Help! The same MMR question again...ugh - Page 2

[Cynthia Mosher]

As this discussion seems to be steering toward something that does not fit into the purpose of the I'm Not Vaccinating forum I'm reminding everyone of our current guidelines. 

Posting about herd immunity is not really suited for this forum nor is a discussion of how vaccine strain measles is milder, how outbreaks in vaccinated populations is rare, and other discussions that are intended to present a more pro-vaccine argument. Posting long these lines is acceptable for the general Vaccinations forum and should be taken there.

Quote:

Forum Purpose

This forum was created to serve the needs of members who have made the decision not to vaccinate or are seriously exploring making this decision. It is not a place to denigrate or criticize those who do vaccinate.

General Guidelines

Posting to this forum will not be restricted only to members who do not vaccinate. However, we will actively restrict conversations in favor of mandatory vaccination or other topics that would be inappropriate for the forum. This is not a place for debate or discussions on the merits of vaccines or the dangers of not vaccinating, it is also not a place to argue against vaccines or selective and delayed vaccination schedules. Such discussions are already hosted in the main Vaccinations forum and posts in that vein are most welcome and appropriate there. Please respect this and post at all times with this in mind. Should you have any questions about the appropriateness of your post for this forum feel free to PM the forum moderator.

We Will Host Discussions on

• school and daycare waivers
• handling doctors appointments
• schools and daycare issues
• talking to family members
• current research

 Any questions about any of this can be sent to me by PM for further clarification. 

[Louisw]

Originally Posted by DKL 

All good points and some horrific stats Taximom5! But wondering what the lifespan is for the MMR and even if you are vaccinated as a child does it provide lifetime immunity or expire like other vaxes?
 

Adults who have had a "measles vaccine" as a child sometimes get the wild measles for the first time as adults where it is 20 times more likely to result in serious complications.

“We also cannot ignore the impact of vaccines on changing epidemiology when considering their risks and benefits.  For instance, measles may have been made a more serious disease because of measles vaccination.  Prior to widespread vaccination, once a population had been exposed to measles, few adults or infants contracted it, adults due to lifelong immunity and infants due to maternal antibodies.  (For more, read this Scandals) Now, adults AND infants are getting the measles, with serious consequences.  I would like to include reference to a recent Washington Post article entitled: Measles Still Menace to Infants: Vaccinated Moms Pass Less Immunity to Babies’.  In this article it was noted that although in 1976 3% of measles cases occurred in children less than one, today more than 25% do.”     Sandy Mintz 

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1361594/measles-in-the-vaccination-age-is-it-now-deadlier

"Dr. Wakefield NEVER said vaccines cause autism. Dr. Wakefield is a gastroenterologist. He saw a number of children with gastrointestinal problems who also happened to be diagnosed with autism. Dr. Wakefield reported his observations. He never claimed that the MMR “caused” autism. He merely reported that a number of children he had seen had BOTH gastrointestinal problems AND autism, and according to parental report, these issues developed within a short time of when the children received the MMR vaccine. Again… Why is Dr. Wakefield such a threat to the pharmaceutical industry?"   http://vaxtruth.org/2011/08/vaccines-do-not-cause-autism/

Edited by Louisw - 8/27/12 at 11:36am

[solstices]

Good luck on continuing your research.  It seems you already know in your heart what will be the best choice for your family.  As for you deciding to keep your childrens' vaccine status to yourself, that is a very wise decision.  I learned the hard way that it is easier to just keep it between you and your significant other.  Heaven forbid something were to happen as a result of you vaccinating it would be your problem only.  Just as if you decide not to vaccinate further and your kiddo were to contract, say the measles, that would also be your responsibility to take care of. No one needs to know your business.  If you want to discuss the issue with like minded mommies then this is one good place to start. The only time I divulge with anyone I know is if someone is truly interested in learning about the other side and is considering the non-vaxx end of things for their kiddies.  Then I have a plethora of info to share, but still keep pretty mum on what I do (or rather, wont do) to my babies. 

[rdehoff-us]

I have a friend who received the measles vaccine as a child and developed wild measles as a teenager years later, but only had a rather mild go of it.  While he didn't have any complications; nevertheless, he still contracted the very illness a test showed he was immune for.  I can't speak for everyone, but I personally do not consider measles, mumps, or rubella to be a significant threat to my toddler's well-being when weighing against the potential risks of the vaccine itself.  Not to say I don't frequently second guess myself, because I do.  But I too will most likely revisit the issue later on when he is a little older.

