodated.  The result was a LOT of behavior problems out of boredom and honestly, I never studied a day in my life and had no clue how to study or really push to figure things out.  If it didn't come easy, I just didn't know how to deal with it and I could live the same life as 80% of the population by avoiding it.  Of course, when i got to college, THAT was a problem.  A huge one.  Sorry, but study skills are just necessary.




To be fair, I think we carried through your original terminology (I didn't quote the right post) but agreed that it's not the best term.  I've lived my whole life trying to break down what I'm saying to people who don't follow so I don't even think about it anymore--but yeah--it's always necessary.  As for me, I don't assume anyone is a Mensa student; but in my defense, I also don't assume I know more than anyone I meet and don't know.  Even the people I know, I assume that they hold some innate gift or talent that is just different from mine and equally admirable.  Which has usually been proven to be the case.  And I've always felt that way--even as a kid, but I was one of those kids that was extremely sensitive to others.


"Dumbing it down" was NOT my original terminology! I dislike that implication. Or am I misunderstanding, *again*?
post #47 of 67

I think it may have been my terminology.  To be fair I said I wasn't "dumbing it down"  But still.  Sorry about that, folks.  I agree (as I said previously) that it's not an accurate term.

post #48 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigerle View Post

And regardless of whether you have the potential for good social skills or are just congenitally somewhat awkward as I was: there is no way to develp social skills if you spend almost all of elementary school completely isolated from your classmates due to bullying.

 

Well said, Tigerle.

 

To respond to the OP's original question, I think the concept of giftedness and the identification of gifted kids is important within the school system, because educational interventions (enrichment, subject acceleration, pull-out, grade skip etc) may be necessary. Unidentified gifted kids may be more likely to have social and behavioural difficulties if their abilities and needs are not recognized. As with kids who have learning disabilities, the regular curriculum may not be a good fit and adjustments may be necessary. Regardless of their social skills, gifted kids may also be out of step with age peers in terms of interests, type of preferred play, vocabulary usage etc.

 

I don't see giftedness as a problem in itself, but I think that spending thirty plus hours a week in a system that doesn't recognize and meet their needs can certainly lead to problems for gifted children. It helps to have a framework for understanding and responding to these problems and there is a lot of research on giftedness that is useful in this regard. 

 

As adults, most of us have a reasonable amount of choice about how we spend our time and who we enjoy being with. We meet people based on mutual interests and we are not limited to working all day with people solely because they were born in the same year as us. Kids don't have that freedom. If they did, perhaps things would look very different. As it is though, I think that the concept of giftedness is a useful one. 

post #49 of 67
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beanma View Post

I wrote a response last night and then didn't submit. I see this morning, though, that Lynn has said all the things I wanted to say, but better than I did. 

I do think that what some are calling "dumbing down" can really be part of social or interpersonal intelligence. Surely we all know there are different kinds of intelligence? Someone who can write a brilliant novel or play may be crap at computer programming. Someone who is a great mathematician or mechanical engineer may be horrible at diplomacy or music. Maybe if you're one of those people who feel like you are constantly dumbing yourself down when talking to others you could reframe the scenario as practicing your skills in interpersonal intelligence.

I stress to my kids that different people are good at different things. I think a lot of times in school settings since there is such a big emphasis placed on academic performance that kids and adults can lose sight of the importance of interpersonal skills and just plain being a good friend. In many cases excellent interpersonal skills are going to take you further than academic skills— the old "it's who you know" adage. And certainly the combo of great interpersonal skills plus excellent academic performance is going to enable anyone to succeed more easily. If you're incredibly intelligent, but a jerk, no one is going to want to hire you or work for you. If you're incredibly intelligent and incredibly kind and caring everyone is going to be clamoring to work with you.

It's really disturbing to me that some of you had the experience in school where you had to act like you were not as smart as you are to fit in. It was never uncool to be smart in my childhood  (which was probably longer ago than your childhood since I'm one of the older moms here on MDC) or now. Being nerdy and geeky and awkward and socially inept, sure, that was uncool, but getting good grades and turning in your test quickly—no, that was never a problem. The town I grew up in is not particularly "smart" in any sense of the word, but being one of the smart kids in school is probably the only thing that kept me from being a total social outcast. Smart kids were fairly popular (though not cheerleader level status or anything) and pretty well respected. A higher degree of socially ineptness was tolerated if you were also smart, which probably saved me from total dorkdom. My parents also valued intelligence, but didn't push us at all. I recently went to my niece's high school graduation and she was one of 40+ valedictorians (all had 4.0 or better GPAs) which seems to speak to good grades, at least, not being a barrier to fitting in any more. 
 
