What is ADHD - Page 4

[AmandaT]

I'm not offended at all.

I just couldn't trust myself to type out an accurate description of the disorder, heh

[art67]

Originally Posted by Louisw 

It is my opinion that much of ADHD is an Autism  Spectrum Disease.

The ADHD that is an ASD differs from autism by being closer to the milder side of the spectrum. Somewhere along the spectrum severe ADHD blends into mild autism.

Of course we must keep in mind there are MANY different things LABELED ADHD.

I completely agree with you. There is too much overlap. Some doctors in Europe are already looking into it.

[art67]

Originally Posted by Louisw 

It is my opinion that much of ADHD is an Autism  Spectrum Disease.

The ADHD that is an ASD differs from autism by being closer to the milder side of the spectrum. Somewhere along the spectrum severe ADHD blends into mild autism.

Of course we must keep in mind there are MANY different things LABELED ADHD.

I completely agree with you. There is too much overlap. Some doctors in Europe are already looking into it.

[Louisw]

Originally Posted by catnip 

I tend to disagree with the perception that diagnosis = medication.

FALSE diagnosis = medication. is OFTEN a problem with the LABEL ADHD. The diagnosis of ADHD can only be made by a Mental Health Professional.

Often what happens is the TEACHER, Principal or School Nurse, who cannot make ANY Mental Health Disorder diagnosis,  says to the poor parent "Your child has ADHD and WE think he should start taking Ritalin."

The parent is often PRESSURED into giving this deadly drug to their child when there is NO ADHD Mental Health Disorder Diagnosis present; let alone any objective determination that any but an, often mild,  behavior problem exists.

"A new study reveals that healthy kids who take Ritalin have a whopping 500 percent greater risk of sudden death. These aren’t kids with pre-existing heart conditions. ... The same study that found Ritalin stunts kids’ growth also found that it has no beneficial effect on behavior over a three-year period.”    Doctor Al Sears MD, Note most schools receive about 1000 dollars/year for each student they can snare into the drug program

Of course this destructive cluster is allowed to continue because it suits the needs of the establishment if not the child and parent.

o The school often receives a monetary grant for children LABELED ADHD.

o Big Pharma is happy

o The teacher trades an excited to be alive disruptive child for a zombie.

o Rockefeller is happy

Please note this does not always happen. It just happens WAY too many times.

The above is one reason we must determine all the things the LABEL ADHD can be and determine appropriate action(s) for each.

[Louisw]

Originally Posted by bec 

My daughter does not have ASD.  She has an attention disorder.  Not on the spectrum, not the same thing.  Not even close.

The Positive Side of the LABEL ADHD

"Think of an absentminded professor who can find a cure for cancer but not his glasses in the mess on his desk. These are the inventors, creators, poets -- the people who think creative thoughts because they don't think like everyone else." Martha Denckla, M.D., Director of the Department of Developmental Cognitive Neurology at the Kennedy-Drieger Institute at John Hopkins

"There are many positives with ADD, including a surplus of ideas, creativity, excitement, and interest which accompany this kind of mind."  Sari Solden, Women with Attention Deficit Disorder

"More and more, the concept of ADD as a disorder is being qualified by inclusion of a string of positive qualities -- such as creativity, high intelligence, ability to do many things at once, an aptitude for small business entrepreneurship, and a powerful intuitive sense."  Susan Burgess, Think Fast! The ADD Experience

The Wildest Colts make the Best Horses

This FORM of the LABEL ADHD appears to be an innate alternative wiring of the brain. This wiring often confers a cognitive advantage IMO.

What a tragedy to put this bright child on a mind dulling deadly drug. But that is what our society is OFTEN doing. IMO some mothers need to see some bloody knuckles. Theirs!

Edited by Louisw - 9/11/12 at 9:47am

[melissa17s]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

Sorry, ADHD as defined by the DSM is not a medical condition. It has no biological test to diagnose it. Neither is depression or dyslexia. They are not like epilepsy, diabetes, cancer etc. You go to a doctor like a neurologist, psychologist or a psychiatrist, not for a blood test or some other biological test, but a diagnosis from a menu of human behaviors decided by a group of psychiatrists and published in a book. This has been admitted by the the doctor that headed up the project to write the DSM - IV, Dr Allen Frances. Here is what he told journalist Gary Greenberg, in the Wired article Inside the Battle to Define Mental Illness, “There is no definition of a mental disorder.  It’s bullshit.*  I mean, you just can’t define it.”