[ssun5]

To the OP, I was just trying to give my point of view as someone who's entire family just had measles this summer, to give credence to the fact that they are not NORMALLY scary. But then, that Is what I found when I looked at most disease that others vax for now. The risk of vaxing still doesn't outweigh the benefit (if any at all). I feel like the commercial...

What do I believe I get for my kids by not vaxing: A healthy immune system... Priceless!

What Marnica said:

In the interest of full disclosure, my children are not vaccinated and will likely remain that way. Measles doesn't scare me. Measles was to my parents generation what chicken pox was to mine. For the vast majority of healthy kids it was a nuisance illness. I am also into homeopathy and natural medicine and have educated myself on how to treat measles naturally to minimize the already small chance of complications.

Whether or not you choose to do any more vacines for your 4 yr old is really about whether or not you feel the benefits outweigh the risks for your child. If you keep coming to the conclusion that no in fact the risks outweigh the benfits - you've answered your own question!

I constantly reevaluate my choices to not vaccinate - thats good you should do that every now and then.

I really concure that the more I study, the more I have been through with regards to our normal wonderful health, fighting off CP and Measles all in one summer through natural methods, seeing first hand the beauty of that healthy immune system doing what it is suppose to do... the more solid I become with my decisions.

I wish you the same!

[Louisw]

Originally Posted by ssun5 

What do I believe I get for my kids by not vaxing: A healthy immune system... Priceless!

IMO this is the KEY to the whole "vaccination" issue.

As we have seen, in the natural world, with most pathogens such as the measles virus, most kids contract the virus, defeat the virus and acquire lifetime immunity to the measles virus and do not even know all this occurred. Their immune system DID IT ALL.

If we as a society forgot all about "vaccination" and concentrated on the immune systems of the members of society our society as well as the members of our society would be VASTLY better off.

"Vaccination" is weakening the immune systems of all those "vaccinated".

[CA Country Girl]

My husband and I, all of our siblings, and I and my older DD (we'll have to see about the baby), all thoughtfully but fairly thoroughly vaccinated (never do the flu shot-skip a few others) have iron immune systems.  As long as we get enough rest, eat healthy, and take our vitamins we are rarely sick and heal quickly, even those of us in professions with high exposure to other people's germs.  I believe immune systems are probably more often thanks to genes and lifestyle rather than vaccination status.  I know this is the "I'm not vaccinating forum" but it seems that strongly anti-vax opinions are welcome in all the other Vaccination forums, so I would hope "selective vaccinator" opinions are here too.

[ssun5]

My husband and I, all of our siblings, and I and my older DD (we'll have to see about the baby), all thoughtfully but fairly thoroughly vaccinated (never do the flu shot-skip a few others) have iron immune systems.  As long as we get enough rest, eat healthy, and take our vitamins we are rarely sick and heal quickly, even those of us in professions with high exposure to other people's germs.  I believe immune systems are probably more often thanks to genes and lifestyle rather than vaccination status.  I know this is the "I'm not vaccinating forum" but it seems that strongly anti-vax opinions are welcome in all the other Vaccination forums, so I would hope "selective vaccinator" opinions are here too.
 

I know that genes can play a huge part in health...yes of course. But what about the one size fits all vax schedule. I believe that vaxes mess with our natural immune system (and then depending on a HOST of factors, genes, environmental, vitamin deficiency status etc) all play a role in how quickly we might recover from them if we are able to at all.

Again, I think it is a Russian roulette of some sort.... look up on here (mothering) the story about the women who had her baby placenta tested BEFORE she vaxed to make sure their were no contradictions, only to end up with an autistic girl who's entire blood system and mitochondria had changed. If that isn't "gene" testing, I don't know what is.

If it was ONLY genes and lifestyle that effected us, I think the rates of ezema, auto immune disease, autism, ms, childhood diabetes, and the long, Long list of other problems we are facing today that has NEVER been faced at this rate before the vax schedule became so large would be VERY different.  It would mean that over time, as a race of humans, we are as a whole getting sicker and sicker and our genes are totally falling to pieces. Dig for yourself. If you leave autism out of it (because of all the emotion), just look up every other kind of crazy disease problem we are facing today and if you chart it, can see how it is growing at alarming rates compared to our past.

