Please tell me what you know about emancipation

[VocalMinority]

We've expected DSS's Mom to push for reversing the custody change by next summer, when he turns 14.  At that age, our state law says his opinion about where he wants to live "carries more weight".  If you've read my previous posts, you know that I have a lot of angst about what DSS will say to a judge - and whether he'll mean it - and how torn he must feel, to be put in the position of choosing between his parents, something he has insisted since he was 5 that he does not want to do.  

However, the child's wishes - age 14 or not - are only one of a list of criteria the Court's required to consider, in determining "best interest".  With the ways Mom has continued to ignore court orders, chosen not to visit DSS, etc., we've really wondered how she hoped to convince a judge DSS should move back, even if he says he wants to - and how easy (or hard) it would be for her to get an attorney to argue that for her.

Now there are indications her plan is to "help" DSS file for emancipation so he can go live with her, without a judge finding that to be in his best interest.  In her state, 14 is also the "magic age" when kids are old enough to file for emancipation.  DSS will be in her state the day - or very shortly after the day - he turns 14.  Surely, our state would still have jurisdiction, but she has a history of filing petitions in one jurisdiction that would countermand standing orders from another jurisdiction.  You'd be surprised.  Sometimes it has taken the courts a while to catch up and my husband has been wrongly denied access to his son, in the interim.

Anyway, I realize for kids to gain emancipation they generally have to prove it's in their best interest and that they have some way of supporting themselves.  Mom gives DSS an outlandish monthly allowance, but he certainly earns no money on his own.  Would that matter, if he tells a judge his plan is to go live with her and have her support him?

If DH were to oppose such a petition and say emancipation is NOT in DSS's best interest (which it is definitely not), how big a fight would there be?  Would DSS have to claim we were abusing him somehow, to win a contested emancipation?

Is it reasonable to think a judge would see this for what it is:  Mom's attempt to side-step the effort of requesting a custody modification?

How often do kids as young as 14 actually get emancipated?  It must be an awfully rare American child who can support himself at 14.

[aricha]

From what I can find out about emancipation in CA, it doesn't sound like a likely possibility... particularly since he would (theoretically) be doing it to live WITH a parent, not APART from her, and since his custodial parent does not agree to it. 

"If you want to be declared emancipated by a judge, you must convince the judge that you meet ALL of the following requirements:

• You are at least 14 years old.
• You willingly want to live separate and apart from your parents with the consent or acquiescence of your parents. (Your parents do not object to you living apart from them.)
• You can manage your own finances.
• You have a source of income that does not come from any illegal activity.
• Emancipation would not be contrary to your best interests; it is good for you."

http://www.saccourt.ca.gov/family/emancipation.aspx

While I certainly wouldn't put anything past her, particularly since she believes what she wants to believe is true regardless of evidence to the contrary, I think this is one concern I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about.

[VocalMinority]

Originally Posted by aricha 

From what I can find out about emancipation in CA, it doesn't sound like a likely possibility... particularly since he would (theoretically) be doing it to live WITH a parent, not APART from her, and since his custodial parent does not agree to it. 

"If you want to be declared emancipated by a judge, you must convince the judge that you meet ALL of the following requirements:

• You are at least 14 years old.
• You willingly want to live separate and apart from your parents with the consent or acquiescence of your parents. (Your parents do not object to you living apart from them.)
• You can manage your own finances.
• You have a source of income that does not come from any illegal activity.
• Emancipation would not be contrary to your best interests; it is good for you."

http://www.saccourt.ca.gov/family/emancipation.aspx

While I certainly wouldn't put anything past her, particularly since she believes what she wants to believe is true regardless of evidence to the contrary, I think this is one concern I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about.

Thanks.  I will simply be so glad when this is finally over.  It all seems so excruciatingly slow.

