Selecting and scheduling vaccines - Page 3

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by japonica 

I'm starting on a S&D route, and I DO find it something to worry about. I also don't equate ingested aluminum with injected aluminum. Tomljenovic and Shaw have written about the pharmacokinetics of ingested vs. injected. Notably that only about 0.25% of dietary aluminum is absorbed into systemic circulation (Yokel et al 2008) but that aluminum from vaccines may be absorbed at a rate of 100% (Yokel et al 2001). They also examine the types of aluminum used in the various studies and look at how the different compounds (chloride, hydroxide, lactate) affect neurological outcomes.

I'm not a chemist. Or a neuroscientist. What I wish is that there was a good, solid, credible review of Tomljenovic and Shaw's work done (not just snipes via comments on pro-vax blogs) where someone can address (or refute) point by point the conclusions they have come to. That would help me evaluate whether or not there is inherent risk of permanent injury in injected aluminum hydroxide, not just the old advice (said by Offit as well) that I probably eat more aluminum in a day anyway, so don't worry about it. It does concern me and it affects my decision. 

Not to mention that an infant getting many vaccines (at 2 and 4 months) is not likely to be consuming packaged food or anything but breastmilk or formula.

[kathymuggle]

Japonica…have you read what Sears said on aluminum?

http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/vaccines/vaccine-faqs

[AmandaT]

That was a great read!

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Japonica…have you read what Sears said on aluminum?

http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/vaccines/vaccine-faqs

My DD was given HepB at under 6 lbs. at 36.5 weeks.  :(  I should have been more informed (or at least a little bit informed), but it's unforgivable that the doctor that I trusted thought it was ok.

[japonica]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Japonica…have you read what Sears said on aluminum?

http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/vaccines/vaccine-faqs

Yes, I have, quite a while ago. I remember that piece from The Vaccine Book. I wish he'd update it. Not so much because I value his insight (I'm more meh on Sears) but just to keep the discussion going. I hope that at the very least, he'd take a look at the material Tomljenovic and Shaw are publishing and put his two cents in. Offit went on record to say that their paper on adjuvants should never have been published. Not because of bad science apparently--it was peer reviewed and I guess if he feels the standards at Curr Med Chem are slipping then it's something he can take up with them. No, it's surmised he objected because the aluminum issue doesn't deserve investigation. 

Sears has mentioned, along with Shaw and others, that there are a significant number of unanswered questions on this particular topic. So, if, as many contend, that the aluminum adjuvants are completely inert and "safe," then I wish they would produce the specific, definitive, peer-reviewed, high-quality science that refutes all of the so-called negative associations between aluminum and neurotoxicity and/or autoimmunity and show us, indeed, that we parents are concerned for no reason whatsoever. I'm actually quite surprised this hasn't been done yet. They have the resources to undertake the work.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by Bokonon 

My DD was given HepB at under 6 lbs. at 36.5 weeks.  :(  I should have been more informed (or at least a little bit informed), but it's unforgivable that the doctor that I trusted thought it was ok.

And my DS#1 was given HepB at 4 1/2 pounds at 37 weeks (I had pre-eclampsia, hyperemesis, and he was IUGR).  He was very alert for the first 4 hours of his life, until they gave him the shot.  He didn't open his eyes for 5 days after the shot.

Our ped didn't even know about it, as it was the hospital nurses who gave the shot, not our ped.

With DS#2, the ped added a note to the chart that we would not be vaccinating in the hospital, and I told ALL the nurses and OBGYN's as well.

They gave him the HepB vax while I was in the shower, with neither my knowledge nor my permission.

They had me sign the consent form after the fact.  When I showed them the very clear note on the chart, they shrugged, said, "oops, sorry, but you still have to sign, because we already did it."

Edited by Taximom5 - 11/19/12 at 10:06am

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by japonica 

Sears has mentioned, along with Shaw and others, that there are a significant number of unanswered questions on this particular topic. So, if, as many contend, that the aluminum adjuvants are completely inert and "safe," then I wish they would produce the specific, definitive, peer-reviewed, high-quality science that refutes all of the so-called negative associations between aluminum and neurotoxicity and/or autoimmunity and show us, indeed, that we parents are concerned for no reason whatsoever. I'm actually quite surprised this hasn't been done yet. They have the resources to undertake the work.

They may contend that aluminum adjuvants are competely inert and "safe," but that doesn't make it so.

In fact, the more that they insist that it's fine, just fine, don't worry your pretty little head about it, you leave the worrying to to us DOCTORS--the more we notice the stench of something really rotten.

