Help! The same MMR question again...ugh

[DKL]

Where to begin...My beautiful son just turned 4 and I am plagued (brought on by myself no less ) again with the question of whether to vax or not to vax. History to date is my son recv'd full vaxes until 2 months, then at the 4month visit I did IPV and HIB, and then at 5 months just the Dtap which I supplied myself as I read the Dtapacel - Sanofi-Pasteur was the one to go with. I then stopped all further vaxes. I took a mental break from the vaccine discussion in my head b/c quite honestly I was losing sleep over it and said to myself at age 4 (my son) I will start the research again thus the debate in my head! I feel weak and powerless and I dread the annual Pedi apt this Tuesday.

I have many questions but I don't want to annoy you all too much so my question is can we still split up the MMR as back in 2008 we could not as Merek was not profiting from the singles shots thus they were only putting out the full 3 vax shot. Is this still true today? If so do you feel at age 4 I should proceed with the shot(s)? Should I wait until 5 or 6? Should I think about another shot though I do not see any left that really jump out at me of any importance other then the fear it puts into my soul.

My motto that has gotten me through this far is "The risks out weigh the benefits" but again I said I would re-investigate this at age 4 which is why I am back here...THANK YOU in advance.

[kathymuggle]

According to the thread below, they are not available separately.

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1346389/measles-only-vaccine

I heard they are in parts of europe - any trips in your plans? 

Do you want help working though this issue - this is the non-vax forum, so you would get the non-vax POV.  If you are looking for more "both sides" discussion, you could try the sel/delayed.  The question would definitely fit in well there, but I find it a quiet forum.

Just let us know - I have no desire to try and talk you into not vaxxing if your mind is made up.

Edited by kathymuggle - 8/24/12 at 7:27am

[Marnica]

No you cannot split the MMR in this country. The monovalent measles vaccine is still not avaliable, and I would doubt if it were anytime soon.

In the interest of full disclosure, my children are not vaccinated and will likely remain that way. Measles doesn't scare me. Measles was to my parents generation what chicken pox was to mine. For the vast majority of healthy kids it was a nuisance illness. I am also into homeopathy and natural medicine and have educated myself on how to treat measles naturally to minimize the already small chance of complications.

Whether or not you choose to do any more vacines for your 4 yr old is really about whether or not you feel the benefits outweigh the risks for your child. If you keep coming to the conclusion that no in fact the risks outweigh the benfits - you've answered your own question!

I constantly reevaluate my choices to not vaccinate - thats good you should do that every now and then.

[DKL]

Thank you both! Kathy I am looking for help and enlightment and I posted on this section as opposed to the delayed vax section as I feel in my heart my mind is already made up to not continue to vax. Marnica I agree about measles being a lower level threat with a much less bad effect if contracted similar to CP.

I just get the question or comment from folks "oh, so if your son goes deaf or sterile you do not care"! I hate those and I guess I feel unprepared to debate back.

I am in Ireland once a year so I guess if I really wanted to split them up I could look into that route.
 

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by DKL 

I just get the question or comment from folks "oh, so if your son goes deaf or sterile you do not care"! I hate those and I guess I feel unprepared to debate back.

Do they say that to your face?  Grrr….

It is a very manipulative statement designed to induce guilt and is emotional blackmail.

If you feel like replying I can think of several quips:

"Well, seeing as you chose not to breastfeed and smoke in the house with your kids, maybe we should talk about your health choices!  Or…we could both agree not to throw stones."

"i have done the math, and the chance of my child getting measles and having a bad reaction is less than the risks of a vaccine reaction.  Check out the CDC for info on current measles rates, and vax reactions statistics."

"Are you really trying to tell me I do not care about my own son?  Wow.  Your insensitivity is breath-taking - to bad they do not have a vaccine for that!"

Even if you choose not to say the above, you can think it and tell yourself it!

If the comments are online, I would just ignore them. Stay off contentious sites if they upset you.  You want any decision you make to come from a rational place, not fear or guilt induced.  There are lots of reason people get b*tchy online - and little of it has to do with you.  