[greenemami]

OMG!!! Seriously?  From what the PP posted, it does not look like there is any chance she could prove that-like you said, he will be living wth his mom, has no financial income, etc., besides the fact that it is obviously not in his best interest AND mom has a history of parental alienation...this is one thing I would try not to drive yourself crazy over.  I'm sorry this is dragging out and stressing everyone out, I wish there was something to do to preempt mom's filing for custody, but it doesn't seem like there is.... :(

[Linda on the move]

I think this exist for kids who are living away from their parents while attending highschool. I've read that California has a oddly high number of underage highschool students whose parents live in other countries.
 

The problem could be if he files and you guys don't know about it. How do you protest something if you don't know when it is happening?

Can you talk openly with him about this? Does he have access to a phone that he can call you from at all times when he is with her? Poor kid. It just sounds stressful for him.

I've never heard of any one under 16 being emancipated, and even then it was fairly extreme circumstances. In general, I believe judges dislike it when people try to bend the law to go against something another judge has ruled.

[Smithie]

I agree that emancipation is not in your DSS' best interests whatsoever, and that it's unethical for his mother to be attempting it as a work-around to requesting a custody modification. I also agree that it's not likely to be granted, as he basically would meet NONE of the criteria for emancipation in CA other than being 14.

But. I've said it before and I'll say it again, and please forgive me for saying it - your DSS was taken away from his mother when he was four years old, against his will. She was not abusive or neglectful to him in any way that a young child is capable of recognizing (though he might realize now that she that the parental alienation was a form of abuse). He's going to want to go back to her. He had no control over what happened when he was four, and if he perceives that his father and you are trying make him equally powerless at age 14, that is going to cause long-term damage to your relationship. 

It's really too bad that his mom is so. messed. up., to the point where you have legitimate concerns about his safety if he goes to live with her. But other than presenting your concerns to the court, and highlighting how he has thrived in your home, I don't think there's anything you can or should do. What he says to the judge is his business. 

This must be so stressful for you. Hopefully in adulthood, your DSS will be able to appreciate how powerless YOU felt at this stage and will reassure you that you did a good job parenting him anyway!

[VocalMinority]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

...The problem could be if he files and you guys don't know about it. How do you protest something if you don't know when it is happening?  This is a good point.  Mom's signature move has been to file things without notifying DH.  (She once got a temporary restraining order, blocking all contact between DSS and him, pending the results of a protective order hearing.  She claimed to have served DH notice, but he only found out about it after traveling across the country to visit DSS, going to his school to eat lunch with him, and being warned to leave the premises immediately or they'd call police.  The principal gave him a copy of the TRO, which was the only reason he knew the date of the PO hearing and was able to show up and contest it.)  

On one hand, Mom might be able to convince a judge in her state that DSS only needs her agreement, to become emancipated.  There is an old court order saying she has sole legal and physical custody.  Since all their orders are from our state, if no one told a judge in her state that there are more recent orders, he/she might not investigate further.  DSS also has on-file a recently-issued state i.d. card, saying he's a resident of Mom's state and lives at her address.  (She got that by convincing the DMV she has sole custody, so DH's signature wasn't necessary on the i.d. card application form...)

On the other hand, if somehow she did get him emancipated in her state without DH's knowledge - and then had him make "his own" decision to live with her - obviously, we'd eventually figure out something was amiss, when he didn't come home after the visit.  It might be a pain, but surely DH would win an appeal or strike of such an underhanded move.  I'm sure PPs are right, that emancipation should worry me less than a second, big custody modification trial.

Can you talk openly with him about this? Does he have access to a phone that he can call you from at all times when he is with her?  Yes and no.  

He has every ability to stay in contact with us, but doesn't, when he's with Mom.  He responds to a fraction of DH's calls and texts and even then he hardly says anything.  He communicates with my older sons a bit, but has nothing to do with me, around Mom.  When she wants him to keep secrets from us, I am quite sure he does.  

In general, he's just a mess about this.  At present, he doesn't seem stressed or depressed or anything.  But he appears to tell Mom whatever she wants to hear, then tells us the exact opposite.  We like to think he tells us his true feelings, since we don't pressure him to say one thing or the other.  But it's probably more realistic to think he's so accustomed to going to one extreme to comfort/please his mother, that when he wants to be loving toward us, he instinctively goes to the opposite extreme.  