[prosciencemum]

You don't need to believe someone - you can look at the science about aluminium adjuvants (and consider the amount in vaccines too). Here are some notes/facts I've collected about aluminium to get you started. 

Aluminium salts are found vaccines to improve immune response, and allow less of the immune response making agent to be included in the vaccine.

Aluminium is the 3rd most abundant element on Earth's surface, and in everything around us. It's in many foods - and used as an additive (processed cheese, pancake mix for example). It's also in breast milk.

At age 6 months a fully vaccinated baby will have had - 4mg from vaccine, breast milk 10 mg (formula 30 mg, soy formula 100 mg). 

100% absorbed from vaccination, 1% from ingestion. Aluminum is eliminated (but not completely).

End of 1st year - aluminium accumulation from breast milk and vaccine is comparable (0.1 mg)

Aluminium is demonstrably dangerous - but only in people with kidneys not working well and in presence of big doses of aluminium. 

A Cochrane Systematic review in 2004 (this one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14871632) found no difference in the rates of children with neurological problems between those who had had a DTP vaccine with or without an aluminium adjuvant.

Most vaccines have less than 0.5 mg of aluminium adjuvant in them (there is a table here: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content-nw/full/112/6/1394/T3). The average adult ingests 1-10 mg of aluminium daily (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1490425). 

[Taximom5]

Prosciencemum, have you even bothered to read Dr. Sears' article on aluminum, linked above? He thoroughly debunks the points you have tried to make on the supposed safety of aluminum in vaccines.

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

Most vaccines have less than 0.5 mg of aluminum adjuvant in them.

But 0.5 mg of mercury is far higher than what is considered safe. According to the FDA, "Research indicates that patients with impaired kidney function, including premature neonates [babies], who received parenteral levels of aluminum at greater than 4 to 5 micrograms per kilogram of body weight per day, accumulate aluminum at levels associated with central nervous system and bone toxicity [for a tiny newborn, this toxic dose would be 10 to 20 micrograms, and for an adult it would be about 350 micrograms]. Tissue loading may occur at even lower rates of administration."

According to Dr. Sears, "Using the 5 mcg/kg/day criterion from the first document as a minimum amount we know a healthy baby could handle, a 12-pound 2-month-old baby could safely get at least 30 micrograms of aluminum in one day. A 22 pound one-year-old could get at least 50 micrograms safely. Babies with healthy kidneys could probably handle a lot more than this, but we at least know they could handle this amount. However, these documents don't tell us what the maximum safe dose would be for a health baby or child. And I can't find such information anywhere. This is probably why the A.S.P.E.N. group suggests, and the FDA requires, that all injectable solutions have the 25 mcg limit, since we at least know that is safe."

Hib (PedVaxHib brand only) - 225 micrograms per shot.
Hepatitis B - 250 micrograms.
DTaP - depending on the manufacturer, ranges from 170 to 625 micrograms.

Pneumococcus - 125 micrograms.
Hepatitis A - 250 micrograms.
HPV - 225 micrograms.
Pentacel (DTaP, HIB and Polio combo vaccine) - 330 micrograms.
Pediarix (DTaP, Hep B and Polio combo vaccine) - 850 micrograms.

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 



A Cochrane Systematic review in 2004 (this one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14871632) found no difference in the rates of children with neurological problems between those who had had a DTP vaccine with or without an aluminium adjuvant.

"This is especially surprising because the Cochrane group didn't actually study aluminum metabolism itself. They didn't test aluminum levels in kids after vaccination. They didn't explore whether or not the amount of aluminum in vaccines builds up in the brain or bone tissues. They just looked for evidence of visible symptoms of toxicity without even looking for internal aluminum effects. And they didn't even do their own research. They simply reviewed all available studies done by other people. Also, they only looked at one aluminum-containing vaccine instead of testing all four at once. The Cochrane group essentially closed the book on aluminum without ever really opening it."

