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What is ADHD - Page 2

post #21 of 126
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngieB View Post
Ds is not ADHD because of vaccines, like all the other posters have said his brain is wired different. Has been since before birth. His brain is amazing, and he is going to do amazing things.

 

Brains do not rewire UNLESS they are damaged in some fashion by SOMETHING. "Vaccines" (which can cause damage in utero) are only one way to damage a brain. Mercury does seem to hold a special place as an ENVIRONMENTAL cause of brain damage.

post #22 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louisw View Post

Brains do not rewire UNLESS they are damaged in some fashion by SOMETHING. "Vaccines" (which can cause damage in utero) are only one way to damage a brain. Mercury does seem to hold a special place as an ENVIRONMENTAL cause of brain damage.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are say. My ds brain was not rewired, that was my point he was born this way. His brain was wired differently to begin with. From what you are say it seems like you are trying to clam that a vaccine I had 20 or more years before ds was conceived some how caused ADHD. If that was the case why are my other 3 children not also effected? Everyone is different, my ds is brilliant, his brain is working so fast he can't control it the way most people do. That's all. I don't think there is any other thing at work, it's just different from most people. Just like there are fewer red heads in the world than other colors of hair, most peoples brains form in a "normal" way and some people's brains from in a bit different way that has some disadvantages but also some major advantages.
post #23 of 126
I also forgot to add that my dh is also ADHD, not to the extreme of ds, but there is also a genetic factor involved.
post #24 of 126
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngieB View Post

From what you are say it seems like you are trying to clam that a vaccine I had 20 or more years before ds was conceived some how caused ADHD.

 

No I am not saying that.

 

What I said was that "vaccination" and MANY other ENVIRONMENTAL factors can cause brain damage. A rewired brain has been damaged in some fashion.

post #25 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louisw View Post

No I am not saying that.

What I said was that "vaccination" and MANY other ENVIRONMENTAL factors can cause brain damage. A rewired brain has been damaged in some fashion.

And what I'm saying is my ds's brain is not damaged, it's just different.
post #26 of 126

Louis seems to be operating from the viewpoint that everyone's brain is "normal" and the same unless there is some external environmental factor to cause a change (damage). 

 

I, and I think many others here, operate from the viewpoint that everyone is different. Some people fit into the general societal definition of "normal" more easily than others. This is most often not due to some external cause (damage), but due to the inherent differences that make us who we are as individual people.

 

The definition of ADHD (from both the DSM-IV and the proposed DSM-V) deals with symptoms, not the cause.

 

Louis, if you feel a driving need to make a contribution to society by determining and eliminating any of the probably myriad causes (be they pharmaceutical, genetic, environmental exposures, etc.) then I suggest that this is not the proper venue for your worthy crusade. We are not medical professionals or researchers. All we can offer is anecdotal evidence regarding our own personal experiences. Get yourself into the lab and get some research done so that maybe, in some distant future, society has better ways to deal with our differences than drugging them out of us.

 

We come to fora like this in order to get support and ideas for dealing with our challenges, not to be berated and made to feel guilty for something that might have happened in the past (but probably didn't) that we may have had no control over. At this point, I do not care what the cause of my wife's and daughters ADHD is. That it exists is enough, and part of my task is to deal with reality and help them out to the best of my ability so that they don't need to be drugged into submission to society's definition of "normal."

post #27 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fionn View Post

 

 

We come to fora like this in order to get support and ideas for dealing with our challenges, not to be berated and made to feel guilty for something that might have happened in the past (but probably didn't) that we may have had no control over. At this point, I do not care what the cause of my wife's and daughters ADHD is. That it exists is enough, and part of my task is to deal with reality and help them out to the best of my ability so that they don't need to be drugged into submission to society's definition of "normal."

 

I don't believe Louis was intentionally berating or trying to make you or any person with ADHD or any parent with a child that has ADHD feel guilty.  That ADHD exists maybe enough for you and other parents and that is fine and good. But maybe some would like to know the cause because they feel they might be in a better position to help their child, or themselves. As the parent of a now adult child with ADHD, I can assure you I wish with all my heart I could take back the vaccines she was given as a baby and child. Having two completely unvaccinated younger children, the difference between her and her unvaxed siblings is marked. At 22 my DD has learned to compensate for her ADHD with various tricks and tools, but it isn't easy for her. She has never, and never will, take medication for ADHD.

 

ETA: I do believe vaccines were the cause of my DD's ADHD, and it began with the Hep B and BCG vaccinations at birth. She got the first of the DPT series as a four month old and had an adverse reaction: the encephalitic cry. She also reacted the same way to the second shot in the series as a 6 month old. 


