Medical Exemptions threatening Herd Immunity? - Page 3

[emmy526]

Originally Posted by pek64 

Medical exemptions are not hurting herd immunity. There are other exemptions, and people choosing those exemptions. Lying, and claiming a medical exemption when there is none is dangerous, because the parent might be asked for proof. However, if that was my only option (besides moving) I might take the risk.
I'm curious why only medical exemptions are being targeted, and where the idea that private school attendees and homeschoolers are automatically exempt came from.

like i said earlier, 

Quote:

Why all of a sudden, are drs who write medical exemptions under the spotlight?   Who is afraid they are telling the truth when it comes to vaccine damage?  Are there so many drs across the USA writing medical exemptions due to all the children reacting adversly to these vaccines?  Is someone trying to silence these drs by shaming them on their medical exemptions for kids?  

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by MamaMunchkin 

Re: public schools.

I believe some countries in Europe require much fewer vaxes to attend public schools - pls correct me if I'm wrong.

Does anyone have a list of what vaxes are required there?  Are our societies really that different with respect to VPDs - if so, how?  Why?  Any studies/links?  Thanks in advance.

In Canada:  Only 3 provinces out of 10 require any sort of exemption to attend public school.  I can assure you we do not have people dropping like flies from VPDs. Our VPD rates are probably similar (I will try to find a stat) to that of the USA, and our child mortality rate is lower.

From Vran.org:

Three provinces require proof of immunization for school entrance: Ontario and New Brunswick for diphtheria, tetanus, polio, measles, mumps, and rubella immunization; Manitoba for measles. But, exceptions are permitted on medical or religious grounds and reasons of conscience; legislation and regulations must not be interpreted to imply compulsory immunization."….

This means that nobody in Canada can be forced to receive a vaccination. In some cases, nursery schools, daycares, and other schools which are privately owned and operated can demand vaccination for enrollment. But publically-funded schools and daycares cannot."

I live in Ontario, my children are exempt under reasons of conscience.  The exemption was easy to get.

 

edited to add:  I found this which compares VPDs in different developed countries. HTH

 

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/publications/publishing.nsf/Content/cda-cdi34suppl.htm~cda-cdi34suppl-5-discussion.htm~cda-cdi34suppl-5-discussion5.htm

Edited by kathymuggle - 9/1/12 at 2:18pm

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama 

If you believe in herd immunity, then of course you would believe that the more unvaccinated people there are, the more that compromises herd immunity. For those of us who believe in herd immunity, the idea of lying for vax exemption to go to public school (where the rules are quite clear) isnt okay. People send their children to school, vaccinate, mostly because they believe that the more children that are vaccinated the less likely the kids are to get VPD's. If that isn't something you believe, then maybe you should rethink going to public school? Whether or not to keep DD up to date on her vaccines once she gets a little older (we are selective, but she's at home), will be solely based on whether or not we choose to homeschool. If my kids are going to school, they'll be getting vaccines, unless they have a medical reason for not getting them.

Why is a medical exemption okay but not other kinds?  Surely a medically  exempt child has the same risk of catching and spreading a disease as a philosophically exempt child?

If you (general you) think unvaccinated children are dangerous, then all unvaccinated children are dangerous. 

Letting in one kind of unvaccinated child (medically exempt) but not religious or philosophically exempt children  just smacks of punishing the parents for not vaccinating, and does not seem to have much to do with risk.

[marsupial-mom]

Obviously when it comes to herd immunity and the protection of children who need it, the reason a child is unvaxxed doesn't matter. But as the news article pointed out, it's theorized that parents are more likely to choose not to vaccinate when exemptions are easier to obtain.

From the article:
"In their study, Stephanie Stadlin, MPH, Robert A. Bednarczyk, PhD, and Saad B. Omer, MBBS, MPH, PhD, from the Hubert Department of Global Health at Emory University Rollins School of Public Health in Atlanta, evaluated state medical exemptions from kindergarten entry requirements over seven school years (from 2004-'05 to 2010-'11), which totaled 87,631 medical exemptions nationwide over the period studied. The researchers found that, compared to states with more stringent criteria for getting medical exemptions, states with easier requirements saw a significant increase in these exemptions. Their findings suggest that requiring more accountability of both parents and physicians for granting medical exemptions can be helpful in ensuring that these exemptions are valid and not used as an alternative to non-medical exemptions because they are easier to obtain."

