Breastfeeding crisis...at major risk.. HELP! - Page 2

[tropicana]

Originally Posted by Blessed_Mom 

Err... what I think of 6 letdowns..may not be letdowns but 'bursts' of active sucking and longish pauses in between 

Not caucasian at all.

Weight - won't know for a while... today...was a bit better in the morning. Sucked and swallowed well.... since evening he has turned a bit 'sluggish' (can I write that?) again. But so far better than yesterday...hopefully he will have some good feedings in the night too .....

night time is your BEST time for the BEST milk. do you cosleep?

regardless, be willing to nurse him on cue overnight, even if it limits your sleep...

[Viola]

Even if you're getting fewer noticeable letdowns, it could just be a result of supply regulating, and he can be getting just as many or more calories in a couple letdowns.  I could generally feel letdown, but then sometimes they take a break from active sucking, so I just tried to pay attention to periods of active swallowing and periods of inactivity.  But I would even stop noticing that, and my daughter would appear to be done and didn't seem to need to nurse again for a long time, which was worrisome to me, but her gains and milestones were always fine, and I started recording every time she came to the breast, and I realized it was a lot more than I previously thought.  I felt like my first baby nursed all the time.

[Blessed_Mom]

We don't go more than 3 hours front-to-front without letting him nurse and no..sleep is not a priority right now. Do not co-sleep because we cosleep with our daughter and am afraid to cosleep with baby right now.... we wnat to get our daughter a bed and transition her over the next 3 months and cosleep with baby then. 

I have a weird problem going on. my guy seems the sleepiest in the afternoon hours... in the night he feeds pretty well.... and goes on until next day afternoon..then it starts tapering off (how much he eats) because he sleeps after 1-3 bursts/letdowns. This goes on and he wakes up sometimes every hour.. gets on ...feeds for 1-2 letdowns and sleeps.. no emptying breasts... and so on.. until 8 PM when he has been ON me almost constantly and my breasts start feeling soft and between 8-9 he starts pulling at them and they feel empty , he acts frustrated and obviously he isn't getting much because he has caused them to go pretty much dry from being constantly on...and around 9 I have broken down and given him formula (1 - 1.5 ounce). He then sleeps for 2 hours and I sleep and then I have a good regular supply.. he latches on and goes to 5 bursts/letdowns and we do well over the night (since my breasts are getting drained)

I don't know how to get out of this vicious cycle. I cannot avoid giving him that one feed of formula because he is going berserk and not letting my breasts replenish for the night - otherwise....

I wish i could explain that better.... but can anyone help me?

[seraf]

That really sounds normal to me. We had a similar pattern but skipped the formula. Our babies nursed a lot more in the evenings for short periods, got frustrated at the climax of the evening and then fell asleep for real. I just kept switching sides. Drink more water when you can think of it and maybe even have a snack. It's just a fussy time of the evening, if your guy is anything like mine.

[treehugz]

Originally Posted by Blessed_Mom 

Not caucasian at all.

Lol, it was just a thought since he sounds similarly sleepy like my son who was definitely "wimpy" when it came to staying awake and feeding for the first couple weeks... I'm not sure of the comparison for other races, except that African American girls are supposed to do the best when born early, to the point that some people theorize that their gestational age is actually less than 40 weeks anyway.  But I digress... I just find baby development fascinating. :)

Originally Posted by Blessed_Mom 

We don't go more than 3 hours front-to-front without letting him nurse and no..sleep is not a priority right now. Do not co-sleep because we cosleep with our daughter and am afraid to cosleep with baby right now.... we wnat to get our daughter a bed and transition her over the next 3 months and cosleep with baby then. 

I have a weird problem going on. my guy seems the sleepiest in the afternoon hours... in the night he feeds pretty well.... and goes on until next day afternoon..then it starts tapering off (how much he eats) because he sleeps after 1-3 bursts/letdowns. This goes on and he wakes up sometimes every hour.. gets on ...feeds for 1-2 letdowns and sleeps.. no emptying breasts... and so on.. until 8 PM when he has been ON me almost constantly and my breasts start feeling soft and between 8-9 he starts pulling at them and they feel empty , he acts frustrated and obviously he isn't getting much because he has caused them to go pretty much dry from being constantly on...and around 9 I have broken down and given him formula (1 - 1.5 ounce). He then sleeps for 2 hours and I sleep and then I have a good regular supply.. he latches on and goes to 5 bursts/letdowns and we do well over the night (since my breasts are getting drained)

I don't know how to get out of this vicious cycle. I cannot avoid giving him that one feed of formula because he is going berserk and not letting my breasts replenish for the night - otherwise....