[WildKingdom]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

Prosciencemum, have you even bothered to read Dr. Sears' article on aluminum, linked above? He thoroughly debunks the points you have tried to make on the supposed safety of aluminum in vaccines.
But 0.5 mg of mercury is far higher than what is considered safe. According to the FDA, "Research indicates that patients with impaired kidney function, including premature neonates [babies], who received parenteral levels of aluminum at greater than 4 to 5 micrograms per kilogram of body weight per day, accumulate aluminum at levels associated with central nervous system and bone toxicity [for a tiny newborn, this toxic dose would be 10 to 20 micrograms, and for an adult it would be about 350 micrograms]. Tissue loading may occur at even lower rates of administration."
According to Dr. Sears, "Using the 5 mcg/kg/day criterion from the first document as a minimum amount we know a healthy baby could handle, a 12-pound 2-month-old baby could safely get at least 30 micrograms of aluminum in one day. A 22 pound one-year-old could get at least 50 micrograms safely. Babies with healthy kidneys could probably handle a lot more than this, but we at least know they could handle this amount. However, these documents don't tell us what the maximum safe dose would be for a health baby or child. And I can't find such information anywhere. This is probably why the A.S.P.E.N. group suggests, and the FDA requires, that all injectable solutions have the 25 mcg limit, since we at least know that is safe."
Hib (PedVaxHib brand only) - 225 micrograms per shot.
Hepatitis B - 250 micrograms.
DTaP - depending on the manufacturer, ranges from 170 to 625 micrograms.
Pneumococcus - 125 micrograms.
Hepatitis A - 250 micrograms.
HPV - 225 micrograms.
Pentacel (DTaP, HIB and Polio combo vaccine) - 330 micrograms.
Pediarix (DTaP, Hep B and Polio combo vaccine) - 850 micrograms.
"This is especially surprising because the Cochrane group didn't actually study aluminum metabolism itself. They didn't test aluminum levels in kids after vaccination. They didn't explore whether or not the amount of aluminum in vaccines builds up in the brain or bone tissues. They just looked for evidence of visible symptoms of toxicity without even looking for internal aluminum effects. And they didn't even do their own research. They simply reviewed all available studies done by other people. Also, they only looked at one aluminum-containing vaccine instead of testing all four at once. The Cochrane group essentially closed the book on aluminum without ever really opening it."

Uh, that's what the Cochrane group DOES. They review existing studies. They don't do their own research. Why is that some sort of indictment of them?

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

Uh, that's what the Cochrane group DOES. They review existing studies. They don't do their own research. Why is that some sort of indictment of them?

Uh, because they "closed the book" on aluminum by declaring, "Despite a lack of good-quality evidence we do not recommend that any further research on this topic is undertaken."  The existing studies were woefully inadequate, and they said so.  So to base a conclusion (not recommending any further research on aluminum in vaccines) on admittedly inadequate research is equally inadequate.

Hopefully, as more and more studies ARE showing serious problems linked with aluminum in vaccines, the Cochrane group will revisit this subject, and reverse their previous conclusion.

[phathui5]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

And my DS#1 was given HepB at 4 1/2 pounds at 37 weeks (I had pre-eclampsia, hyperemesis, and he was IUGR).  He was very alert for the first 4 hours of his life, until they gave him the shot.  He didn't open his eyes for 5 days after the shot.

Our ped didn't even know about it, as it was the hospital nurses who gave the shot, not our ped.

With DS#2, the ped added a note to the chart that we would not be vaccinating in the hospital, and I told ALL the nurses and OBGYN's as well.

They gave him the HepB vax while I was in the shower, without neither my knowledge nor my permission.

They had me sign the consent form after the fact.  When I showed them the very clear note on the chart, they shrugged, said, "oops, sorry, but you still have to sign, because we already did it."

Wow. You certainly didn't have to sign a form for a procedure they performed without your consent.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by phathui5 

Wow. You certainly didn't have to sign a form for a procedure they performed without your consent.

It was 4 hours after I gave birth, my husband had had to leave for work, and I had not slept in over 48 hours, so I wasn't exactly functioning at the top of my game.

But you are right, and, in retrospect, I certainly wish I hadn't signed.

[Chicharronita]

Reading about your hospital experiences makes me sad, Taximom5. 

[Taximom5]

Chicha, I think the saddest part is that my experiences are not unique--and that many have had far worse experiences than mine.

Something else sad is that, after posting some of my experiences here, I've received a pm making fun of me, and have seen members here go to another board to make fun of me.  That certainly adds to the difficulty.

[Chicharronita]

I wish I were surprised, but sadly I'd heard about other forums that mock MDC members. 

I'm sure there are a lot of vaccine reaction deniers who wish people like you would be quiet, but they underestimate the sincerity and dedication of parents of whose children are harmed by things that are supposed to be only beneficial.

This is why people like Jenny McCarthy can command a lot of public attention and sympathy, while seemingly paid vaccine promoters like Amanda Peet don't.

[Mosaic]

Hey gang, remember that this is in the Mindful Vaccination forum now, so comments should be support-only.