I guess it really depends on the circle you find yourself in and/or create around yourself. If you're in a high school environment where intelligence and academic achievement is admired then the whole "dumbing down" thing doesn't come into play. Likewise as an adult if the circles you're in value intelligence (careers in academia, tech fields, medical, etc or just an area of the country with a lotta smart people) then using big words in conversation doesn't necessarily make you look pretentious. 

I'm really sorry that some of y'all feel like you have to not act smart to fit in. Here in my neck of the woods, I'm just struggling to follow along with what all the really smart, hard working (that's the key) people are doing. People here are making so much amazing stuff happen that I just feel like a bump on a log and like I have wasted so much time, but I'm just not that driven (or else I wouldn't be wasting my time posting here:W ).

Am I understanding this correctly, that a single school had 40+ valedictorians? Or is that the county?

I realize I went to school in the dark ages, but 40+ students tied for first would never have happened.
post #50 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post


"Dumbing it down" was NOT my original terminology! I dislike that implication. Or am I misunderstanding, *again*?

 

"again"?  I don't get the reference.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juvysen View Post

I think it may have been my terminology.  To be fair I said I wasn't "dumbing it down"  But still.  Sorry about that, folks.  I agree (as I said previously) that it's not an accurate term.

 

I had to actually search the thread but yeah... sorry.  pek64 asked us if we felt we had to dumb it down after your post where you introduced the term and I was responding to her use of it, but yeah--I see where you did introduce the term.  pek64 said s/he was offended by the term after she asked us if we felt we had to dumb it down (which wasn't in quotes, so I didn't realize s/he found it offensive).

post #51 of 67

interestingly, the problem was that I didn't feel that I needed to, but apparently other people couldn't keep up?  :-/  This is where the puzzlement comes in for me.  I don't know... am I supposed to "dumb it down" or am I supposed to just talk like I normally would and have people interrupt me with comments like that?  Is it my problem (i.e. I should have communicated in a different way) or is it theirs?  Typically i prefer to just go on like I normally would.  I generally only cut back if it becomes obvious that the person's not following... but that could be because I'm not a good communicator?  I'm not sure what to do with this situation, really.

post #52 of 67

I don't have my test scores as a child, but was identified as gifted and in honors tracked classes.  From doing more reading and research in regards to my own children, I would say that I fit into the moderately gifted range.  I had academic success, but was content to mostly coast.  I have a good vocabulary (my husband has a phenomenal one, and is, I believe profoundly gifted).  I generally hang with others that are similar, intellectually.  I just recently (as in the last year and a half) started working.  Due to not having a focused career and wanting flexibility so I can be around when the kids are not in school, I have been in retail.  A dear friend of mine helped me get the job. She sat me down to have a heart to heart a few months after starting.  Apparently, my enthusiasm to participate in conversations was coming off as being a "know it all".  I have learned to not talk so much and in depth about topics that come up.  I have learned to use words that are more accessible to those around me.  Honestly, while the conversation with my friend hurt, it was good information for me to have, socially.  I feel like I have struck a balance between being able to say something about everything and finding a way to be compatible with others.  It's important to me to have my voice heard, but to also consider other's feelings.  If I am using vocabulary that they can't understand, my message doesn't get across.  If that means that I have to find a different way to express myself, I like to think that I have the verbal dexterity to do that and still convey the message I want.

 

As far as my kids, really, if we are at home, the gifted label really doesn't do anything for us.  I know how to relate to my kids, and how to stimulate, encourage and deal with them.  But, at school, it's a different story.  I am faced with advocating for them to get an appropriate education.  The label is useful for that.  I have, however, received not a great response from the schools for this reason, and it is an ongoing process.  I really don't need them to like me.  But, I do need to see that my kids get the education they should.  I can't homeschool them, but I can sure advocate for them.

post #53 of 67
Thread Starter 
The again referred to a different thread.
post #54 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by anj_rn View Post

This is a fantastic topic.  So over the course of my life, I have discovered that there are many different definitions for giftedness.  Even schools can not agree on what constitutes giftedness, which is why there are a million programs and tests for it.  I break it into 3 categories, intellectual giftedness, academic giftedness, and artistic giftedness.