That just can Not ALL be genes and lifestyle. (the poor in 1900 did not eat better than us today with the amazing sanitation etc we enjoy-women had numerous babies till menopause etc)

Children Today have the highest level of development delays in THE HISTORY of mankind. Developmental delays

In America; 43 percent of children have chronic ill-health : HERE

Development disorders effect 1 in 6 children: HERE

This study showed that 16.8% of children younger than 18 years of age have lifelong conditions arising in early childhood as a result of cognitive or physical impairment or a combination of the two.

For the reasons above, I believe that the current obsession to vaccinate pregnant women, babies - earlier and earlier, and adolescents and adults with as many vaccines as possible - will result in:

... the most immunologically damaged population the world has ever seen.

I will take my risk of contracting some vpd over this any day. I still think it the less risky choice.

DS-12

DD-7

DD-1

[Louisw]

Originally Posted by ssun5 

For the reasons above, I believe that the current obsession to vaccinate pregnant women, babies - earlier and earlier, and adolescents and adults with as many vaccines as possible - will result in:

... the most immunologically damaged population the world has ever seen.

I will take my risk of contracting some vpd over this any day. I still think it the less risky choice.

IMO you can make a good case all this "vaccination" HAS resulted in the most immunosuppressed, immunocompromised and "vaccine" damaged population of kids and young adults this country has ever seen. The autism rate is only a MARKER for all the "vaccine" damage that often goes unseen.

[pers]

Originally Posted by Cynthia Mosher 

Posting about herd immunity is not really suited for this forum nor is a discussion of how vaccine strain measles is milder, how outbreaks in vaccinated populations is rare, and other discussions that are intended to present a more pro-vaccine argument. Posting long these lines is acceptable for the general Vaccinations forum and should be taken there.

My apologies for the herd immunity comment.  It's my first thought when I see a reference to those particular examples, but I shouldn't have posted it in this section.  I will delete. 

The attenuated virus in the measles vaccine is weaker than the wild virus, but that in itself is not a pro-vax argument.  Some of the primary concerns I have seen about the measles vax here would make that actually an anti-vax argument.  Firstly, the concern that because the attenuated virus is weaker and thus the antibody response to it is also weaker, immunity from the vaccine may not be lifelong and we could face epidemics in adults (who typically have a far harder time with measles infection than kids) as vaccine immunity eventually begins to wane for them.  Secondly that a benefit of natural measles infection is that a mother who has had measles as a child will pass antibodies on to her infant that will protect him/her from measles during the first few months of life when the child is most vulnerable.  While children born to vaccinated mothers also receive some protection from maternal antibodies (thus why they still can't be vaccinated until age 1 or so, because even if maternal antibodies have reached levels low enough to not protect against wild disease many months before that, there still may be enough to interfere with the vax before about then), it does not last as long as the protection from mothers who had wild virus, leaving the child at risk earlier.  

These are good reasons why someone who has these concerns about the measles vax and suspects they or their children may have been infected with the attenuated virus from shedding child may want to pursue the possibility of testing to find out for sure if it is indeed the weaker attenuated virus, the stronger wild measles virus, or something else altogether.  

[kathymuggle]

Ok, Pers….I am seriously impressed you pointed out non-vax arguments    Don't worry - I don't think you have converted.

This debate can go get so polarised, and I have seen people (I am sure I have been guilty on occasion) of being so wrapped up in argument that they are unwilling to look at the other side, even when it is glaringly obvious.  Sadly, I think arguing sometimes gets in the way of good debate/information.

[threenorns]

i've done the math and i refuse to subject my youngest daughter to the vaccine-related statistics.

the death stats they quote - i noticed they frequently reference deaths from major outbreaks - but seriously: when was the last one?  back in the 60s, something like?  i'm kind of sure the technology for patient treatment and care has improved just a scootch since then.

i'd rather build my daughter's immune system as much as possible and risk the fraction of a percent that my daughter might die from a VPD than my certain knowledge from experience that vaccines DO cause asperger's (cause my oldest daughter had a massive reaction to vaccines and she has asperger's; can i prove the vaccine caused it?  no - but nobody can prove it didn't, either).