Edited by kathymuggle - 8/24/12 at 7:45pm

[DKL]

I agree Kathy and thank you again. Sadly it was from my neighbor who is my very good friend but we have two very different view points on vaxes, meds, treatments...I do all natural holistic where she does bottles of antibiotics and flu shots every year. I keep my mouth shut from now on and actually wish I had never brought up my choice to not vax to anyone even family. My mother who is a RN keeps sending me articles about current outbreaks (of course right now the TX outbreaks and whooping cough).
 

[Taximom5]

Just raising the question here: measles is not usually dangerous to a healthy child--but isn't measles more dangerous to a previously uninfected adult?  

Merck lists some fairly serious side effects for the MMR in girls and women past puberty, including a very high percentage of arthritis/arthralgia.  

So we're damned if we do give a child the MMR (if the child reacts, as it seems many do--certainly more than we are led to believe), and damned if we don't (if the unvaxed adult gets measles as an adult, which is said to be far more serious).  We're also damned if we give a young woman an MMR, as there are more serious side effects, there, too.

And I don't know what idiot decided that up to 26% of women having arthritis and arthraliga is an acceptable side effect of the MMR.

From http://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/archives/fdaDrugInfo.cfm?archiveid=26302

"Arthralgia and/or arthritis (usually transient and rarely chronic), and polyneuritis are features of infection with wild-type rubella and vary in frequency and severity with age and sex, being greatest in adult females and least in prepubertal children. This type of involvement as well as myalgia and paresthesia, have also been reported following administration of MERUVAX II."

"In women, incidence rates for arthritis and arthralgia are generally higher than those seen in children (children: 0-3%; women: 12-26%),{17,52,53} and the reactions tend to be more marked and of longer duration. Symptoms may persist for a matter of months or on rare occasions for years. In adolescent girls, the reactions appear to be intermediate in incidence between those seen in children and in adult women. Even in women older than 35 years, these reactions are generally well tolerated and rarely interfere with normal activities."

I could have sworn that that last paragraph used to say "reactions are generally well tolerated with medication..."

 

 

[DKL]

All good points and some horrific stats Taximom5! But wondering what the lifespan is for the MMR and even if you are vaccinated as a child does it provide lifetime immunity or expire like other vaxes?
 

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by DKL 

All good points and some horrific stats Taximom5! But wondering what the lifespan is for the MMR and even if you are vaccinated as a child does it provide lifetime immunity or expire like other vaxes?
 

 The reality is they just don't know. Back in the day they said 1 was all that was needed. Now we know that is not true. Adults are not rountinely getting their titres checked. I believe they check rubella titres on pregnant women fairly routinely, but thats all. That along with what we now know about the mumps portion of the vaccine not being nearly as effective as we have been led to believe, I would not necessarily trust that getting the MMR will give lifelong immunity to any of the 3 diseases.  As for

As for your neighbor and friend - if she was that good of a friend she would have never said something like that to you, but rather would have enaged in a calm rational discussion. Sometimes issues like these show you who your friends really are.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by Marnica 

As for your neighbor and friend - if she was that good of a friend she would have never said something like that to you, but rather would have enaged in a calm rational discussion. Sometimes issues like these show you who your friends really are.

maybe?

We all say insensitive stuff from time to time.  I think vax issues can really bring out the worst in people.  

If the op feels so inclined she can gently point out the insensitivity and see whether or not her friend apologises.

I would not ditch a friend over one insensitive remark - I would over lack of remorse or patterns of insensitivity.  My 

[serenbat]

 But wondering what the lifespan is for the MMR and even if you are vaccinated as a child does it provide lifetime immunity or expire like other vaxes?

this depends on WHO you are! I had one shot over 40 years ago and a recent titer showed full immunity- I have known younger moms that have had three shots and still do not show immunity, I know others that have had titers done (nursing medical students) that some have had one, some three and it's all different..... so is it the titer testing that's off? is it the vac or is it the person?

[MountainMamaGC]

Yep, I am over 30 now, and still immune despite being on all kinds of immune suppressing therapy. I still have CP immunity too, albeit from wild CP.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

maybe?