Edited by Mirzam - 9/9/12 at 5:26pm
post #28 of 126
What bothers me is that ADHD diagnosis and giftedness identification seem (based on what I've read here in various threads) to go together. That seems coincidental, or perhaps there is something else going on.

If you want me to believe there is a direct cause and effect between vaccines and ADHD. I would need some numbers. And all other factors (food, water, etc) would have to be the same for the vaxed and unvaxed groups.

I think to really get a clear picture, autoimmune illnesses of all types should be included.

Mirzam -- for the vaccinations that your dd reacted badly with, where was she injected? Specifically.
post #29 of 126

Just for discussion's sake....... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_vs._farmer_theory

 

 

 

 

My 12 year old is diagnosed ADHD combined type(that is, both inattentive and hyperactive).  She tested extremely high in the IQ tests but critically low in processing speed and working memory.  I've known since her birth that she seemed different somehow but being my first baby, I didn't have comparison other than other people's children.  She always catnapped, never more than 20minutes at a time.  She was always unhappy unless she was held and even then she HAD to be moving.  In arms only.  Mechanical movement didn't do it.  Carseats were torture.  As a toddler, if we didn't go somewhere every single day she was an unhappy screaming mess.  I knew before she hit kindergarten that the diagnosis would be ADHD but I didn't get her officially diagnosed until I felt the need to medicate her in 4th grade.  She began to have trouble in school ending up with recess detention daily and having the principal calling us and the teacher calling us using phrases like "doesn't do well in unstructured environments" and "is not a self-starter" and "needs excessive reminders for nearly all things."  Her previously wonderful grades were slipping fast.  So we took her to the pediatric psychiatrist and got her diagnosed over a month's time and started med trials.  She's been on Adderall XR for about 18months now and in seventh grade she's in accelerated math, chorus, and a full course load of classes.  She's achieving nearly straight A's.  We've had no discipline problems at all.  But if we forget her meds one day she's acting out and hitting her sisters in anger, she's forgetting books and homework at school, she's literally bouncing up and down sitting in chairs, etc.  Even with meds she requires constant structure and "rules."  She needs reminders of everything, she needs a diet low in preservatives, artificial stuff, and sugar.  So meds aren't a cure for her, just a little nudge in the right direction of being capable of keeping her hands to herself and being able to remember her homework and to change her underwear on a daily basis.  

Personally I don't know what "caused" her ADHD.  I was 19 and uninformed when she was born and made a lot of mistakes.  She was vaccinated on schedule until 18months.  She was on soy formula supplements along with breastfeeding by 2 weeks old in an Avent bottle that we now know was made with BPA.  She started solids at 4months.  But she coslept and was worn from birth.  She was and still is exceptionally healthy.  There was no behavior change after a vaccine or after starting the formula or whatever that I could assume was a damaging cause in her brain.  She just is.  Maybe one day we'll find a genetic component and realize that these kids are predisposed and environmental pollution or offgassing furniture or whatever is triggering them.  But all I know is that she is extremely intelligent, she's a fabulous problem-solver who thinks outside the box, and is creative and mechanically inclined beyond both her father and I combined and she just happens to also be impulsive and extremely high-energy and flighty.  Maybe we are medicating for something that's innate personality traits just because these kids don't fit in with our sitting still for 6 hours listening to teachers school system and there's nothing "wrong" with them.  

post #30 of 126

The new criteria from DSM - V:

 

 

 

 

Quote:

a.   Often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, at work, or during other activities (e.g., overlooks or misses details, work is inaccurate).

b.   Often has difficulty sustaining attention in tasks or play activities (e.g., has difficulty remaining focused during lectures, conversations, or reading lengthy writings).

c.   Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly (e.g., mind seems elsewhere, even in the absence of any obvious distraction).

d.   Often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace (e.g., starts tasks but quickly loses focus and is easily sidetracked;  fails to finish schoolwork, household chores, or tasks in the workplace).

e.   Often has difficulty organizing tasks and activities (e.g., difficulty managing sequential tasks; difficulty keeping materials and belongings in order; messy, disorganized, work; poor time management; tends to fail to meet deadlines).

f.    Often avoids, dislikes, or is reluctant to engage in tasks that require sustained mental effort (e.g., schoolwork or homework; for older adolescents and adults, preparing reports, completing forms, or reviewing lengthy papers).

g.   Often loses things necessary for tasks or activities (e.g., school materials, pencils, books, tools, wallets, keys, paperwork, eyeglasses, or mobile telephones).

h.   Is often easily distracted by extraneous stimuli (for older adolescents and adults, may include unrelated thoughts).

i.    Is often forgetful in daily activities (e.g., chores, running errands; for older adolescents and adults, returning calls, paying bills, keeping appointments).