[Taximom5]

What exactly do they mean by "requiring more accountability of both parents and physicians for granting medical exemptions", exactly?

Sounds like that can be taken to mean punitive action against both parents and physicians.

And that is just so WRONG, on so many levels!

It's wrong to punish anyone who does not want to risk a complication from an invasive procedure.

It's wrong to punish anyone who refuses to be coerced by profit-motivated corporations.

It's wrong to punish anyone who isn't swayed by the lies of an industry who has made billions of dollars from those lies.

And it's wrong to have given so much power to that industry.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by marsupial-mom 


"In their study, Stephanie Stadlin, MPH, Robert A. Bednarczyk, PhD, and Saad B. Omer, MBBS, MPH, PhD, from the Hubert Department of Global Health at Emory University Rollins School of Public Health in Atlanta, evaluated state medical exemptions from kindergarten entry requirements over seven school years (from 2004-'05 to 2010-'11), which totaled 87,631 medical exemptions nationwide over the period studied. The researchers found that, compared to states with more stringent criteria for getting medical exemptions, states with easier requirements saw a significant increase in these exemptions. Their findings suggest that requiring more accountability of both parents and physicians for granting medical exemptions can be helpful in ensuring that these exemptions are valid and not used as an alternative to non-medical exemptions because they are easier to obtain."

I am mostly interested in whether the ease of exemptions are linked to increase in VPD's - and, if so, at what threshold?

As shown on the link above, Canada does not seem to have more VPDs than the USA - the exception from the earlier link was Pertussis - but that might have been a one-off.  Why does Canada (a largely exemption free country) not have higher VPD's?

The vast majority of illnesses children catch and spread at school are not VPD's.  Are we going to exclude children who eat a lot of crap from school, children who do not sleep well, wash their hands regularly, children whose parents smoke?  Of course not.  

Children have a right to an education irregardless of the decisions their parents make around health or lifestyle.

The taxes I pay go towards both public school and vaccines, and I do not begrudge either.  I would be seriously ticked if I had to pay taxes and my children could not use public school unless I vaxxed.  

Personally, I do not see the need for any exemptions.  I am not convinced they make any real difference in VPD levels.  I am open to seeing studies that prove this or otherwise.

Edited by kathymuggle - 9/1/12 at 2:48pm

[Minerva23]

Originally Posted by MamaMunchkin 

Re: public schools.

I believe some countries in Europe require much fewer vaxes to attend public schools - pls correct me if I'm wrong.

Does anyone have a list of what vaxes are required there?  Are our societies really that different with respect to VPDs - if so, how?  Why?  Any studies/links?  Thanks in advance.

I can only speak for Germany. There is no homeschooling here and all children have to go to public school. We have similar vax recommendations in place. 

http://www.rki.de/EN/Content/Prevention/Vaccination/recommandations/Impfkalender_Englisch.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

But here they are only recommendations. You do not need any exemptions in order to go to school. Following the posts and discussions in the vaccines forums, I find it quite appalling how much of a hassle non-vaxxing can be in the US. However, big pharma is not sleeping here either and docs are trying to push vaccines on you too.The docs will only get paid by health insurance when he administers the vaccine. So they are eager to do so.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I am mostly interested in whether the ease of exemptions are linked to increase in VPD's - and, if so, at what threshold?

As shown on the link above, Canada does not seem to have more VPDs than the USA - the exception from the earlier link was Pertussis - but that might have been a one-off.  Why does Canada (a largely exemption free country) not have higher VPD's?

The vast majority of illnesses children catch and spread at school are not VPD's.  Are we going to exclude children who eat a lot of crap from school, children who do not sleep well, wash their hands regularly, children whose parents smoke?  Of course not.  

Children have a right to an education irregardless of the decisions their parents make around health or lifestyle.

The taxes I pay go towards both public school and vaccines, and I do not begrudge either.  I would be seriously ticked if I had to pay taxes and my children could not use public school unless I vaxxed.  

Personally, I do not see the need for any exemptions.  I am not convinced they make any real difference in VPD levels.  I am open to seeing studies that prove this or otherwise.