 

Artistic giftedness is the easiest to define, these are the people who are "naturals," you know it when you see/ear their work.  It transports you, and looks effortless.

 

Academic giftedness are children that perform above grade level in one or more areas.  You usually see it in either math/science or reading/writing.  These kids often are bored in early elementary, because they already know things.  However, they also might be "gifted" in Kinder because they came in reading, but "normal" by 3rd grade when everyone else has caught up.

 

Intellectual Giftedness - These are the kids with the high IQs (mensa level), they may or may not do well in school. These kids think differently.  They will learn everything they can about a subject if it interests them.  These kids are at high risk for academic failure if they are bored.  They typically do not work well with others who are not gifted, because they don't understand the way they think.  Some have difficulty picking up on social cues.

 

Now most schools either target academic or intellectual giftedness, and tailor their programs toward those students.  However, IME the 2 groups do not mesh well together.  For IG kids, learning comes easy, they do not need repetition and tend to hate to do things they do not find interesting.  They need a different approach - i.e. you have to write a research paper, these are the requirements, you pick a topic or you have to do a science experiment involving eggs, pick one or develop your own.  The goal is to get them into the process so you do not lose them when they become bored.

 

Now is it hard, well that depends.  My mom did not have a problem with me, but I had difficulties in academia.  My mom had to balance my intellectual needs with my social ones.  Now my DH and I have a different approach with our DS.  (DH and I are IG).  We have not tested him.  He does what he has to in school, and we supplement what he wants to learn at school.  My main goal for him is to fit in and learn to function in a social & academic environment.  Our district is geared to AG kids, and DS is too lazy about school work at this point.  I do not need the label, so we just do what we need to do outside of school, and when needed I contact the teacher to make a change or ask a question.  They have been very understanding.

Bolding mine, I don't usually post - I'm a not mama-yet lurker. But I have been to teacher's college. And want to add that testing giftedness before 3rd grade is known to be unreliable because of that exact reason.

post #55 of 67
Thread Starter 
A couple more questions.

In your opinion......

Are gifted people faster when doing things (walking, talking, etc)?

Are gifted people able to draw conclusions better?
post #56 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

A couple more questions.
In your opinion......
Are gifted people faster when doing things (walking, talking, etc)?
Are gifted people able to draw conclusions better?


No? Faster walking?  I have to assume this was tongue in cheek.

 

and no, but they may have accumulated more knowledge on which to base such conclusions.

 

Gifted people are people... and term gifted kinda sucks because honestly it's more of a curse than a blessing in my experience.  Look into Dabrowski's theory of positive disintegration.

post #57 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

A couple more questions.
In your opinion......
Are gifted people faster when doing things (walking, talking, etc)?
Are gifted people able to draw conclusions better?

No & no.

I am fast though. I don't know that it has anything to do with giftedness or lack thereof (well, beyond my speed at tests, work projects, etc. which has to do with how my brain processes things spatially...) Mostly I just have a lot of nervous energy so I tend to talk fast, walk fast, etc. out of anxiety.

Drawing conclusions -- no, I think this is a separate trait, and in fact drawing conclusions might even be a particularly hard ability for some gifted people -- not seeing the forest for the trees, perhaps.

ETA: I totally agree with Juvysen:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Juvysen View Post

Gifted people are people... and term gifted kinda sucks because honestly it's more of a curse than a blessing in my experience. Look into Dabrowski's theory of positive disintegration.
post #58 of 67

Background:  In gifted/pull out/AP classes all through grade/high school, without much work.  7th out of 260-something in my HS class.  Took some college courses in high school.  Took some graduate courses in my senior year of college and finished up a semester early.  I was approached by a local Mensa member and invited to test for the org, but declined.  I would not consider myself a genius, though.  I'm brighter in some ways, and not as bright in others (topics that don't interest me?)  Reading all this discussion made me have the second of two mindblowing revelations today.  I think that my academic "underachievement" was/is in part because my parents concentrated heavily on being a good person, relating to people well, being content, etc. such that my academics were just assumed to be "excellent", that they didn't focus on that part (they were proud and would embarrass me bragging to people, but it was never a topic of discussion or concern, whereas relationships with other human beings were discussed regularly).  Soooo....I'm glad that they "helped" me not be socially outcast or have to wrestle with those things through school because I had a very positive school experience, on one hand, but.....now as an adult, I have some issues I'm grappling with about having to get relationships "right".  Soo.....yay mom and dad?  lol.   

