What about teenagers who would drop out of school, by choice or just because they want the money, if they weren't left with enough hours in the day to have a job? Many areas have time cutoffs for teenagers who work, I want to say when I was in high school I had to be clocked out by 8.
What about teenagers who would drop out of school, by choice or just because they want the money, if they weren't left with enough hours in the day to have a job? Many areas have time cutoffs for teenagers who work, I want to say when I was in high school I had to be clocked out by 8.
It is a valid point.
No system is going to meet everyones needs (unless they have both early and late start times in a school - which would be very cool, but a bussing nightmare). The goal is to do what is best for the majority of teens.
I have not seen any studies against late start times, and plenty for late start time.
What about teenagers who would drop out of school, by choice or just because they want the money, if they weren't left with enough hours in the day to have a job? Many areas have time cutoffs for teenagers who work, I want to say when I was in high school I had to be clocked out by 8.
Over the age of 16, the cutoff time in my state is 11pm. I googled "how late can teens work by state" after looking at 10 states the consensus seems to be at least 10pm- but it is also frequently limited by 4 hour shifts. Even if they are in school until 4 or 5, they should be able to make it to work by 6pm.
Over the age of 16, the cutoff time in my state is 11pm. I googled "how late can teens work by state" after looking at 10 states the consensus seems to be at least 10pm- but it is also frequently limited by 4 hour shifts. Even if they are in school until 4 or 5, they should be able to make it to work by 6pm.
I see what you're saying but they also have homework and should be able to spend at least a little time with their families and doing other things. Also, what if they need or think they need to work full time? They would be at school or working nonstop until late at night every day, leading to kids wanting to drop out instead. It would still be the same number of hours (20 during the week and 20 on the weekends) but I just don't think many teenagers would be willing to be in school until 5 then work until 10 followed by homework and whatever else they need to do. Many teenagers are, however, willing to be in school until 2 then work until 7. It's unlikely many teenagers would be able to find work for a few hours early every weekday morning to make up for the lost time in the evening.
I think schools will start offering more online classes. Kids could be in school for a few hours a day or just a couple days a week and be able to better make their own schedules the way they do in college.
I think schools will start offering more online classes. Kids could be in school for a few hours a day or just a couple days a week and be able to better make their own schedules the way they do in college.
^ This I agree with. I hate when I hear of students (it mostly happens with seniors) who have multiple study halls and almost no "real" classes every day. With schools as strapped for cash as they are, why not let these kids take their courses at home online, figure out something for gym, and just stay at home(A friend of mine's son is only taking English, Mythology, gym, and a film class where you watch movies all year, the rest are study halls and lunch)? It would free up space for younger students and I imagine save the district some money.
I think schools will start offering more online classes. Kids could be in school for a few hours a day or just a couple days a week and be able to better make their own schedules the way they do in college.
You might be surprised at how much is already offered. A large percentage of districts and high schools offer an independent study program including virtual schools that can be done full-time or do in conjunction with traditional school. Those aren't charters. Those are standard public schools. Then, there are countless charters that offer hybrids and virtual schools. My own daughter attends a high school/college hybrid. She goes to school about 23 hours a week as opposed to the 35 hours she was going at her last school and she's getting duel credit (both high school and college) for her classes. My middle schooler is allowed to do all his math virtually so that he can work at his own accelerated pace.
It's already in practice but it's also not for every student. There can be issues with virtual schooling but that's a different conversation.
My high school had the option to sign up for late arrival (basically, your first period was a blank spot and you showed up at the beginning of second period) and early release (same at the end of the day) that juniors and seniors could sign up for. No bus service was available. I think the supposition was that people who signed up for that could either walk or drive. I guess if your junior or senior really had problems getting up early you could sign them up for late arrival provided they could get themselves to school and it was worth missing the extra elective (and unless you were taking 7 classes you'd have a study hall at some point, so this basically replaced a study hall).
I had to laugh about 'teachers couldn't hold their attention for two hours.' It's not particularly effective or pedagogically sound to lecture to anyone, adult or child, for two hours. And I don't see why reading or writing in school means students can't also do more of the same at home. These skills are infinitely improvable.
