can't convince DP to keep baby intact... UPDATE in 1st post

[withlittlelungs]

I knew that DP was not onboard with keeping #2 (if it ends up that we have a boy) intact, but I thought that he just gave in. I brought it up in the car the other day to make sure we were on the same page, and we are not. His reasons are SO irritating. He doesn't want him made fun of in the locker room, he says the first time he is going to have sex the girl won't want to because he won't be circumcised, and because "it looks weird". 

He doesn't believe me when I tell him that circ is becoming less and less popular. And his reasonings make me so upset. I started crying in the car. I have such guilt over circumcising #1, and I refuse to do it again. 

I don't know what to do if we can't agree. I'm not going to give in, but I don't want this to cause any arguments. 

Does anyone have any articles that would be particularly persuasive for dads?

UPDATE: I hadn't been forcing any info  re: circumcision onto DP, because I already decided that it wasn't happening. Yesterday at our MW appointment, I saw that they had some pamphlets on the subject, so I just grabbed them. I handed them to DP last night and he said, "I already thought about it and I'm fine not doing it. But I think if he wants to when he gets older then we should let him". Thank god. 

Edited by withlittlelungs - 11/9/12 at 12:00pm

[APToddlerMama]

I was exactly in this same situation last year this time. We had circed ds1 because we didn't know better. The way I see it is *not* that you have to convince your dp to keep your son intact. No way. He needs to convince you to allow the dr to circ him which obviously you should not allow. If you can't come to an agreement, the default isn't "fine we circ him." The default is you do nothing.

Personally I decided I was planting my feet and my DH wasn't going to win this battle. Still, I wanted to try to convince him to make the choice on his own if possible. What convinced him was telling him that circumcised males have a much higher rate of erectile dysfunction. Worked like a charm. Good luck. It is worth a big argument if that's what it comes down to.

[MCatLvrMom2A&X]

I hope you can find a way to convince him but if not then you will have to put your foot down like many other mama's here on this board have done and just say no. Most dh's eventually come around and while they dont always become intactavists they do eventually let it go.

Good luck.

[philomom]

My son is 16. He's intact and never had any issues.

His peer group was 60 % cut to 40% intact.. according to his birth year. So his female peers are encountering both types if they are sexually active.

The newest set of baby boys is even more intact. Almost 70% intact. So, really... its the cut ones who will be "the odd boys".

[Goodmom2008]

If neither one of you budges, and I hope you don't, then you are going to have to fight over this. 

Personally, if my ex had not come around, we would have gotten divorced a whole lot sooner and we wouldn't have had a second child.  Because there was no way that I was ever going to allow my son's penis to be mutilated. 

BTW, my ex is circumcised.  His father is intact.  My ex never knew until our son was a year old. 

And the kids don't really get naked in the locker room.  And even if they did, who  is going to want to admit to checking out someone else's genitals? 

[MichelleZB]

Okay, your partner is at the "irrational argument" stage. Guys don't really get naked and look at each other's penises in the locker room. Even if they did, there will be more than one intact kid in your son's class.

What do you mean, he doesn't "believe" you when you say circumcision rates are going down? That's not something he has to take on faith! He can look up those numbers. It's like he's totally shut down.

I'm a 28-year-old Canadian, a good many of my peers are intact. They do not have trouble getting sex partners. Your husband will probably hate hearing this (because I assume he is circumcised) but the word on the street is that sex with an intact man is better. Once there are a few intact guys in the dating pool, word gets around. Your son will not have a problem with the ladies.

The US is really the only country that does this (and Israel? I guess?). People don't circumcise routinely anywhere else. It's like, a weird US thing, like Female Genital Cutting is only done is certain parts of the world, and the rest of the world thinks they're mad.

I think you should tell your partner that he seems very emotional about this, and that you'll talk again in a little while once he is able to be sensible. Tell him that he can look up circumcision rates in the US and globally. It might help him to look up the history of circumcision (started in the 19th century in the US to prevent boys from masturbating) and do a little digging around. Also, be sure to tell him that you like his penis a lot, and that this isn't about his penis.

[withlittlelungs]

If we do not come to an agreement, there is no way that I am giving in. We are giving birth in a birthing center, so it isn't like we will be in the hospital with a choice whether to circ or not. He would have to find a doctor and schedule a circ and deal with all of that for it even to be an option. I really don't think he cares enough to do all of that. 
I have plenty of time to convince him before this baby is born. I know he just being irrational, and he isn't a close-minded person. I will just present him with as much evidence as possible to educate him on leaving baby intact.

Thank you all for your input and for being kind to DP (even though he is being dumb )!

[Sharlla]

you dont really have to come to an agreement, IMO in this situation the one that doesnt want to circ wins.  so just dont do it.  honestly i think after awhile he will just give up after the baby is there. 
 