For example, when he returned from Mom's at the end of this summer, he spoke as though it's a given that he'll be living and going to school where she lives, by next year.  He made it sound like that's the last thing in the world he wants, but what can he do?  Now, a month into school, scarcely a day passes without him pointedly telling me something he's excited about for next year, when he'll be going to the same school as my older sons.  I resist annoying him by turning every little comment he makes into some major psychological discussion.  But seriously:  has he changed his ideas - or desires - about how things will go?  Is he trying to put the legal battle out of his mind and focus on the day-to-day reality here (where people take for granted that everyone in his class will move on to one of the local Catholic high schools)?  Or is he trying to make me happy while he can, because he still believes he'll be gone next year and he knows I'll be sad?  Who the H*** knows?  I doubt he knows.

We do talk with him.  

- We've explained that emancipation is unlikely.  

- We've assured him that, if Mom asks for custody, his stated preference would not be the only deciding factor, so if he truly would prefer to live with her, it's OK for him to say that.  We won't stop loving him and it's not his fault that his parents live so far apart that he can't just say he'd like equal time with both.  He has had to deal with his parents' problems, his whole life.  We are adult enough to deal with hearing what he really thinks.  And wherever he ends up living, it will still be a judge's decision.  Moving away from us - or remaining away from Mom - will not be a direct result of him saying he wanted to live one place or the other.  

- We've also told him if he really would prefer to live here - like he tells us - that he should consider telling Mom that.  It seems nice to tell her what she wants to hear, but she's also making a lot of decisions (continuing to look for jobs and sign leases out there and spending a lot of time away from him) based on her belief that he's as gung-ho about moving back as she is.  If she knew that weren't true, she might make different choices, like looking for a job here.  (DH suspects - and I think he might be right - that DSS would never tell Mom this, for fear she would either cut him off, as she has cut off others who disappointed her; or that she would openly choose California over him.  In truth, that's what she has actually done, the last four and a half years.  But at least this shared mission of having him move back when he turns 14 makes it seem otherwise - that she is "holding his place" there, not choosing to live there in spite of the fact that he lives here.)

Anyway, none of it seems to have any effect.  DSS still tells us that the only thing he'll ever say in court is that he doesn't want to choose.  He knows we think that's the healthiest thing he could say.  He still promises his Mom he will help her do whatever it takes, to move him back where she lives.  They still exchange symbols and code-words and pinkie-swears about it.  This is why he just should not be involved in any of the decision-making.  But he'll be 14, he's smart, well-spoken and in the right circumstances he can come across as remarkably mature.  Most of the "evidence" of how he's been manipulated and what a roller-coaster he's on, as far as what he wants, would not be admissible in court.  A judge - a stranger - will not understand why this particular kid ought to have less of a voice in his own custody case than other 14-year-olds might have.

Poor kid. It just sounds stressful for him.  Yes.  It sucks.

Edited by VocalMinority - 9/12/12 at 9:04am

[Mummoth]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move 

The problem could be if he files and you guys don't know about it. How do you protest something if you don't know when it is happening?

You make it your business to know. You call the clerk at the court house and tell them you have reason to believe your ex/child may be trying to get an order without you having been properly notified. You tell them your kid's name and they do a search and will tell you the date and time if something is happening. I had to do this once because my ex sent me a letter by regular mail that looked like he'd put it through the washing machine first. He was just trying to get out of paying child support though.

Edited to add: there must be something you can do to get that ID card revoked. Report it to the police, maybe?

[VocalMinority]

Originally Posted by Smithie 

...But. I've said it before and I'll say it again, and please forgive me for saying it - your DSS was taken away from his mother when he was four years old, against his will. She was not abusive or neglectful to him in any way that a young child is capable of recognizing (though he might realize now that she that the parental alienation was a form of abuse). He's going to want to go back to her. He had no control over what happened when he was four, and if he perceives that his father and you are trying make him equally powerless at age 14, that is going to cause long-term damage to your relationship. 