About the timing of the school day - the school I teach in starts at 7:15. Students come from all over our large city to attend, sometimes taking several buses and/or trains each way. One of the reasons for this is the continued tracking of urban public school systems, which ensures that many neighborhood high schools are dismal, dangerous and hopeless places. Students and their families, AND teachers, will do a lot to avoid such hellholes, including taking on a bit of sleep deprivation. I feel sad when kids show complete exhaustion.
This is a big problem and just one of a number, in our educational system.
Elus, great explanation of the bussing difficulties. We are so glad that we are homeschooling, not only because of early start times since that was only a tiny part of our decision. As a matter of fact, I didn't realize the benefits until we'd been home for over a year. My husband works second shift, so there are several things that are much better now. For one thing, we're able to see Daddy more often, he helps with our schooling or chores. We've moved our whole family's schedule back two hours.
I agree with StartSchoolL8r that " This is actually a longstanding, controversial, & frustrating national issue, and one that local groups have tried to resolve, mainly unsuccessfully, since the 1990s." I can remember reading something like one of John Taylor Gatto's books that points out how unnatural and counterproductive it can be to have so much of children's time spent away from home. It certainly cuts into family time. I love the "heating the school" comparison! Thank you for the links, too.
The public and private schools here start around 8:30. The private school moved their time earlier by almost an hour. Maybe it was because so many had children in both systems. THAT seems early enough to me! Our systems used to start at about 9 am.
Part of the trouble either way is the traffic jam – even in small towns – when the start times are all the same. The fact that our schools have consolidated is not a help either. There used to be a school in each of several little towns, now the students all go to one school. A much higher percentage of children used to be able to walk to school.
I would recommend you to watch the movies that might explain WHY is it done that way
because it is not about busses, it is not about technicalities.. there is another agenda in all this..
movies you can watch on Netflix or Youtube:.. all about untold ugly truths about american education system:
"War on Kids"
"Waiting for Superman" (nothing to do with Superman, all about schools)
"The Cartel' (yes also about schools)
and.. of course all time classics:
"Race to Nowhere"
you may gain huge knowledge and not necessarely solution
but at least you will know more about how things are done.
Btw.. it was interesting as someone once told me that someone else was trying to solve the apparent "we need
to get the kids at this and this time to school because the buses are needed for other levels thing.."
Some parent suggested to give parents flexible starting time as in - those who need to drop of kids
and like to drop off kids or those who need busses might do so at ungodly hours of 6am or whatever
and let the kids to do some research work at the library or get them some BS class in the morning
to keep them busy and for those who wants to start their kids as biology requires at 8 or so
would bring their offspring accordingly.
It is when you find a really good solution and easy solution then you see that it
is not at all about buses or logistics, it is just NO because NO.
That is why so many parents are indeed homeschooling at HS level. no violence at schools, no bus issues,
no other problems.. and at home a kid can stay by himself and do online classes.
I have met so many parents that were like.. we so love it. and the kids do so much better on
standarized tests because they can learn at home online at their pace and not go to all kinds
of nonsense classes with teachers who do not teach. it is in many cases waste of time.
That is why so many parents are indeed homeschooling at HS level. no violence at schools, no bus issues,
no other problems.. and at home a kid can stay by himself and do online classes.
I have met so many parents that were like.. we so love it. and the kids do so much better on
standarized tests because they can learn at home online at their pace and not go to all kinds
of nonsense classes with teachers who do not teach. it is in many cases waste of time.
And I've met lots of other parents like us, who used to homeschool and now have their kids in Jr. High or High School -- because their kids do so much better with the energy of the whole class rather than slogging through the material alone. Because they learn more easily with qualified teachers who are passionate about their subjects. Because their kids were lonely and wanted out of solitary. I know several former homeschoolers who quite after years of trying to help their kids make solid social connects and ended up realizing it's much easier to make friends if you are where their are other people, and you are working on things with them.
And I kinda hate how everything turns into a homeschooling debate on mothering. It's gets old. It's nice it's working for you. It doesn't work for ALL kids. It's not perfect. Actually, sometimes it's pretty screwed up.