The DSM is a pharma tool devised by pharma shills to sell a whole boat load of toxic drugs. It starts an ADHD diagnosis and a prescription for stimulant medication, such as Ritalin an amphetamine-like drug which causes crashes which is then labeled clinical depression, so Prozac, Paxil or Zoloft is prescribed which causes highs followed by crashes, so the psychiatrist then diagnoses bipolar and prescribes Risperdal, Valproate or Lithium. These are all hardcore drugs which have side effects, that cause permanent brain changes, numerous health problems and even death. 

Do we really want this for our children? 

* Mods am I allowed to use that word?

There are varying points of view on semantics it is clear.  For instance, according to NAMI, "Mental illnesses are medical conditions that disrupt a person's thinking, feeling, mood, ability to relate to others and daily functioning. Just as diabetes is a disorder of the pancreas, mental illnesses are medical conditions that often result in a diminished capacity for coping with the ordinary demands of life."  http://www.nami.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Inform_Yourself/About_Mental_Illness/About_Mental_Illness.htm

In addition, according to the NIMH site, which was previously brought up by Louisw, "Through research, we know that mental disorders are brain disorders. Evidence shows that they can be related to changes in the anatomy, physiology, and chemistry of the nervous system. When the brain cannot effectively coordinate the billions of cells in the body, the results can affect many aspects of life."  http://nimh.nih.gov/educational-resources/brain-basics/brain-basics.shtml

Why would I want ADHD to be a medical condition?  So my child can get appropriate treatment and services when we go to doctors, school, and utilize our health insurance. Without health insurance, we cannot afford to work with his psychologist for therapy.  We can not afford OT to work with him on handwriting.   By minimizing it back to mental as something different from medical, it removes choices in treatment and does a disservice to those with the various array of different medical conditions.  

By the way, there is no blood test for epilepsy (it is a disorder unlike cancer which is a disease).  Mizram you accept it as medical- hmm.  Although they do blood tests after seizures, it is to rule out other causes besides a seizure disorder.  The most common tool for diagnosing besides talking with doctors about episodes is to have an eeg.   I did mention in a much earlier post that in fact, eegs can also be used as a diagnostic tool for adhd; granted this is newer practice, but if someone wanted to get more conclusive "evidence".  It is also good to test for more than just adhd because many ailments have similar outward symptoms and to avoid misdx- it really should be done.  

On a biological testing note- this is an aside-, my ds had a near death experience this summer when his appendix ruptured (probably for days before the dr.s caught it).  This is generally dx by blood test showing elevated white blood cell count, vomiting and pain in abdominal area.  He never had an elevated or low white blood cell count and was not vomiting.  We were told when we took him into the er that he was healthy, but maybe dehydrated. They sent us home without catching it. When we took him to the clinic the next day, they also said his blood was healthy... but could not explain the very high fever and inability to walk.  He had to have a ct scan to dx.  Even after surgery, his blood cell count stayed in the normal range.  Even as a measure of health,  biological testing do not always catch biological illness.  

Louisw- you state, "Often what happens is the TEACHER, Principal or School Nurse, who cannot make ANY Mental Health Disorder diagnosis,  says to the poor parent "Your child has ADHD and WE think he should start taking Ritalin."  This is actually illegal and grounds for taking the school to court and charges can be brought up against the party illegally prescribing drugs.  I know it happens occasionally, but there is a recourse.  

 

[TCMoulton]

Originally Posted by Louisw 



What a tragedy to put this bright child on a mind dulling deadly drug. But that is what our society is OFTEN doing. IMO some mothers need to see some bloody knuckles. Theirs!

IMO parents who do it have a child on the spectrum should NOT be judging or giving opinions on how those who do should be raising their child.

[cyclamen]

Originally Posted by catnip 

For me, a "label" of ADHD is preferable to the labels that I might have worn 50 years ago: lazy, airheaded, flighty, disobedient, willful, stupid, unmotivated, absentminded, and weak-willed. I love having access to the experiences of people who face the same challenges I do.

Coming back to this thread late but I cannot agree with this more.   I can't say it enough times: getting labeled probably saved my life.  I wanted to kill myself for years because I thought I was all of those things plus a few more like irresponsible and selfish.  My mom thought ADHD was a fake diagnosis when the school approached her about having my brother screened.  I can understand her rejecting medication and it is a problem if the school presented medication as the only option (likely, it was the 90s - but just as likely, they didn't because she never took him to be screened as far as I know  OK that was 20 years ago so: he remembers being diagnosed (he thinks by the school?) but my mom did think it was "not real" - she said he was just being a normal kid, and I sympathize with her position - and to be medicated she would have had to take him to a dr, so she didn't do that, and he wasn't medicated - but the school wanted her to.  We both remember her being upset about that.  He is not sure if he received other interventions but thinks it is likely because he remembers learning how to organize himself and remains fastidiously devoted to his organizational scheme to this day.  When he was a kid, he used to freak out if I moved anything in his room.  He is the most organized person in our family and the only one whose bed was never covered in books or garbage.  And he is a super minimalist.  So he has developed his own ways of coping. 