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:

a.   Often fidgets with or taps hands or feet or squirms in seat.

b.   Often leaves seat in situations when remaining seated is expected (e.g., leaves his or her place in the classroom, office or other workplace, or in other situations that require remaining seated).

c.   Often runs about or climbs in situations where it is inappropriate. (In adolescents or adults, may be limited to feeling restless).

d.   Often unable to play or engage in leisure activities quietly. 

e.   Is often “on the go,” acting as if “driven by a motor” (e.g., is unable or uncomfortable being still for an extended time, as in restaurants, meetings, etc; may be experienced by others as being restless and difficult to keep up with).

f.    Often talks excessively.

g.   Often blurts out an answer before a question has been completed (e.g., completes people’s sentences and “jumps the gun” in conversations, cannot wait for next turn in conversation).

h.   Often has difficulty waiting his or her turn (e.g., while waiting in line).

i.    Often interrupts or intrudes on others (e.g., butts into conversations, games, or activities; may start using other people’s things without asking or receiving permission, adolescents or adults may intrude into or take over what others are doing).

 

 

 

Well, going through the first part of the list, I am guilty of many of these things, but I certainly wouldn't classify myself as having ADHD. This list makes ADHD sound like some made up disorder and an excuse to medicate as many people as possible. I am not saying that those with ADHD kids have a fake disorder, far from it. But this seems to trivialize the condition into a menu of behaviors that describe bored, disruptive or reluctant students or in the case of the first selection of behaviors, those of us with perimenopause.

post #31 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

What bothers me is that ADHD diagnosis and giftedness identification seem (based on what I've read here in various threads) to go together. That seems coincidental, or perhaps there is something else going on.

If you want me to believe there is a direct cause and effect between vaccines and ADHD. I would need some numbers. And all other factors (food, water, etc) would have to be the same for the vaxed and unvaxed groups.

I think to really get a clear picture, autoimmune illnesses of all types should be included.

Mirzam -- for the vaccinations that your dd reacted badly with, where was she injected? Specifically.

 

Vaccinations can cause encephalitis, which is what I believe my DD had with the two adverse reactions to DPT (one shot was administered in Hong Kong and the other in the UK).

 

It was a long time ago, but IIRC the vaccinations were given in her thigh. As for food and water, my DD was born in Hong Kong and lived there until she was six when we moved to the US. She was breast fed until she was four years old, did not drink fluoridated water and ate a clean whole foods diet, with limited sugar. My unvaxed children with no ADHD symptoms were born in the US, both also breast fed until four years old, they do not drink, nor do I cook with fluoridated water, they also have a whole foods bordering on Traditional foods diet (raw dairy, fermented foods etc) and very limited sugar (DD #1 also had the same diet in the US as her siblings). None of my children have autoimmune diseases.

post #32 of 126
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justmama View Post
Maybe we are medicating for something that's innate personality traits just because these kids don't fit in with our sitting still for 6 hours listening to teachers school system and there's nothing "wrong" with them.  

 

Yes I think this is certainly true.

 

Since ADHD is a syndrome and not a medically diagnosable condition we have absolutely no way to know what organic cause if any is present when someone is LABELED ADHD.

post #33 of 126
Thread Starter 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fionn View Post

 

then I suggest that this is not the proper venue for your worthy crusade. We are not medical professionals or researchers. All we can offer is anecdotal evidence regarding our own personal experiences. Get yourself into the lab and get some research done so that maybe, in some distant future, society has better ways to deal with our differences than drugging them out of us.

 

[edited to remove attack on poster]

 

We are not medical professionals true. And what has the Medical Industry contributed to our understanding of autism? Not much IMO. Some doctors working largely independently with no support from the Medical Industry have accomplished LOTS. I have learned much of what I know about the ASDs from these good doctors and other INDIVIDUALS.

 

We, potentially, can  work largely independently with no support from the Medical Industry and also accomplish LOTS.

 

We are not medical professionals true. But we can understand simple medical and physiological principles.

 

This thread was created to discover and understand what ADHD is. It is NOT directly a support thread. However a solid understand of ADHD will support everyone IMO.

 

ADHD can be solved by MOTHERS without going anywhere near a medical lab of any sort. Our homes and children are OUR LABS.

 

We just have to talk it out and come to some conclusions.


Edited by Louisw - 9/11/12 at 7:12am
post #34 of 126
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngieB View Post


And what I'm saying is my ds's brain is not damaged, it's just different.

 

OK I'll add that category to our list of things that fall under the ADHD LABEL.