 

I think, though, I am grateful on most levels for it, because I don't have problems relating to most people in some way even if they're very different from me, I "filter" my words to the best approximation for my audience pretty easily, and can read people pretty well and pretty quickly to know how I can talk and relate with them in a way that's easy for them.  Then again, since that's what I was "programmed" in childhood to value, it makes sense that I'd be content with it.  Twisted!!!

 

I do SO get Tiger's post about wanting the "right" word, the most accurate one, etc.  I've had my husband call me on using "big words", but I don't think I do it a ton, really.  And I'm just as likely to use slang, etc. 

 

I have passed that trait "right word" thing on to my kids, poor things, because they are already at 8 and 6 killing me with the "actually, it's....." and technicalities, loopholes, and what I'm calling overspecific-fying (see?  slang!)  me.  It's my own fault, though.  And, for better or for worse I am following much the same track my parents did:  Letting their academics work themselves out, and making sure to work on how they relate to people...though now that I had that revelation maybe I'll dial that down a little and spare them some future angst.  o_O    My son was selected at the end of 2nd grade last year for gifted pullouts starting this fall in 3rd grade; we're not sure if we're keeping them in public school or going to pull them and homeschool.  My husband is bright as well, is diagnosed and being treated ADHD.   He can take apart and put back together anything, can repair anything with minimal research, and has an eerie ability to judge people's true character within minutes of meeting them.  I *hate* how right he is about people, because I'm a "benefit of the doubt" kind of gal (GO FIGURE).  Reading and math, academics, though?  Not as much.  He's a wiz at hands on and practical stuff, so whatever *that* intelligence is, he's gifted, for sure.  Our kids are both very bright, in different ways.  

 

Backtracking to the first mind blowing (for me) revelation today:  All my life I thought I was this easygoing, laid back person.  But as it turns out, it wasn't me that was easygoing....everything was just *easy for me* - school came easily, friends came easily, dance and music came easily....I wasn't a superstar at any of them, but I was nicely above average, and happy enough with my efforts and results.  So I was laid back because there wasn't much of a challenge in anything for me (but I also didn't resent it or necessarily want a huge challenge...how's that for classic slacker/crippled perfectionist?).  That is, until it started involving things like a husband and even moreso, kids.  Because them, I cannot control.  They are not me.  Me?  Oh, I can do me, NO problem.  But them?  Well, that's not as easy.  And all my perfectionist BS started coming out of the woodwork when things didn't come as easy as they used to.  The high needs daughter.  The son with anxiety coming out of his ears.  That's not easy for me, because it's not *me*.  

 

So, I coasted along in an above average but comfortable life, for 30+ years.  And now that I'm being challenged, it ain't so pretty.  Soooo, I'm working through it.  

 

I have several friends I believe are more academically/intellectually gifted than I am (hi Juvysen!)  I sometimes glaze over when reading articles these friends link on FB and seem to understand quickly.  Would I have been more intellectually/academically advanced if I had worked harder in HS?  Probably.  Do I regret not doing it?  Eh, not so much.  Is that probably because of what I was taught as a kid?  You betcha.  But...here I am, relatively content with my life overall (except for that anxiety/perfection thing ;) ), and not really regretting much.  So I'll take it.  Does that mean I'm not as bright and not 'get it' as much?  Maybe....But I'll still take it.  lol.  

 

I have no idea at this point how much of this relates to the actual discussion, and how much is me just writing down the revelations I had today for an audience.  shy.gif

post #59 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post


Am I understanding this correctly, that a single school had 40+ valedictorians? Or is that the county?
I realize I went to school in the dark ages, but 40+ students tied for first would never have happened.

 

Yes one school. Apparently they made the decision to give all the kids who had a 4.0+ the chance to be on stage. Maybe a new trend? Anyway, the point was, it was cool to be smart and make good grades in that school.

 

ETA: Seems to be a trend:

http://schoolsofthought.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/16/one-high-school-25-valedictorians/

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/27/education/27valedictorians.html?pagewanted=all

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/high-school-life/1100592-does-your-hs-have-multiple-valedictorians.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002336475_garfield15m.html


Edited by beanma - 8/27/12 at 8:01pm
post #60 of 67

The4ofUs, you sound a LOT like me. Enjoyed reading your story.

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