And melissa17s points out all the ways that having a medicalized ADHD label is useful for accessing services.

All in all, I find the label more useful than not useful. 

Cyclamen, I find what you are saying about service/labor jobs really interesting, because it is very similar to my experience. Jobs I've had in the restaurant and customer service industries were much easier and more satisfying to me than the last outside-the-home job I had, which managing an office that scheduled life insurance physicals. I do SO much better at things that have a solid, achievable goal. 

Yeah, for years I felt like a failure, and I felt "lazy" because of the jobs I preferred to hold.  But now I look at it like you wrote - I prefer things with a solid achievable goal.  I prefer to be able literally see what work I am doing and not imagine it.

edited for details

Edited by cyclamen - 9/11/12 at 4:39pm

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by cyclamen 

I guess the part I take issue with is the "preventable" part.  I don't need to be cured.  There is nothing wrong with me.  I'm different.  

The thing with ADHD and autism is they are both disorders with both mild and severe manifestations.

My son probably has mild ADHD, as do I, and I would not change it for the world.  There are some challenges, but some gifts, to mild ADHD as well.

For some people ADHD is quite debilitating.

Autism is even more extreme.

Some people with autism grow up to have children, jobs, etc.

Many don't.  My nephews have classical autism - they will never live alone, one is a flight risk, one is very aggressive.  Both are in diapers as they enter their teens, and neither has any communication.  The nephew who has temper tantrums/aggression has had 2 serious melt downs in public in the last 6 months - in one the police were called by a passerby.

If I were pregnant now, I would try to prevent both autism and ADHD.  Both can be mild, but both might not be, and can greatly affect quality of life.  Too Russian Roulette-ish for me.

(on nuerodiversity blogs:  I am seriously PO'ed by some neurodiversity blogs.  Ok - you are fine, you don't need curing, you do not think it needs preventing……but you do not speak for everyone, and particularly those who have or live with severe autism.  It is really narcissistic to think "I am ok with my autism, therefore everybody else should be with theirs"   I think neurodiversity has done some good work on acceptance, but deciding what works for you is what everyone else should do, takes it too far )

Edited by kathymuggle - 9/12/12 at 7:47am

[cyclamen]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

The thing with ADHD and autism is they are both disorders with both mild and severe manifestations.

My son probably has mild ADHD, as do I, and I would not change it for the world.  There are some challenges, but some gifts, to mild ADHD as well.

For some people ADHD is quite debilitating.

Autism is even more extreme.

Some people with autism grow up to have children, jobs, etc.

Many don't.  My nephews have classical autism - they will never live alone, one is a flight risk, one is very aggressive.  Both are in diapers as they enter their teens, and neither has any communication.  The nephew who has temper tantrums/aggression has had 2 serious melt downs in public in the last 6 months - in one the police were called by a passerby.

If I were pregnant now, I would try to prevent both autism and ADHD.  Both can be mild, but both might not be, and can greatly affect quality of life.  Too Russian Roulette-ish for me.

(on nuerodiversity blogs:  I am seriously PO'ed by some neurodiversity blogs.  Ok - you are fine, you don't need curing, you do not think it needs preventing……but you do not speak for everyone, and particularly those who have or live with severe autism.  It is really narcissistic to think "I am ok with my autism, therefore everybody else should be with theirs"   I think neurodiversity has done some good work on acceptance, but deciding what works for you is what everyone else should do, takes it too far )

Kathy, I think you are right, the neurodiversity idea is good for increasing acceptance, but at the same time, people have to live in this world, and another important factor in improving people's quality of life is providing access to (hopefully better and better) interventions.  I don't think acceptance means saying, "Ok now live with it and don't try to make your life better."  I brought up neurodiversity not because I agree with everything in that position but because it was the first place where I encountered the idea that it might be ok to be different and that what was going on with my mind wasn't necessarily a disorder, but a case of trying to fit a square peg into every round hole in the world.

