Confused about more kids. Thoughts anyone?

[blue elephant]

Hi everyone, I have never posted here before, but it seems like a good place to ask some questions! First I guess I will introduce myself. I am an Australian mama to two toddlers. DP gave birth to the first, and I to the second (our pregnancies overlapped a little). Apart from the (still lack of) sleep, it's been wonderful!

We got pregnant during a law change in our state, which unfortunately means we have to have any more children (with the same donor) in the not too distant future.

Before children we talked about 3-4, but this winter has been hard, with a LOT of colds etc, and a lot of missed sleep. DP no longer wants 4. I sometimes really do, and sometimes am happy with the idea of 3. Obviously the easy answer is, go for 3 and see how we go.

But it is a little bit complicated. DP is at the end-ish of her reproductive years, so if we want to use her eggs, we need to try next year (with me carrying, she hated birth). My kids have different skin colour, because she is white and I am black, and if we are only going to have 3, then another one of my eggs makes more sense to us.

It basically ends up with us having to decide if we want to try for  3 or 4 kids in the next 6 months.

I'm sure this is very confusing. It is to me. Sometimes I worry about placing this much importance on things like skin colour. And I recognise how lucky I am to even be able to contemplate this.

Any thoughts at all would be appreciated!

I feel quite sad when I think about not having four, but surly that would pass in time?

And DP has been so stressed by having two crap sleepers, but if I ask her how she would feel about it if they started sleeping well in the next two months, she says "fine!".

And if you don't have any thoughts- Hi anyway!

[NZmumof2]

Hi blue elephant,

I'm a Kiwi mum but have lived in South Australia for two years out of the last three.  I think you guys are incredibly brace to have had overlapping pregnancies.  Babies are hard and there is even less chance to get a break when there's a couple of them. We have 3-5 year age gaps and I like that, but it sounds like you guys won't be able to have such big ones - it helped that we started at 23... 

My partner and I have 3 kids and are expecting our fourth next April.  I'm carrying my partner's egg this time for a few reasons but she enjoyed pregnancy about as much as your partner.

I don't know how the law changes are working in your state but some thoughts I have would be - can you do an IVF round now and put some embryos with her eggs on ice - will the law let you store them for a while?  If you did store them do you think you could let them go if you did choose not to have a fourth later?

Our guys all have the same donor - it sounds like that is a deal breaker for you too?

NZ has had a law change too and we have to dispose of all stored sperm / embryos by the end of 2014 - but there is a loophole where you can argue about keeping them to an ethics committee - does that exist where you are?  We only have a couple of sperm vials left now and if all goes well with this pregnancy I will be OK about letting them go.

Good luck with your decision making!

Anna

[blue elephant]

Anna- thank you for your reply!

It actually really helped. Your idea about freezing some of her embryo's is a good one (and looking into the ethics committee) is a good one. I think because I had failed FETs before a successful fresh, I just don't trust them at all. But ultimately it's probably a better option than planning for 4 before we have even started trying for 3. And these things are so very unpredictable anyway!

How exciting that you are expecting your 4th! 3-5 year gaps sound great! (although there are some lovely things about having them so close, but it is hard!)

I'm hoping to post a bit more around here, so I look forward to hearing about it :)

thank you again,

B

[pokeyAC]

Would you care to enlighten us as to the changes in law in Australia that are forcing you to make these big decisions?  It sounds like the New Zealand laws are getting really tough too.  It seems pretty harsh that you would have to destroy frozen embryos and sperm.  I feel upset for you that your reproductive choices are being limited.

[NZmumof2]

Hey pokeyAC,

NZ actually has lots of great laws around assisted human reproduction and gay and lesbian parenthood.  The new law I was referring to comes out of an ART law that says that all donors of gametes whether egg or sperm must be willing to be known when the child of the donation turns 18.  (This was not the case prior to 2004) The upper limit timeframe on sperm / embryos was because many people are leaving them on ice till death and then the law was not clear about what should happen to them.  So the intention is that if you did want to keep them or to donate them to someone else you could do so, but they can only be stored for 10 years before you make that decision.  It is trying to make it an active decision.  So it isn't that all sperm / embryos would be destroyed next year, just that that is 10 years after the law change.  In fact our sperm was donated in 1996 and 2003 and I'm sure they would let us keep storing it if we wanted.  There would be few families that use donor gametes that have such a wide spread of kids as we do, most have 1 or 2 kids over a couple of years.

NZ also prohibits paying donors for donating gametes (or blood etc).  I like that law too because it means people are truly making the choice to help a family that needs gametes.

My partner and I are both on our kids birth certs and have equal parental rights, our boys were born before this law change and we were able to have their birth certs reissued with both names on them.  I was able to have IVF with my partner's egg without going to an ethics committee because we were a family, where a straight woman using an egg donor would need to go to an ethics committee.  And in a related area, yesterday a gay marriage bill passed our parliament by 80 votes to 40.  My partner and I have had a civil union and aren't so interested in marriage, but good to have marriage equality!

Glad my post was helpful to you blue elephant. :-)

Anna

[pokeyAC]

Hi Anna,

  Thank you for explaining.  That makes much more sense.  From what I have read, it seems Canada has similar laws about the donors not being anonymous.  It's great that you can still donate your stored embryos or sperm to someone else who can use them.  It sounds like you have a really good situation there in regards to the laws and your family.  We don't currently have many laws limiting frozen sperm or egg donation that affect queer couples.  There have been some recent legal issues regarding fresh sperm donation by known donors because the federal government considers it tissue donation that must be regulated.  We would have considered doing reciprocal IVF like you did, but our insurance does not pay for it so we would have to pay for it all ourselves. 

  Congratulations on the marriage bill passing in Parliament!  It will be wonderful to have one more country where it is legal.  My wife and I were married in Massachusetts which is the first state that legalized it here.  We live in California where it is not legal, so we are considered to have the same rights as domestic partners.  It was legal here for about 5 months and many people did get married.  Then a proposition passed on election day that made it illegal. The case is currently on its way to the US Supreme Court so it may be legal again in a couple years.  It's very complicated. 

Thank you for sharing the info!  I like learning about what is going on in other countries.  Congratulations on your new baby!

[seraf]

You have to decide now if you want your kids to have the same donor? Or if you want more kids at all?

My kids have 4 different donors. If I had retired when my first donor retired, I would have stopped with one.

How close in age are your kids? Overlapping pregnancies are harder than regular pregnancies because you have no one to lean on (to say the least). So either one of you might enjoy another pregnancy more than the last ones.

Good luck.

[blue elephant]

Hi, sorry for the delay (sick kids)

The law changes seem similar to in NZ. You already had to use id release sperm, but they also changed it so each donor could only be used by 5 women (down from 10 families) worldwide. Our sperm is imported from overseas, so it means it can no longer be used, except in the (short) transitional period.

A few years ago a separate law was also changed automatically putting the partner of the mother on the birth certificate (bringing it into line with hetero couples, and as long as Assisted reproduction was used, but this includes at home I think)

There are some other ones, like it is illegal now to pay anyone anywhere in the world for surrogacy (but I was reading last weekend that this might change again at some point).

This is only in my state (NSW), others have slightly different (or a lot) laws.

Seraf, yes, I would like to use the same donor. They are 7 months apart, (but I think closer would have been easier in some ways!) I think next time will be a lot easier!  But my DP tends to be more pessimistic, so is not so sure.

[seraf]

Since you've already used the donor, why can't you use him again any time? You're still the same two women.

Our boys are 6 months apart and I agree that closer together would have been easier. Mobile baby + defenseless newborn = challenge.