That is why so many parents are indeed homeschooling at HS level. no violence at schools, no bus issues,
no other problems.. and at home a kid can stay by himself and do online classes.
I have met so many parents that were like.. we so love it. and the kids do so much better on
standarized tests because they can learn at home online at their pace and not go to all kinds
of nonsense classes with teachers who do not teach. it is in many cases waste of time.
Huh... Neither of my kids took nonsense classes in HS. Nor did they have teachers who did not teach. Please don't malign all of the good and dedicated teachers to promote your own agenda.
And I kinda hate how everything turns into a homeschooling debate on mothering. It's gets old. It's nice it's working for you. It doesn't work for ALL kids.
I agree.
None-the-less, I think HSing is somewhat relevant here, and this is why:
If the evidence weighs heavily in favour of late start times, and schools decide to implement later start time, being flexible around such things as cyber schooling would be one solution. School could run from 9-4, with the option of cyber schooling the last class if you want to. Alternately, they could start early, but kids could cyber school the first class. While our school board allows cyber schooling on paper, the reality is it is set up in such a way that it is quite difficult to access. Schedules tend to rotate, which means you cannot always start late or finnish early, moreover, you need the schools permission to take a cyber-class - and they do not give it out easily. Offering genuine options around cyber school/traditional school hybrids would be helpful for some kids, particularly those adversely affected by early or late start times.
I think discussions of HSing and traditional schooling can be very polarising. It does not have to exclusively be one or the other for everybody.
While I disagree with Mamaprincess on her off-topic anti-school rant, I think she is onto something with regards to why they have not gone to late start time. All the evidence I have seen (as in studies - not opinions) seem to say that late start times are better for teens. And yet, we persist in teens starting school at 7:00 a.m. School boards are putting other priorities over the needs of its high school students in this regard. Please note I am saying school boards - not teachers. I do no think it always comes down to budget or technicalities (items they could and should creatively problems solve around). I do think it sometimes comes down to maintaining the status quo as it is easier.
Back in the Dark Ages when I was in high school, it started at 8:30. Actually all my schools started at 8:30 and got out at 3:30 except for my one year of middle school, 8th grade, which started at 8am.
Here and now, my dd2's elementary school starts at 7:50am w/ early drop off at 7:30 and goes until 2:30. Our local middle schools start at 8:20 and go to 3:10 and high schools go from 8:45 to 3:50.
My dd2 goes to a charter middle/high school that starts at 8:30 and dismisses at 3:30.
We are all night owls and late risers, so the elementary school start time is hard enough for us. I can't imagine some of the times y'all are talking about. 8:30 works for me, but there have definitely been times when I thought 9:30 might be nice. The schools here do have a 2 hr delay as teacher work period once each month and we love the late days.
I haven't heard anyone complain about the start times except other late risers like me who complain about the early elementary school times.
My kids just started in public schools this year in 5th grade (Middle School here) and 2nd grade. We had homeschooled up until our move here. The early start times have been a huge adjustment. When we homeschooled, my kids slept until they woke up. One child has a steady body clock and was up by 8:00 every day. The other child fluctuated between 8:30 and 10:00 wake-up. I do see that as a huge benefit of homeschooling. My kids were usually well-rested and had plenty of energy throughout the day.
Now they both get up at 6:50. Middle School starts at 7:25 and Elementary School starts at 8:00. The High School has the latest start time of 8:25. At the Elementary School, the kids are expected to take their AR (Accelerated Reader) quizzes before school starts. They also have one day for each grade to walk or run on the track. We leave at 7:10 to drive the carpool.
Both kids have dark circles under their eyes by late afternoon. My never-ever-nap kid conks out on the couch several evenings a week. My kids *love* school, but the early start time definitely takes its toll. We're still working on an earlier bedtime, but it's difficult after so many years of following my night-owl schedule.
So far we've made it 1 1/2 months into the school year without any illness. I hope that we can keep that streak going. I can see that a lack of sleep could certainly lead to greater risk of illness.
On the positive side, the early start times get the kids out of school earlier. This makes it easier for me to fill my violin/viola studio and still spend some time with my own kids.
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