As to whether people should try to prevent, I'm sorry that I gave the impression that my experience or thoughts should stand for anyone else's.  They don't.  If someone else feels strongly that they should try to do what they can to prevent ADHD (I won't talk about autism because I know nothing about it) in their child, then I support that fully.  But for me, no, I am not thinking about how to prevent it because I just don't know if I believe that if you do all the right things your kid will be protected* and how much energy do I have?  And from what?  I have had a pretty rough time in my younger years due to a confluence of uncontrolled ADHD symptoms, having been abused for having those symptoms, and not having any sense that I could be a normal person.  Eliminating the idea that I was disordered while simultaneously receiving interventions freed me from living in squalor, from feeling like I "had" to be a sex worker (a job I did not particularly enjoy) because I couldn't hold down any other kind of job (or rather the kinds of jobs that I was told I was supposed to have), from constantly losing things and being crippled by anxiety because of it, fined because of it, etc, from debilitating social anxiety, from getting into bar fights constantly, from feeling like I couldn't control my emotions, from wanting to kill myself because I couldn't seem to change myself no matter how hard I tried.  To the life I live now where I have several jobs I enjoy, where my home is tidy, where I can have friends and I don't feel controlled by my temper or my emotions, where I don't think about killing myself all the time, where I am able to be a good mom to my daughter and provide her with a safe healthy environment. 

From my perspective, the most important thing to protect my kids from is being abused (by me) and from me telling them that they should be like "everyone else" or else they are broken.  I can only worry about so much and a lot of my energy is currently devoted to finding out how to better live with my ADHD and other issues so I can be a stable healthy parent for my kids and not continue the cycle I grew up in. 

*and I'm not saying that is your position... yours seems like..."If this could help, why not do it" and that seems sensible to me

The way that Louisw is currently presenting his information about .... ADHD preventions?.... gives me pause because of the 'hit the panic button' way that it is expressed.... makes me wonder if it would for some person drown out the information that there are already working interventions for ADHD that can dramatically improve a person's quality of life.  And that would really concern me because all I can think of is some poor kid being told they are broken and having that deeply and negatively impact their quality of life.  This is obviously a trigger for me and my response is about my experiences more than anything else.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by cyclamen 

As to whether people should try to prevent, I'm sorry that I gave the impression that my experience or thoughts should stand for anyone else's.  They don't. 

I am not sure you did give that impression.  I am touchy on the subject.  Apology accepted - but you did not do anything wrong.

Edited by kathymuggle - 9/12/12 at 2:35pm

[bec]

Originally Posted by Louisw 

The Positive Side of the LABEL ADHD

"Think of an absentminded professor who can find a cure for cancer but not his glasses in the mess on his desk. These are the inventors, creators, poets -- the people who think creative thoughts because they don't think like everyone else." Martha Denckla, M.D., Director of the Department of Developmental Cognitive Neurology at the Kennedy-Drieger Institute at John Hopkins

"There are many positives with ADD, including a surplus of ideas, creativity, excitement, and interest which accompany this kind of mind."  Sari Solden, Women with Attention Deficit Disorder

"More and more, the concept of ADD as a disorder is being qualified by inclusion of a string of positive qualities -- such as creativity, high intelligence, ability to do many things at once, an aptitude for small business entrepreneurship, and a powerful intuitive sense."  Susan Burgess, Think Fast! The ADD Experience

The Wildest Colts make the Best Horses

This FORM of the LABEL ADHD appears to be an innate alternative wiring of the brain. This wiring often confers a cognitive advantage IMO.

What a tragedy to put this bright child on a mind dulling deadly drug. But that is what our society is OFTEN doing. IMO some mothers need to see some bloody knuckles. Theirs!

I'm so glad that you have judged me for medicating my child.  For getting her the help she needs so she can FUNCTION in this world!  I'm so glad that you are able to judge my parenting to suggest with all manner of quotes that I am lazy and really just trying to dull her mind.  Thanks for that.  I'm glad that you have been here for the many years that we have been struggling with this, and are able to classify the past year as her being subjugated to make life easier for me.  I'm so glad that you have corrected my perception that my daughter is FINALLY able to interact with the world.  FINALLY able to succeed in school, and FINALLY able to let the world see the brilliance that I have seen all along in her.  Thanks for all of that.  Everything is so much clearer.

I'm done with this thread. 

[Louisw]

ADHD Ritalin Kids Truth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=58cOG9z3XkE&t=7m10s

When we make up our list of all the different conditions that fall under the LABEL of ADHD we will find IMO very few are worth the risk of drugs not designed for the condition.
 