We all say insensitive stuff from time to time.  I think vax issues can really bring out the worst in people.  

If the op feels so inclined she can gently point out the insensitivity and see whether or not her friend apologises.

I would not ditch a friend over one insensitive remark - I would over lack of remorse or patterns of insensitivity.  My 

agreed - I wouldn't ditch her either after just 1 remark. I just have very little tolerance for comments like this. I would definitely address it with a friend however. In fact I think HOW the friend responds when addressed would be far more tellig than that 1 remark.

[ssun5]

I guess again it comes down to how you see things like this.

All of my kids came down with measles this summer. They took lots of minerals, Sodium Ascorbate and I watched then. They are healthy and I thought it was easier than Chicken Pox.

My husband and I both were vaxed 1X with MMR as children and we both ended up getting a mild case of it as well. ( I just had titers done not that long ago that showed that I was "immune" but it still didn't stop me from contracting it so I do question the validity of those tests) Anyhow, We did the same as the kids and it was no harder than a slight cold for a couple days.

Have you ever looked up the almost impossibility of Measles Mumps or Rubella causing sterility or death?

Since my experience all started from the kids in the nursery shedding their Vax, It got me thinking. What if we all have been exposed to the 3 MMR a little just going about our normal lives?

What if it was so minor that we might have mistaken it for a cold since there are so many little ones shedding?

I am not vaxing so they will be so healthy with a fully functioning immune system so that they can fight off things like VPD or ANY of the other disease that are in this world without a vax.

I am going to give my kids the GREATEST chance of not having an auto immune problem, or many of the other gazillion health issues that can be triggered (or possibly brought on directly) by Vaccination. It isn't the only consideration (we eat and try to stay away from any other source we can as well) but it IS A HUGE consideration. It is like playing Russian roulette and I am sorry... I am not up for my kids being part of that.

The risks of Vaxing are way to high for my family. The risk of not vaxing.?.. that they might get measles as a very healthy child -fully able to fight it off and have life long immunity? From my point of view that is the more logical conclusion.

DS-12

DD-7

DD-1

[kathymuggle]

To be honest, I do have some concern around measles. 

The death rate is 1-2 per 1000, and that is higher than I can accept.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/meas.pdf

I suspect the death rate is lower, as many cases of measles probably go unreported, but still.

I am non-vax, but measles is a disease that has given me more pause than others.  It is very contagious and, as noted above, the risks are higher than I like.

There are an average of 60 measles cases a year in the USA.  Like all disease, it has its peaks and valleys.   

I do not worry about mumps and rubella at all.  They are so mild in most children (rubella particularly).  If adults are worried about congenital rubella and deafness or sterility from mumps - they can get the vaccine.  There is no need to ask children to carry the burden of vaccine risks for these diseases.

Edited by kathymuggle - 8/24/12 at 7:49pm

[pers]

Originally Posted by ssun5 

I guess again it comes down to how you see things like this.

All of my kids came down with measles this summer. They took lots of minerals, Sodium Ascorbate and I watched then. They are healthy and I thought it was easier than Chicken Pox.

My husband and I both were vaxed 1X with MMR as children and we both ended up getting a mild case of it as well. ( I just had titers done not that long ago that showed that I was "immune" but it still didn't stop me from contracting it so I do question the validity of those tests) Anyhow, We did the same as the kids and it was no harder than a slight cold for a couple days.

Have you ever looked up the almost impossibility of Measles Mumps or Rubella causing sterility or death?

Since my experience all started from the kids in the nursery shedding their Vax, It got me thinking. What if we all have been exposed to the 3 MMR a little just going about our normal lives?

What if it was so minor that we might have mistaken it for a cold since there are so many little ones shedding?

I am not vaxing so they will be so healthy with a fully functioning immune system so that they can fight off things like VPD or ANY of the other disease that are in this world without a vax.

Vaccine strain measles would be expected to be a lot milder since it is an attenuated virus.  However, while virus has been found in urine and swabs from recently vaccinated children and so in theory could be passed to someone else, there are no documented cases of this happening.  