It's really too bad that his mom is so. messed. up., to the point where you have legitimate concerns about his safety if he goes to live with her. But other than presenting your concerns to the court, and highlighting how he has thrived in your home, I don't think there's anything you can or should do. What he says to the judge is his business. 

This must be so stressful for you. Hopefully in adulthood, your DSS will be able to appreciate how powerless YOU felt at this stage and will reassure you that you did a good job parenting him anyway!

Thank you.  Most of what you say is true.  There has been nothing like this custody case to give me perspective that sometimes I just have to do everything I can think of to do, and accept that certain things are out of my hands;  to distinguish feeling disappointed from feeling guilty or disappointed in myself.  Still, until this latest (and presumably last) step is over, I'm sure I'll keep exploring ideas and questions (and venting!) in this forum.

Just a little correction (not to be argumentative, just accurate):  DSS was eight when he came to live with us.  When he was four, both parents lived here and had nearly 50-50 custody.  Mom didn't move out of state until a couple weeks before his seventh birthday.  That doesn't fundamentally change what you're saying, but as the parent of a current 4-year-old, I think there's a difference between imagining a kid his age being moved away from Mommy (and Mommy not following him!!!) and the same thing going on, with a kid twice his age.

[Smithie]

DSS still tells us that the only thing he'll ever say in court is that he doesn't want to choose.  He knows we think that's the healthiest thing he could say.  He still promises his Mom he will help her do whatever it takes, to move him back where she lives.  They still exchange symbols and code-words and pinkie-swears about it.  This is why he just should not be involved in any of the decision-making.  But he'll be 14, he's smart, well-spoken and in the right circumstances he can come across as remarkably mature.  Most of the "evidence" of how he's been manipulated and what a roller-coaster he's on, as far as what he wants, would not be admissible in court.  A judge - a stranger - will not understand why this particular kid ought to have less of a voice in his own custody case than other 14-year-olds might have.

You think he's tell you what you want to hear, and Mom what she wants to hear. Well, no kidding - both you guys and his mother have extreme power over him, and appeasing you is an appropriate adaptive response to a situation where he knows that you (all three of you) strongly desire a particular outcome that may not be what he desires for his own life. Why on earth should that make him less deserving of having a voice in his own custody issues? It's about darn time he had a voice. 

I know you have the best of intentions, but the way your thinking is going is really alarming to me. 

[Smithie]

Oh, crap. EIGHT?!? You must be one heck of a great stepmom to have achieved the relationship with him that you have. I hope you know how much he loves and needs you. 

I'm currently fostering an 8-year-old. He was taken in much different circumstances and may never go back, but if he'd been taken from a non-abusive home? Sheesh. I don't know how he could ever resign himself to being here. 

[Mummoth]

I don't think that you mean he should have less of a voice in court. You just understand that the court won't have the time or resources to figure out what is truly going on in his mind. What he says he wants might not really be what he's reasoned through and felt for himself, because he's been manipulated on such a grand scale. It'd be like taking the word of someone with Stockholm syndrome. If he had the opportunity to make his decision without all the strings attached, and speak from his heart about what he truly wants, that would be different. That won't happen in a court room.

[Smithie]

That's a much more reasonable interpretation of that remark, Mummoth. Thanks. As we all know from previous threads, VocalMinority's DSS and his no-win situation really sets me on edge. I need to give her all the benefit of the doubt that she's earned from her years of dealing as reasonably as possible with an unreasonable set of circumstances.

[VocalMinority]

Thank you again.

Perhaps I phrased that poorly.  Of course I (we, DH and I) care what DSS wants.  And he should be entitled to stand up and have a judge hear his preference, if he wishes to broadcast it.  But under the circumstances, I don't think his opinion should be a major factor in the final decision, nor should he believe that is (either because he initiated an emancipation request, nor because Mom assures him a judge will base custody on what DSS wants).