[Louisw]

Originally Posted by bec 

I'm so glad that you have judged me for medicating my child. 

I do not judge anyone. You are attempting to do the best you are able. That is all you can do.

[melissa17s]

I saw this article about stigmas, and I think it is a good one.    Treatment of any condition should not be made by a generalization, but on an individual basis.  Here many of us are speaking for our children, and trying to make sure that they as individuals get their needs met.   

[kathymuggle]

melissa17 - I think it is possible to discuss the fact that certain drugs are over and misused in N. America, while also allowing that individual parents get to weigh medication and decide if it is a good treatment for their child.

[savithny]

The more I dig into my family history, collect stories from older relatives about THEIR older relatives, the more I believe that ADHD has always been with us, and it's effects are exacerbated by modern lifestyle. (I blelive the same thing of sensory issues, too).

You can go back generations in my family, to before thimerosol containing vaccines, to before coal burning plants and their mercury fallout, and you can see the signs of ADHD, of sensory disorders. The great great grandfathers who kept doing outdoor work long after their sons had taken over the hard stuff, the great great uncle whose constant schemes for different businesses drove his mother to distraction, the great grandmother who could never get all the parts of a meal on the table at the same time so that dessert was often the casserole side dish which was good because the pies often had not been sugared....

But between the constant flow of information being thrown at us, the speed we are expected to work at, the sleep deprivation we all labor under, and the electric lights that throw our whole clock out of whack? Things are worse. Add in a lack of regular exercise or heavy work and the pressure to sit still and be still and not move all day at our school and jobs? It is a recipe for making something that has aways existed into something pathological. I don't think it is coincidental that many strategies for handling sensory issues, for example, come down to having your child do things that a 19th or early 20th century child would just do as part of life, things like heavy work, or whole body movement.

We are all eager to say that things in pregnancy or birth are "variations of normal.". I think my uncle's brain, my grandma's brain, all their ancestors brains? Variations of normal.

And in birth, some of those variations of normal, under certain conditions, can become dangerous or disablng. Many here believe that some of those "certain conditions" arise from modern life -- managed second stages of labor, the urge to pull on breech babies, the idea that birthing women should be medicated and flat on their backs. Is it so inconceivable that maybe some of the conditions of modern life, with their changed expectations of behavior and changed lifestyles for all of us, might be a driving force behind the numbers of people who find their ADHD or sensory issues have risen to the level of disability

[catnip]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

melissa17 - I think it is possible to discuss the fact that certain drugs are over and misused in N. America, while also allowing that individual parents get to weigh medication and decide if it is a good treatment for their child.

I don't think anyone here is saying that medication is necessary or appropriate for every child or adult with ADHD.

I, however, am objecting to people, especially those with no personal experience with ADHD, saying that it is never appropriate, especially when it is delivered with an attitude of condescension and judgement, and without any interest in a dialogue.

For me, medication caused as many problems as it solved. I've known people whose life may have been saved by meds.

I don't know anyone, anywhere that would seriously consider medicating a kid for normal childish behavior, but, as the article that Melissa linked says, people often have that perception. It's not unusual to think "hey, I lose my keys sometimes, I get distracted, but I function just fine without drugs!" That's because many ADHD behaviors are normal ones, only magnified to the point o being debilitating.

The only times that I was 'zombie' like on medication were those days that I accidentally got a double dose of my meds. A child who is on a well-managed regimen of treatment should seem normal, not like a zombie!

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by catnip 



I, however, am objecting to people, especially those with no personal experience with ADHD, saying that it is never appropriate, especially when it is delivered with an attitude of condescension and judgement, and without any interest in a dialogue.
 

Agreed.

[Louisw]

What is ADHD?

My intent in starting this thread was to list all the members of the ADHD Phenomena Set because ADHD is a LABEL for a SET which clearly consists of MANY members

I will list my members below with a brief description. If you disagree in any way or wish to add members please do so.

Members of the ADHD Phenomena Set

1 A brain "rewired" from conception. There is no damage to the brain. These children often have some problems in the classroom because they process information differently. Probably because they process information differently they often have great insights and can be high IQ.

2 A brain "rewired" from injury. There is damage to the brain, often from "vaccination" or trauma; stroke is an example of this type of injury. In children some problems in the classroom are often exhibited because they process information differently because they are FORCED to.

3 A high spirited or "disruptive" child. There is no damage to the brain. These children often have problems in the classroom basically because they require more attention than the average child gets in a classroom..

Edited by Louisw - 9/19/12 at 12:35pm