[puddle]

He may never come around.  My DH never did.  To the extent that he made two appointments with a urologist.  At the first one, the doctor said we should think about it and if we agreed to come back and have it done.  At the second, I said I still wasn't okay with it and he refused to do the procedure when I was objecting to it, so that was that.  DH was furious and it was not pretty for awhile.  DH is still convinced that my son's foreskin is a ticking time bomb that will one day doom us all.  But we got through it, and even though our disagreement made the first few weeks of our son's life a miserable time, it was absolutely worth it to save him.  So my advice would be to prepare yourself emotionally and make sure you have all the emotional support you will need after your son's birth in case your DH can't deal with it.

I'd also recommend reading this, to help understand where your DH is coming from.

[~Adorkable~]

Originally Posted by MichelleZB 
The US is really the only country that does this (and Israel? I guess?). People don't circumcise routinely anywhere else. It's like, a weird US thing, like Female Genital Cutting is only done is certain parts of the world, and the rest of the world thinks they're mad.

this is such a good way at looking at this, and it is so very true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goodmom2008 
And the kids don't really get naked in the locker room.  And even if they did, who  is going to want to admit to checking out someone else's genitals? 

i heard someone say that her sons once got asked (not made fun of, asked) about his penis in a locker room at camp, and yeah it ended up the boy who asked that got made fun of for looking. while no mocking is nice, it does seem this direction would be more likely in any case. and yeah the boys know it and thats why they would never say anything i bet.

Originally Posted by APToddlerMama 
The way I see it is *not* that you have to convince your dp to keep your son intact. No way. He needs to convince you to allow the dr to circ him which obviously you should not allow. If you can't come to an agreement, the default isn't "fine we circ him." The default is you do nothing.

this is the bottom line here.

in my case i laid all my facts out calmly one last time, with links to two good websites that i thought spoke to his style of learning and concerns the most, and then simply said what APmama said above, that the burden of proof was on him and that i felt this was a human rights issues and would take a stand based on that.

I also knew i was having one boy and one girl, a set of twins. i once used the line, "cut both or leave both whole", that was a powerful image to share!  once they were born and in the days surrounding that, i was asked numerous times if i was circling, and i always said proudly that no, both my babies were going to remain intact. it usually got a very confused then really grossed out reply, but it got folks thinking and that is powerful. why would i not treat both my kids the same. in most countries cutting either baby would be seen as messed up, like Michelle said, we are a strange land for doing this to baby boys, just as strange as we think the folks that do it to  their girls are.

[KeliG]

I have heard that there are really graphic videos on youtube of infant circs being done and that they are enough to change almost anyone's mind. Maybe making him watch a few of those would change his. The description of the procedure was enough for me to change mine. The list of possible complications is pretty scary and the thought of the healing environment being a dirty diaper is pretty awful too. I heard of one doctor who wouldn't agree to do a circ unless the parents were in the room too, apparently that stopped most parents before the damage was done. All pretty brutal tactics but it's a pretty violent act so...

Also, when I learned about circ and how terrible it is I took the time to connect very deeply with my husband and apologized to him for the violence done to him as a child. I didn't let him brush it off as nothing, I persisted until he internalized and accepted my apology.  I think that it made a difference in solidifying us as a couple against the process.

[tropicana]

Originally Posted by withlittlelungs 

If we do not come to an agreement, there is no way that I am giving in. We are giving birth in a birthing center, so it isn't like we will be in the hospital with a choice whether to circ or not. He would have to find a doctor and schedule a circ and deal with all of that for it even to be an option. I really don't think he cares enough to do all of that. 
I have plenty of time to convince him before this baby is born. I know he just being irrational, and he isn't a close-minded person. I will just present him with as much evidence as possible to educate him on leaving baby intact.

Thank you all for your input and for being kind to DP (even though he is being dumb )!

good. that's all it takes. one parent who wants to keep the child intact. 

i would take the advice though to stop arguing about it. you should tell him calmly and with certainty that you have made up your mind though. and the people are right who say that it is up to him to convince you to do elective cosmetic surgery. 

use your best judgement on how to handle this with your DP, and keep coming back to this board for moral support in keeping up your decision.

[Greg B]

Originally Posted by withlittlelungs 

I knew that DP was not onboard with keeping #2 (if it ends up that we have a boy) intact, but I thought that he just gave in. I brought it up in the car the other day to make sure we were on the same page, and we are not. His reasons are SO irritating. He doesn't want him made fun of in the locker room, he says the first time he is going to have sex the girl won't want to because he won't be circumcised, and because "it looks weird". 
He doesn't believe me when I tell him that circ is becoming less and less popular. And his reasonings make me so upset. I started crying in the car. I have such guilt over circumcising #1, and I refuse to do it again. 
I don't know what to do if we can't agree. I'm not going to give in, but I don't want this to cause any arguments. 
Does anyone have any articles that would be particularly persuasive for dads?

Listen to the words he is using.  He is saying he doesn't believe you.  But you are giving him facts.  He must give you alternative facts, not opinions.