1- As Mummoth said, it's hard for those closest to DSS - and for DSS himself - to distinguish his own wishes from what he feels obligated to say, to please the adults in his life (even those of us who aren't trying to make him feel obligated).  A judge may fail to see/understand this and might think DSS seems mature and clear-headed about what he wants.  DSS could wind up in an extremely unhappy, unhealthy situation, because when given the chance to say what he wanted, all he could think about was how to make his neediest parent happy.  The pressure-cooker DSS finds himself in makes him a good advocate for his mother, but (IMO) a worse advocate for himself than other 14-year-olds might be.

2- He has had a voice.  Since age five, he's had three custody evaluations/updates by the same top-notch child psychologist/attorney and has been seen/followed, at various times, by a guardian ad litem, a court-appointed counselor and two psychiatrists.  Each was charged, in part, with letting DSS express his wishes and communicating them to the court, without DSS having to appear and feel like he personally made a decision, or gave testimony, that broke one of his parent's hearts.  He consistently said he wanted equal time with both parents; that he would like living with either one; and that if someone had to choose, he wanted it to be a judge, not him.  When he was eight, he basically told the custody evaluator staying in CA would be nice in terms of being with Mom, but he really wouldn't like it because he'd miss his Dad and everyone he loved here; and he'd really like to live here with DH, but if he did move back, he'd like Mom to move back, too.  

In his convoluted, 8-year-old way, he DID say something completely reasonable, respectable and mature:  It's my parents' mess.  Don't make me feel responsible.  I want my Mom in my life, but I'd rather not have to give up everybody and everything else I love, to have that.  Couldn't she move?  To me, all this crap (pushing him to either get emancipated and move to CA, or testify which parent he wants to have custody) isn't about giving him a voice.  It's about dismissing what he's said and telling him to have new wishes, that work better for everyone else:  "Well, your Mom doesn't want to move and we can't make her.  So humor us and pretend you DO want to choose between your parents.  Which one do you pick?  After all, we CAN make YOU move."

3- Older kids' wishes are "given more weight" because they're better-able to discern what's in their best interest than younger kids.  By the same token, there's a list of other things the Court must consider, because even older kids don't always assess their own needs as well as an adult can; and some older kids do it better than others.  If I recall correctly, our state guidelines give the example of a teenage boy with a promising athletic future, whose divorced parents can't decide where he should live.  They live in the same town, so he'll see plenty of both of them, regardless who has custody.  The boy wants to live primarily with Dad, because Dad is more reliable about getting him to his daily, early-morning practices.  Obviously, another teenage boy who wants to move in with his dad because Dad lets him slack off on homework, skip school, and buys him pot is less capable of making decisions in his own best interest.  That kid's wishes should be heard, but certainly shouldn't be "controlling".

DSS enters high school next year and has not experienced spending school nights at his Mom's since third grade.  It's one thing for him to spend vacation times:

- Sharing a one-bedroom apartment and a bed with her (I shudder to think how her long-term boyfriend fit into that scenario);

- Dealing with her smoking (he's asthmatic), plus her more worrisome personal habits;

- Being alone a lot while she works or attends work-related social events in the evenings;

- Eating poorly, participating in no sports or activities and gaining alarming amounts of weight;

- Having little or no support in completing school work (he does summer reading at her place);

- Being indoctrinated to think his Dad is bad and he shouldn't want a relationship with him and

- Filling the role of Mom's soul mate and "best friend"; being responsible for her happiness and emotional health. 

Since third grade, DSS has gotten all of that in brief spurts.  If he would choose all those things as his full-time reality, then he is not making decisions in his own best interest; he's prioritizing his mother's wishes - or how much he misses her - over the many other things he needs.

Edited by VocalMinority - 9/12/12 at 8:51pm

[VocalMinority]

As an aside, Smithie, I am impressed by your foster parenting.  I cannot conceive of caring for multiple children - no doubt with intense emotional needs - and having to detach and give them up, if they are reunited with parents who have not taken good care of them.  Yet, what a need there is for it!  I'm glad you can find the strength.