Do you actually have blood tests showing that it was vaccine strain rather than wild?  There were a few cases of wild measles in Texas in April.. if it was early summer, could it have spread from that small outbreak to you?

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by pers 

 However, while virus has been found in urine and swabs from recently vaccinated children and so in theory could be passed to someone else, there are no documented cases of this happening.  

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17520544
"Persons who receive live attenuated vaccine may occasionally transmit the vaccine strain to others."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866412/
"Although the risk for secondary transmission of the vOka strain from immunocompromised vaccinees to susceptible persons is relatively high, the risk for transmission from immunocompetent vaccinees is low (1). We report secondary transmission of the vOka strain from an immunocompetent girl with a history of varicella vaccination to her healthy susceptible brother.

Herpes zoster developed in a healthy 3-year-old girl 2 years after she had received the varicella vaccine (lot VZ040; Biken, Osaka, Japan). She received oral acyclovir treatment and fully recovered by day 19 after herpes zoster onset. On the same day that the girl recovered, her immunocompetent 2-year-old brother was found to have fever and a rash consisting of 10–20 papulovesicles; mild varicella was diagnosed."
So in this case, the 3- year old who was vaccinated for chicken pox developed shingles 2 years later AND transmitted the virus to her brother and who knows how many others.


http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198703263161303
Measles Outbreak in a Fully Immunized Secondary-School Population

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/02/24/secondary-transmission-%EF%BB%BFthe-short-and-sweet-about-live-virus-vaccine-shedding/

"Transmission of a vaccine virus from a FluMist recipient to a contact was documented in a pre-licensing trial. The contact had a mild symptomatic Type B virus infection confirmed as a FluMist vaccine virus. (8)"

RotaTeq: "The latest shedding that we saw was 15 days from dose one.
We had no subjects that shed after dose two, and only one subject shed after dose three. He shed four days from dose three."

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/17/4/10-1316_article.htm
Secondary and Tertiary Transmission of Vaccinia Virus from US Military Service Member

It's easy to say "there are no documented cases" when those in charge of publicizing the information either refuse to document the cases or refuse to acknowledge the cases that have occurred.

Hannah Poling, Bailey Banks, and 2000 cases of admitted and compensated vaccine-induced severe brain damage (including autism) also come to mind.

[ssun5]

Hi Pers,

My kids didn't get it in an area where the "outbreak" was... it was July. 

I called and talked to my MD, sent him pic's via phone as he told me he would rather we stay home if it was to not go out and about... and by sight and symtoms he verified that his personal opoinion was yes it was measles. He is old (in his 70's) and remembers treating it a ton during his younger years. That was all I had to go on at first but then

The woman who had her girl vaxed... posted something at church for all the babies in the room as she came down with shingles after her vax and then later they said she also had measles from her vax as well. (which she got both MMR and CP vax at same time apparently) I guess that since the mom put her girl in the hospital... I will take their word for it. (wow, that poor girl and all the stuff they put her through, yikes!)

The doctors ended up sending someone to the nursery, asked if anyone who had contracted it from the nursery to fill out this form, come in and see them etc with lots of lovely fear mongering about it.... but my DH and I refused.

Oh, and there ARE documented cases as Taxi just posted. ((THANK YOU!))

I admit that I don't "know" for sure... but what else could it be from? Wild measles AND a vax case at the same time? That just doesn't seem logical to me.
 