Your post suggested to me another obvious question.

What is the autism rate amongst the children of parents who have obtained exemptions, particularly those chidren who are copmletely unvaccinated?

Since they track EVERYONE, those who vax, and those who don't, this should be easy to find out.

And I'm betting, since the government has NOT trumpeted, "autism rate is just as high in those who don't vax," that the autism rate is actually noticeably LOWER in those who don't vax.

I wonder how much longer they will get away with pretending that they can't do a vax vs unvax study.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by marsupial-mom 

Obviously when it comes to herd immunity and the protection of children who need it, the reason a child is unvaxxed doesn't matter. But as the news article pointed out, it's theorized that parents are more likely to choose not to vaccinate when exemptions are easier to obtain.
 

I wonder if this is true.

If it came down to  vaccinate or homeschool - I would HS even if I had planned on sending them to public school (I might make an exception for a teen who wanted to go to school).  

It would make an interesting poll, although (as it is MDC) the response would only reflect this demographic.

___________________

In many ways I get that I am privileged to make this choice - that I can afford to not work and HS if I so desire.

Is that what tightening up exemptions comes down to - I am wealthy enough to make a health choice so I get to, but others who are not so wealthy, don't?  Kinda sucky.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by marsupial-mom 

The law is the law.

If you think it's an unjust law then try to change it or find an honest way to work around it. Lying and saying your child has a medical condition that he/she does not have is, in my opinion, a terrible way to protest something you think is an injustice.

Twenty states allow philosophical exemptions for those who object to immunizations because of a personal, moral or other beliefs. Why not use that exemption or move to a state that allows one? Or work to get your state to allow a philosophical exemption?

So easy for someone who favors vaccines to say.....how about don't judge a person until you've walked a mile in their shoes.

I would really love to know if you had a vaccine injured child (that was denied by the medical community) and you were faced with injuring them further or lying what you would do.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Originally Posted by marsupial-mom 

Obviously when it comes to herd immunity and the protection of children who need it, the reason a child is unvaxxed doesn't matter. But as the news article pointed out, it's theorized that parents are more likely to choose not to vaccinate when exemptions are easier to obtain.
 

I wonder if this is true.

If it came down to  vaccinate or homeschool - I would HS even if I had planned on sending them to public school (I might make an exception for a teen who wanted to go to school).  

It would make an interesting poll, although (as it is MDC) the response would only reflect this demographic.

___________________

In many ways I get that I am privileged to make this choice - that I can afford to not work and HS if I so desire.

Is that what tightening up exemptions comes down to - I am wealthy enough to make a health choice so I get to, but others who are not so wealthy, don't?  Kinda sucky.

I think if exemptions are hard to obtain, then that is forcing parents to vaccinate against their wills and/or beliefs. For example WV.

 http://www.wetheparents.info/

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

I think if exemptions are hard to obtain, then that is forcing parents to vaccinate against their wills and/or beliefs. For example WV.

 http://www.wetheparents.info/

I completely agree.

I sincerely hope there is no move to tighten exemptions.

[MamaMunchkin]

Originally Posted by marsupial-mom 

Obviously when it comes to herd immunity and the protection of children who need it, the reason a child is unvaxxed doesn't matter. But as the news article pointed out, it's theorized that parents are more likely to choose not to vaccinate when exemptions are easier to obtain.

As mentioned upstream - no requirements in Germany.  So if the theory holds, the rates of vaccination coverage in Germany would be lower than the US - no requirements, easier to opt out, more choose to non-vax ... but the WHO data doesn't seem to show this ...

For example, for the first DTP shot, the US has been in the 98% for the last few years.  Germany has been in the 99% - not lower as the theory would expect. Similar rates for the other shots listed too.  Similar rates for Canada too.  Actually - how big a change is to be expected from the theory anyway? 

Here's the link to the data -  this one if for the first dtp shot for all countries - but clicking on a specific country's name provides a summary for all shots for that country.

http://apps.who.int/immunization_monitoring/en/globalsummary/timeseries/tswucoveragedtp1.htm

For more on how the rates were obtained etc:

http://www.who.int/immunization_monitoring/routine/immunization_coverage/en/index4.html

Does living in Germany make a difference in deciding to vax/not - how, why?  Is the country as a whole more pro-vax then the US - how, why?  Is the theory making any assumptions that won't hold for Germany?  Or is the seeming discrepancy due to something entirely different? 