[Smithie]

You and me both, VM. I am not really a "God person" in the sense of thinking that God is a discrete entity who orders the stars in their courses and is responsible for shaping my personality, but seeing myself, my husband and my biokids handle being a foster family so well makes me feel as though we've been gifted with a weird set of traits that allow us to thrive in a very emotionally challenging situation, and wouldn't be good for much else beyond fostering. 

Of course, if I ever have to give a child back into a really bad situation I'll probably lose my mind. When I start to overthink scenarios with my current foster son, whose mom could give your son's mom a run for her money in the manipulation department, I definitely can make myself agitated and edgy.

I started doing hot yoga. I recommend it. I can't control what the courts do, but I CAN learn to balance on one foot and wear myself out so that I don't wake up at 4 a.m. to have an anxiety attack :-)

Oh, and... THEY SLEEP IN THE SAME BED? I hope he decides to mention THAT to the judge, whatever else he says. Because WOW. 

[grisandole]

I hope it goes well. I would absolutely check the courts in her county to see if she/they have filed; hopefully this info is available online. Aside from that, there isn't much you can do, sadly. I'm going through a somewhat similar thing with DH's son, also 14, and the court gave his "voice" far more weight than I thought it would, I was shocked (and his voice is mostly just mimicking his mother, and is the example of the latter teen in the CA law example). It sounds like in your case, unlike ours, there is at least a long history of evaluations and such so that the judge has something to go on, rather than it being a he said/she said. 

[aricha]

Reading this information (a manual written for teens looking to be emancipate) from the CA court system, it seems incredibly unlikely that a judge would grant it. From the reading, it doesn't sound like not being a child's legal guardian matters at all regarding whether or not a child has to notify their parents about emancipation. there would have to be an incredible amount of very blatant lying... and as soon as you found out, your husband could request that the emancipation be reversed, which would be incredibly likely if the entire petition was based on lies. 

http://www.lsc-sf.org/wp-content/uploads/emancipation_manual.pdf

Also regarding not being notified, most (all?) California courts have online access to look up court cases. If there is already a case number, you can search by that, but many (all?) of them allow you to search by name. 

Go here:

http://www.courts.ca.gov/selfhelp-selfhelpcenters.htm
 

Choose the court that it would be filed in, then look for a link to "online services" or something similar. That should let you search. It would give you anything that is public record, so there should at least be a notation for documents filed with the court. Emancipation is filed by the child, so it would be under his name.

[VocalMinority]

That's really sweet of you, to look up and posts those links for me, Aricha.

Reading through the pamphlet is certainly encouraging.  I had assumed, if DSS were somehow able to get emancipated in CA, DH would be able to overturn it eventually.  I mean, bottom line, I assume it would violate jurisdiction if he filed anything outside our state, since he doesn't spend enough time in CA to establish residency.  However, if the CA courts expect that level of detail and pre-established independence, it sounds impossible for DSS to get very far with emancipation there, even if he and Mom did try a fraudulent filing.

I do periodically check the court web site where DSS's mom lives, for new filings, just to see if there's been another protective order request or something we need to deal with.  However, I don't think they post juvenile cases (adult cases regarding a juvenile, but not cases where the juvenile is a litigant).  So I wouldn't have expected to find it easily, if DSS filed something there.

However, I am feeling better about it.  I really, really hate the chess-game aspect of all this and feeling like we need to "watch our backs".  Our family simply doesn't live like that, with regard to anything but the issue of DSS's mother.  And DSS needs some certainty about his life, so he can focus more on his education, sports and social life, like a normal self-centered teen, with less distraction over this contentious upcoming performance that's expected of him.  YET, we are certainly better-prepared and DH is on higher ground, legally, than when Mom had custody...and even back then, he managed to make the right thing happen in court.  This is nerve-wracking, but far from hopeless.