I wish i could explain that better.... but can anyone help me?

That's great that he's feeding well overnight... definitely make the most of it if you can stay awake or find a way to cosleep.  Sounds like he's demanding more and trying to cluster feed to tank up in the evening before bedtime.  I remember reading that milk is being produced all the time, so the breast is never really empty... Here's a quote from kellymom: 

"Trying to completely empty a breast is like trying to empty a river — it’s impossible, since more milk will keep flowing in while milk is being removed. Research also tells us that the emptier the breast, the faster the breast makes milk. So when baby removes a large percentage of milk from the breast, milk production will speed up in response."

http://kellymom.com/bf/got-milk/basics/milkproduction-faq/

And the more he sucks, the more milk you will make, so supplementing with formula is going to be counterproductive in the long run.  If he needs more milk in the evening, you definitely don't want to give your breasts the message to make LESS milk in the evening by supplementing,  A quote about cluster feeding:

"Cluster feedings do not mean that you have a low milk supply! Supplementing baby with formula will cause your body to produce less milk. Continuing with the cluster feeding will make sure your body is making just the right amount of milk for baby."

http://www.breastfeeding-problems.com/cluster-feedings.html

Here's some good info from kellymom about cluster feeding in the evening and why you should not supplement during that time: 

http://kellymom.com/parenting/parenting-faq/fussy-evening/

[Blessed_Mom]

Originally Posted by seraf 

That really sounds normal to me. We had a similar pattern but skipped the formula. Our babies nursed a lot more in the evenings for short periods, got frustrated at the climax of the evening and then fell asleep for real. I just kept switching sides. Drink more water when you can think of it and maybe even have a snack. It's just a fussy time of the evening, if your guy is anything like mine.

...the only difference being - he isn't sleeping but keeping on with the short bursts of feeding - drinks for 1 letdown..sleeps...gets up in 45 mins..drinks for 1-2 letdowns...sleeps... until around 8-9 he cannot sleep and is very fussy and impatient and acts hungry and my breasts 'clearly' aren't responding/letting_down fast enough.

Now - I don't know how to satiate him and make him sleep for 2 hours (which I desperately need too..to start my next day..which starts AFTER the 2 hour sleep... around midnight). When I give him the formula (my only time of the day)...he sleeps...lets me rest..I replenish and sleep (important) and wake up around midnight with replenished breasts again.

How do I get him to sleep without the formula? Especially if he is clearly not full and clearly hungry?

[Blessed_Mom]

Thank you tree_hugz...but how do I get out of the cluster feeding cycle enough to let me rest for the 2 hours to start my next day? Am so confused about that. And my son is sooo impatient and starts to root at first and then actually cry....don't know what to do... he clearly acts like he is hungry and not getting enough (by the end of the cluster feeding session..around 9 PM )

Some things are just driving me nuts this time around. So different from my daughter...is like am a breast feeding newbie.

I have another Q for all of you: 

The way my feedings go is - he starts at my breast. In 30 secs to 1 min a letdown starts (first and fast flowing). He takes 20-30 swallows. Rests/pauses for 1-3 mins. Second burst..again about 20 swallows. Pauses for 3-5 mins. (when he is sleepy..he usually sleeps around this point.. or if I can keep him awake..then)....after 3-5 mins..3rd burst...and then after 5 mins...4th burst..

and some times (not always)..after 5-10 mins.. 5th burst. Total session = 25-20 mins. Active suckling ...maybe 8-10 mins.

My sister who has a 2 month old says that that isnot how her bfing sessions go. Her son latches on......she has one letdown.........and he feeds CONTINUALLY for 7-10 mins. Big pause. About 2-5 mins... and second letdown and another continuous feed for 5-10 mins. STOP

So active suckling = 15-20 mins. Total session = 20-25 mins. She only has a 5 min break.