Edited by MamaMunchkin - 9/1/12 at 7:21pm

[APToddlerMama]

Originally Posted by Bokonon 

Amen.

There could be tens of thousands of people trying to change the law and it still comes down to who pays the most - ie. Big Pharma.

Besides, I would imagine that there are very, very few doctors willing to falsify a shot record.  "Lying" about a medical exemption wouldn't be as easy as it sounds, and I think there would be such a miniscule number of parents doing so that it would have little bearing on "herd immunity".

Agreed. Exemptions of all forms are not going to threaten herd immunity nearly as much as parents who just don't vaccinate due to access, time constraints, lack of education, etc. At one point we lived in a central city neighborhood targeted by some public health campaign. At the time, over 60% of children in a certain age group weren't up to date on vaccines. And it wasn't because their parents made the thoughtful decision not to vaccinate. There are also tons of older adults who are not fully vaccinated. Why not target these groups who may actually want and choose to vax instead of going nuts on people who are strongly opposed to vaccinating.

[BeckyBird]

Does anybody else see a totalitarianism agenda here?

totalitarianism, form of government that theoretically permits no individual freedom and that seeks to subordinate all aspects of the individual’s life to the authority of the government.

*Children are required to go to school, whether it is public, private, or home. If a child does  not attend school, the child will be taken away from the parents/guardians.

*Vaccinations are required in order to attend school. For now, there are exemptions available.

*What will happen when these exemptions are removed? Have you seen the news in California? This is a true concern, and it's already happening.

*So, WHEN the states finally succeed in removing the ability to obtain exemptions, what do we have? A country where vaccines are mandatory in order to attend school, which is also mandatory. Either vaccinate your kid for school, or lose your kid to the state. It's up to you--you will have that choice! Hey, maybe it's not so bad. At least you'll be given one choice in the matter.

The very idea of exemptions angers me. Where there is an exemption, there is the ability to remove that exemption. In the years ahead, you just watch how the laws will slowly begin to change, as they have in WV and MS, and soon to be CA. Watch how the philosophical exemptions will be eliminated, followed by religious. Even now, medical exemptions are under investigation.

And you vaccinating parents think this is a good idea? Heh heh, those non-vaxxers are gonna get it!! Well, in the spirit of totalitarianism, the laws will not begin and end with vaccines. Your personal medical freedom will almost certainly be taken away, just as ours will be. Don't want chemo, want to treat cancer nutritionally, perhaps with intravenous vitamin C? Nope, you must choose what the state mandates as the proper care. Just look at the birthing "business." It's assaulting us from every angle, and when vaccine choice is lost, other medical freedoms will follow. 

[APToddlerMama]

No kidding Beckybird. First it'll be vax exemptions. Then it will be mandatory circumcisions for the supposed public health risk of uncircumcised males spreading STDs and HIV more frequently.

[MamaMunchkin]

Originally Posted by BeckyBird 

Does anybody else see a totalitarianism agenda here?

Don't think we're there yet - but it's a slippery slope.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by BeckyBird 

Does anybody else see a totalitarianism agenda here?

Yes, I do. I agree with everything you wrote above. This is the totalitarian tiptoe fast becoming a quick step.

[MamaMunchkin]

deleted ...

never mind ... it's heated enough a discussion ...

[One_Girl]

I think not having an option for philosophical exemptions is the real problem not parents lying to avoid a vaccination they view as harmful. Our state recently passed a law requiring hep a and more varicella vaccinations for daycare entry and I was prepared to lie and say I had joined a religion and was claim religious exemption until I found that in my state you don't have to do all or none for philosophical objections. There are too many shots coming out that you suddenly need more of lately and it makes me more than a little nervous about injections that are new and apparently still experimental. I don't think it is right for any state to penalize a person because they don't want their child to be a Guinea pig for pharmaceutical companies. Until the law changed my dd was fully vaccinated and I would have never thought I would want an exemption for her, I was mostly against them at all, but now I am very happy that my state is so good and I think this is definitely a human rights issue to a large extent.