[pers]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17520544
"Persons who receive live attenuated vaccine may occasionally transmit the vaccine strain to others."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2866412/
"Although the risk for secondary transmission of the vOka strain from immunocompromised vaccinees to susceptible persons is relatively high, the risk for transmission from immunocompetent vaccinees is low (1). We report secondary transmission of the vOka strain from an immunocompetent girl with a history of varicella vaccination to her healthy susceptible brother.
Herpes zoster developed in a healthy 3-year-old girl 2 years after she had received the varicella vaccine (lot VZ040; Biken, Osaka, Japan). She received oral acyclovir treatment and fully recovered by day 19 after herpes zoster onset. On the same day that the girl recovered, her immunocompetent 2-year-old brother was found to have fever and a rash consisting of 10–20 papulovesicles; mild varicella was diagnosed."
So in this case, the 3- year old who was vaccinated for chicken pox developed shingles 2 years later AND transmitted the virus to her brother and who knows how many others.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198703263161303
Measles Outbreak in a Fully Immunized Secondary-School Population
http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/2008/02/24/secondary-transmission-%EF%BB%BFthe-short-and-sweet-about-live-virus-vaccine-shedding/
"Transmission of a vaccine virus from a FluMist recipient to a contact was documented in a pre-licensing trial. The contact had a mild symptomatic Type B virus infection confirmed as a FluMist vaccine virus. (8)"
RotaTeq: "The latest shedding that we saw was 15 days from dose one.
We had no subjects that shed after dose two, and only one subject shed after dose three. He shed four days from dose three."
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/17/4/10-1316_article.htm
Secondary and Tertiary Transmission of Vaccinia Virus from US Military Service Member
It's easy to say "there are no documented cases" when those in charge of publicizing the information either refuse to document the cases or refuse to acknowledge the cases that have occurred.
Hannah Poling, Bailey Banks, and 2000 cases of admitted and compensated vaccine-induced severe brain damage (including autism) also come to mind.

Measles.  There are no documented cases of vaccine strain measles spreading from a recently vaccinated child.  Yes, vaccinia, FluMist, and the chickenpox vaccine certainly can be passed on (with varying degrees of risk of that happening), and I believe Rotateq too.  I was wondering if the poster I was responding too actually could be the first documented case if she knew for sure that she had vaccine strain, or if she was jumping to conclusions that it must be from a shedding child since she didn't know where she had been exposed.  

The Inside Vaccines link you posted is actually where I originally learned about that:

Quote:

Measles Vaccine - Although secondary transmission of the vaccine virus has never been documented, measles virus RNA has been detected in the urine of the vaccinees as early as 1 day or as late as 14 days after vaccination. (1)

In France, measles virus was isolated in a throat swab of a recently vaccinated child 4 days after fever onset. The virus was then further genetically characterised as a vaccine-type virus. (2)

You do have one example dealing with measles, but it is from well before measles was declared eradicated, and it appears to be an outbreak of the wild strain, not attenuated vaccine from shedding children.  

[edited to remove support of herd immunity]

Edited by pers - 10/9/12 at 9:30am

[pers]

Originally Posted by ssun5 

Hi Pers,

My kids didn't get it in an area where the "outbreak" was... it was July. 

I called and talked to my MD, sent him pic's via phone as he told me he would rather we stay home if it was to not go out and about... and by sight and symtoms he verified that his personal opoinion was yes it was measles. He is old (in his 70's) and remembers treating it a ton during his younger years. That was all I had to go on at first but then

The woman who had her girl vaxed... posted something at church for all the babies in the room as she came down with shingles after her vax and then later they said she also had measles from her vax as well. (which she got both MMR and CP vax at same time apparently) I guess that since the mom put her girl in the hospital... I will take their word for it. (wow, that poor girl and all the stuff they put her through, yikes!)

The doctors ended up sending someone to the nursery, asked if anyone who had contracted it from the nursery to fill out this form, come in and see them etc with lots of lovely fear mongering about it.... but my DH and I refused.

Oh, and there ARE documented cases as Taxi just posted. ((THANK YOU!))

I admit that I don't "know" for sure... but what else could it be from? Wild measles AND a vax case at the same time? That just doesn't seem logical to me.
 

Ah, well since it could happen theoretically, it certainly could happen to you.  All the same, it may be worthwhile having your kids titres tested before assuming for sure that they are now immune to measles and not roseola or something that is easy to mistake for measles from just a photo of the rash.  Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure the only way to know the strain of the measles is to test for it during the infection, titres will just show that there has been measles exposure, but will not reveal whether it was from a vaccinated child or from a chance exposure to a recent traveller or something in a grocery store or something who never saw a doctor for it/had their case reported.