I feel that my guy is spending more time with the pauses and that is probably because my breasts take longer breaks in between. He clearly does try (although sometimes it seems like he is nibbling...sometimes...working) ...so I think that something is wrong with me and it is making my guy spend/expend more energy suckling THAN the milk he is getting. maybe that explains all the poor weight gain despite seemingly getting enough milk.

Only one or two times a day (in the night)...he seems to drink rather continuously....maybe because my breasts have just replenished themselves and thus provide him faster/easier letdowns and he cannot help but drink the milk spurting in his mouth (rather than have to work)

Is someting broken with me? How can I fix it? Powerful galactagogues like Domperidone? I am already taking fenugreek, goat's rue, shatavari ,blessed thistle and oatmeal. OR - oxytocin sprays??? I heard they make for faster letdowns!

[Blessed_Mom]

I read both the cluster feeding links. YES that is my baby. Except how do I make him go to sleep for 2 hours EVEN when he is acting hungry and dissatisfied and crying? If I do not ..my breasts will never get a chance to replenish!

...AND another thing to add to the list of things I have done wrong already (in my son's 3 week life). Supplement at the peak of the cluster feeds. 

At the same time.. how do I cope tonight? Kellymom says that yes milk flow is slower in the evenings for some women. That is me. Son is not satisfied..That is me too :-(

[seraf]

Second babies may just be hard.

I had the same troubles in the evening except I struggled with oversupply. That's why I think it's just a hard time to be a baby.

In the evening put a big pitcher of water by your nursing spot and drink a tall glass every time he nurses. When you can't take it anymore, ask your partner to take him for a walk around the neighborhood in the sling. Most likely he will go right to sleep. If he's still hungry when he gets home, nurse him again. If he's sleeping when he gets home, smile.

In the grand scheme of things, one ounce a day is hardly anything. You're doing great.

[Blessed_Mom]

Remember I wrote - if it is not one thing it is another? 

Last 24 hours bear testimony to this fact! 

At the risk of making this about 'me me me' I am still going to write down every problem of mine here. If nothing it will serve as a log...at best I can get some ideas (and I have gotten ideas and encouragement aplenty here...thank you!)

So remember the cluster-feeding that went on for 3 days? Well ...he kicked up my breasts into a temporary oversupply and forceful letdown. During those cluster-feed days during the nights (after the restful sleep) my breasts were kind of having forceful letdowns..he seemed to choke a couple of times...draw back once or twice...but seemed ok. I was hoping it would settle down..but

...my guy has his own ideas. Since the last 24 hours (since yesterday afternoon ) he has started clamping down on my breast during breastfeeding and acting 'afraid of a letdown'. Basically he is employing weak sucks and sleeping after a couple of letdowns - and leaving my breasts half-full - again!!!! His poops (which were aplenty have gone down a bit. Earlier he was having one every BF session..now every other).

I mean- without question- he is half-feeding and very gingerly at that. Spilling the first few sips into a wash-cloth - no help. I would have to pretty much dribble my whole first letdown into a washcloth to let it abate and remember - he is an impatient guy and anyway.. I don't think I have an oversupply - just an overactive letdown.

Dunno what to do.............waiting to ride this out too .

Wonder when all these teething problem will resolve and we can have a consistent BF relationship :(

[seraf]

On the bright side, your body is doing exactly what it should. He nursed because he needed more, your body made more. Over active letdown is no fun, but if he takes less, your body will get the message soon. Cabbage leaves when you're super full and uncomfortable will help in the meantime.

[MichelleZB]

Originally Posted by Blessed_Mom 

Remember I wrote - if it is not one thing it is another? 

Last 24 hours bear testimony to this fact! 

At the risk of making this about 'me me me' I am still going to write down every problem of mine here. If nothing it will serve as a log...at best I can get some ideas (and I have gotten ideas and encouragement aplenty here...thank you!)