[Louisw]

Originally Posted by threenorns 

i've done the math and i refuse to subject my youngest daughter to the vaccine-related statistics.

the death stats they quote - i noticed they frequently reference deaths from major outbreaks - but seriously: when was the last one?  back in the 60s, something like?  i'm kind of sure the technology for patient treatment and care has improved just a scootch since then.

i'd rather build my daughter's immune system as much as possible and risk the fraction of a percent that my daughter might die from a VPD than my certain knowledge from experience that vaccines DO cause asperger's (cause my oldest daughter had a massive reaction to vaccines and she has asperger's; can i prove the vaccine caused it?  no - but nobody can prove it didn't, either).

For decades the CDC has told us the seasonal flu killed 36,000 per year. They got this outrageous figure by counting about half to those who died of pneumonia.

Here are some honest figures from the UK which for some reason is not lying about flu deaths.

Deaths Due to Respiratory Causes in the UK, 2009 Cause of Death	Total Deaths	% of Total
Pneumonia	28,152	40.8
Chronic Lower Respiratory Disease (mainly bronchitis)	25,688	37.2
Other	15,103	21.9
Influenza	31	0.04
Total	68,974	100

Source: UK Office of National Statistics

Lies Damned Lies And Swine Flu Statistics

Folks here is the "Flu Threat" we have been propagandized into fearing. Four one hundredths of one percent of the respiratory deaths in the UK. Thirty one total deaths in a country of 62 MILLION! I can assure you the USA threat is similar. Please face the facts folks this lie has a REASON. They want to get that needle into your arm. WHY?

[Louisw]

Originally Posted by pers 

The attenuated virus in the measles vaccine is weaker than the wild virus, but that in itself is not a pro-vax argument.  .  

Yes but is the "attenuated measles virus" too weak to provide a continuing source of infection in some immunocompromised kids? Doctor Wakefield, since confirmed DOZENS of times, shows that the vast majority of autistic kids have this "attenuated measles virus" in their guts. The "attenuated measles virus" had been living in these kids guts FOR MANY YEARS.

"Sometimes as in the case of autistic children their weakened immune systems cannot handle "inactivated" live virus and can't fight it off. So the live virus hangs around in their body creating inflammation on a low- grade level - both in the gut and the brain." Doctor Mark Hyman MD

The theory of "attenuated viruses" is that EVERYONE will be able to defeat this "weak virus" and remove it from their bodies.

Clearly many autistic kids CANNOT defeat the "attenuated measles virus".

"This is the second independent study to back up Dr Wakefield. In 2001 John O'Leary, Professor of Pathology at St James's Hospital and Trinity College, Dublin, replicated his findings. This new study confirms what we found in British children and again with Professor O'Leary. The only exposure these children have had to measles is through the MMR vaccine.  'They were developing normally until they regressed. They now suffer autism and bowel disease."    The Great MMR Deadly Scam

John O’Leary, Ph.D, a world-class researcher and molecular biologist from Ireland, using state of the art sequencing technology, showed how he had found measles virus in the gut of 96% of autistic children, compared to 6.6% of normal children. This virus did not come from the natural disease; it came from the measles vaccine.”

You do the math. The more you study this problem the sicker you will feel in the pit of your stomach. After a time this sickness will go away and you will get mad. Then you will grow determined to do something about it. Dissemination of the truth is the ONLY way IMO. Keep studying, speak up!

Edited by Louisw - 10/9/12 at 1:00pm

[Louisw]

Children Today have the highest level of development delays in THE HISTORY of mankind. Developmental delays

In America; 43 percent of children have chronic ill-health : HERE

Development disorders effect 1 in 6 children: HERE

This study showed that 16.8% of children younger than 18 years of age have lifelong conditions arising in early childhood as a result of cognitive or physical impairment or a combination of the two.

How can this be?

In the US we spend about twice as much on "health care", as the rest of the developed world. How can our childhood mortality rate be 39th in the world when we have peds with needles hovering over our kids night and day?

How can we be giving our kids so much "medical attention" and be getting these completely TERRIBLE deadly results.

Folks at some point you HAVE to ask if all this "medical attention" is not part of the problem. Like IMO MOST of it.