"Made fun of"  silly argument that people believe because of all the fearmongering that pro circ people spew.  If it isn't foreskin, it will be something else.  that is the way kids are.  does he propose to stop all teasing?  what about giving your son the mental attitidue to withstand cruel teasing that will come his way no matter what?

"First girl won't want to"  silly argument based on fearmongering.  It has been said that a foreskin is a great "shallow woman" repellant.  Besides which the foreskin makes sex so much better for the woman that if she has had the experience, she most likely prefers it.  Wonder how all those Europeans get laid...

The default should be intact.  This is because the parents are supposed to act in the best interest of the child, and leave his options open, unless compelling medical needs intervene.  So your DP must give you a logical arguemnt based on facts.  Not arguments based on opinion and fearmongering.  Then you both must come to agreement that RIC is in the best interest of your son.  Otherwise, leave him intact.

Here are two articles form Doctors, arguing against RIC.  Show them to your husband, but be forewarned they are filled with facts.  If he wants to argeu against these, he must come up with his won references that make a compelling case for RIC.  Then, again, you both must come to agreement to do something other than the default.

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/pdf/DOC_trifold_brochure.pdf

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/DOC/statement0.html

http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/pdf/2012-08-26A_Commentary.pdf

Stay strong.  You are doing the right thing for your child.

Regards

[Carlyle]

I second the recommendation for this article: http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/vincent/vulnerability_of_men.html  I think it's a more accurate indication of your dh's reasoning than even he knows.  It might help you in shaping your conversations with him and understanding his point of view a bit better (and then standing firm anyway).

[Storm Bride]

I agree that you don't have to win your dh over (I told both my ex and dh that any baby boys we had weren't being circ'd - period). But, I think it might be worth it to point out to him that what he's saying is that he wants to perform cosmetic surgery on a newborn infant. Maybe reframing it that way will make him think from a different angle?

[transylvania_mom]

Sorry to hear you are so upset about it. I have to admit I have no personal experience as far as discussing circ. with dh (he shudders at the thought of circ.), but I would step away from these kind of discussions. Maybe if you tell your dh that you don't need to decide it right away, or if you don't present it like an argument that you need to win or lose, and tell him your son can decide when he gets older, it might change his attitude.
 

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by KeliG 

I have heard that there are really graphic videos on youtube of infant circs being done and that they are enough to change almost anyone's mind. Maybe making him watch a few of those would change his. The description of the procedure was enough for me to change mine. The list of possible complications is pretty scary and the thought of the healing environment being a dirty diaper is pretty awful too. I heard of one doctor who wouldn't agree to do a circ unless the parents were in the room too, apparently that stopped most parents before the damage was done. All pretty brutal tactics but it's a pretty violent act so...

Also, when I learned about circ and how terrible it is I took the time to connect very deeply with my husband and apologized to him for the violence done to him as a child. I didn't let him brush it off as nothing, I persisted until he internalized and accepted my apology.  I think that it made a difference in solidifying us as a couple against the process.

Yup worked for me!

[A&A]

Just keep repeating "over my dead body."  

[mama24-7]

Originally Posted by A&A 

Just keep repeating "over my dead body." 

I think this is fine to think, but it could backfire for some couples.  I'm going to recommend, also, that you read the link in post 14 to understand why your dh is being so irrational about this.  Also, I've seen before when mamas come on here w/ a similar story to yours, that they say to the father-to-be that he has to present fact based information that shows that circ is the way to go since they are the ones who want something done.  Or, I think someone up thread said to simply say that you're not saying no, but leaving the decision up to your son, to make when he's a consenting adult.  

I think at this point, the best thing may be to just leave it alone.  You said he's not a close-minded person.  That article can help you understand why he is being so w/ this subject.

There was a mother-to-be who posted on here a lot when she was dealing w/ the same thing w/ her dh.  Her name is Tammy & I believe her username is Tammy something too.  Perhaps search for her threads.  Her dh came around when he held their baby shortly after the birth.  IIRC, she says he's not an intactivist now, but he is glad they kept their baby whole.

Best wishes,

Sus

[erinsuzy]

Don't give in! Your son needs you to protect him, and you are the only one who can do that right now! How many infant helpless boys are trapped to the circumstraint screaming for their mothers who won't come? How many infant boys died from complications...  and for what? Think of these things.... and it is guaranteed that you won't regret it. Your son may thank you one day.

Show your husband a video of it being done. That was the main thing that changed my husband's mind and it disturbed him so badly that he still tells people about it. 

And if he still won't agree, you can do a few things:

1. you could go as far as leaving for a short time and staying with family/friends until it all blows over and the child is born and in safe hands

2. You could convince him to "wait" until the child is a year old, then maybe by that time he can see it is not as scary or high maintenance as he thinks. People are often afraid of what they don't understand and that can give him some experience with it.

Good luck, and keep us posted. Follow your insticts because mother nature is no fool.