 

How about calling it brains that appear to be innately rewired

post #35 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

The new criteria from DSM - V:

 

Well, going through the first part of the list, I am guilty of many of these things, but I certainly wouldn't classify myself as having ADHD. This list makes ADHD sound like some made up disorder and an excuse to medicate as many people as possible. I am not saying that those with ADHD kids have a fake disorder, far from it. But this seems to trivialize the condition into a menu of behaviors that describe bored, disruptive or reluctant students or in the case of the first selection of behaviors, those of us with perimenopause.

 

If you have the symptoms on that list to the point that they impair your life, why wouldn't you classify yourself as having ADHD? (Or, if they're caused by perimenopause or other hormonal process, you're excluded from an ADHD diagnosis on the basis of the "not better accounted for by another mental disorder"?) Or if you don't cause you major problems, this is like saying, "I'm sad sometimes, so this list of depression symptoms makes it seem like some made-up disorder and an excuse to medicate as many people as possible...."

 

The criteria obviously can't be too specific or else they would only apply to people in certain circumstances, e.g. only adults in the workforce, or only students, etc.

post #36 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

Vaccinations can cause encephalitis, which is what I believe my DD had with the two adverse reactions to DPT (one shot was administered in Hong Kong and the other in the UK).

It was a long time ago, but IIRC the vaccinations were given in her thigh. As for food and water, my DD was born in Hong Kong and lived there until she was six when we moved to the US. She was breast fed until she was four years old, did not drink fluoridated water and ate a clean whole foods diet, with limited sugar. My unvaxed children with no ADHD symptoms were born in the US, both also breast fed until four years old, they do not drink, nor do I cook with fluoridated water, they also have a whole foods bordering on Traditional foods diet (raw dairy, fermented foods etc) and very limited sugar (DD #1 also had the same diet in the US as her siblings). None of my children have autoimmune diseases.

Do I understand correctly that both vaccinations that she reacted to badly where injected into her thigh?
post #37 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyllya View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

The new criteria from DSM - V:

 

Well, going through the first part of the list, I am guilty of many of these things, but I certainly wouldn't classify myself as having ADHD. This list makes ADHD sound like some made up disorder and an excuse to medicate as many people as possible. I am not saying that those with ADHD kids have a fake disorder, far from it. But this seems to trivialize the condition into a menu of behaviors that describe bored, disruptive or reluctant students or in the case of the first selection of behaviors, those of us with perimenopause.

 

If you have the symptoms on that list to the point that they impair your life, why wouldn't you classify yourself as having ADHD? (Or, if they're caused by perimenopause or other hormonal process, you're excluded from an ADHD diagnosis on the basis of the "not better accounted for by another mental disorder"?) Or if you don't cause you major problems, this is like saying, "I'm sad sometimes, so this list of depression symptoms makes it seem like some made-up disorder and an excuse to medicate as many people as possible...."

 

The criteria obviously can't be too specific or else they would only apply to people in certain circumstances, e.g. only adults in the workforce, or only students, etc.

 

First of all, I really can't call them "symptoms", these are behaviors, not a symptom of a disease or a disorder. Misplacing my glasses or my car keys, or forgetting to pick up paper towels at the store, or to call someone back, etc isn't a disorder that requires pharmaceutical medication. I won't go to depression, because that too is a group of behaviors, created in the same way as the diagnosis for ADHD.

post #38 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by pek64 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirzam View Post

Vaccinations can cause encephalitis, which is what I believe my DD had with the two adverse reactions to DPT (one shot was administered in Hong Kong and the other in the UK).

It was a long time ago, but IIRC the vaccinations were given in her thigh. As for food and water, my DD was born in Hong Kong and lived there until she was six when we moved to the US. She was breast fed until she was four years old, did not drink fluoridated water and ate a clean whole foods diet, with limited sugar. My unvaxed children with no ADHD symptoms were born in the US, both also breast fed until four years old, they do not drink, nor do I cook with fluoridated water, they also have a whole foods bordering on Traditional foods diet (raw dairy, fermented foods etc) and very limited sugar (DD #1 also had the same diet in the US as her siblings). None of my children have autoimmune diseases.

Do I understand correctly that both vaccinations that she reacted to badly where injected into her thigh?

 

I think so. It was 22 years ago......!

post #39 of 126
I appreciate you trying to remember!!

My thought is this -- accupressure and accupuncture are used to heal. What if hitting a major nerve (in addition to being very painful) *causes* or triggers a problem or disease. I wonder what would be the result of a poll on that subject.
post #40 of 126

Hi Fionn.  Welcome to MDC!  I just wanted to give you a heads up regarding posting.  Please try to keep things to debating the post and not the poster.  I'd also like to invite you over to the Special Needs Parenting Forum, if you haven't already been there.  I think you'll find a lot of support there. 

 

LouisW-

Remember, debate the post, not the poster.  If you feel that something is a user agreement violation, report it.  Don't respond to it. 

 

Thanks!

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