So remember the cluster-feeding that went on for 3 days? Well ...he kicked up my breasts into a temporary oversupply and forceful letdown. During those cluster-feed days during the nights (after the restful sleep) my breasts were kind of having forceful letdowns..he seemed to choke a couple of times...draw back once or twice...but seemed ok. I was hoping it would settle down..but

...my guy has his own ideas. Since the last 24 hours (since yesterday afternoon ) he has started clamping down on my breast during breastfeeding and acting 'afraid of a letdown'. Basically he is employing weak sucks and sleeping after a couple of letdowns - and leaving my breasts half-full - again!!!! His poops (which were aplenty have gone down a bit. Earlier he was having one every BF session..now every other).

I mean- without question- he is half-feeding and very gingerly at that. Spilling the first few sips into a wash-cloth - no help. I would have to pretty much dribble my whole first letdown into a washcloth to let it abate and remember - he is an impatient guy and anyway.. I don't think I have an oversupply - just an overactive letdown.

Dunno what to do.............waiting to ride this out too .

Wonder when all these teething problem will resolve and we can have a consistent BF relationship :(

Look, my newborn son did most of this. There were days where he cluster fed to get my supply up when he was growth spurting. Then there were some days of engorgement and overactive let down after that. He did a little spluttering and choking during those days. Then he'd bite down on the nipple a bit for a few days to keep the spurt down. Then my supply would match his demand for awhile and all would be calm. Then we'd start up the cycle again as he's ramp my supply up again!

Nursing can be an ever-changing phenomenon. No two nursing sessions have to be the same!

Once my son got older, he was better able to deal with my let down. In fact, he now prefers the fast let down. He still won't take a bottle, and never did, because no bottle can give him milk as "fast" as mama can. 

I'm not there and I can't see the extent of your problems. But is it possible you have a non-problem problem? Perhaps your son is nursing normally--for him--and it's just other people (doctors, LCs) who have a problem with it? Babies do poop less frequently as they get older, so that may not be any indication of bad feeding, either.

[Blessed_Mom]

I do wish I had a non-problem . The way I see it.. so far I have had problems that seemed huge (to the extent that I thought that that was the end of my BF relationship- truly) and had them resolved either with the help of a LC or by themselves. I think any one of them individually could have been seen as just a teething problem but in my case , by sheer bad luck, they came in hordes --- to compound themselves as a bigger whole.

I think what made this worse is that he is a screamer - the most impatient guy ever. Goes from sleeping to screaming in under a minute. My daughter was so low needs that I never even heard her coo until 4 months...and this one throws me all in a tizzy with his crying.

My daughter was induced at 35.5 weeks and I was asked to formula supplement heavily. Not knowing any better I did and hence never had these teething problems (the unbearable 3rd day agony of waiting for my milk to come in, having to establish exclusive milk supply..cluster feeding etc.). It is only when she was spitting up heavily and showed dairy allergy that I first joined mothering and started researching..whereas before that I was ignorant and mainstream about quite a few things (formula, vaccines etc.)

Anyway - since the past two days we are seeing the round ring of red dots around his anus - I guess that means dairy allergy? My daughter has it... I prayed I would dodge this with him...going to his ped today....

[seraf]

How old is he? Way young for teeth, right?  I have heard that it's common for babes to chomp when overwhelmed by milk.  

I have been dealing with dairy problems as well.  I have come to realize that the problem is my own, so any baby I nurse reacts as though they are having a milk allergy.  Just a thought for you, that it may be your own dairy issue causing issues in the babies.

[Sol_y_Paz]

Originally Posted by Blessed_Mom 

I read both the cluster feeding links. YES that is my baby.  If I do not ..my breasts will never get a chance to replenish!

This might help with thoughts on needing to fill back up. At least it did with me to help me feel better when my baby is non stop.

http://thefunnyshapedwoman.blogspot.com/2011/01/breasts-feeling-full-good-thing-myth.html

[rtjunker]

Some of the behavior you've described sounds similar to how my 9 month old DD acts at times. She would go through cycles of feeding so much in the evenings, I'd be stuck on the couch for hours. This usually happens before a growth spurt, or big milestone. She gets frantic and scratches and pinches at my boobs, which seems to indicate she's over tired or over stimulated, quiet dark spaces help sooth her to sleep. She's always been a frequent eater, far more often than every 3 hours. I figure breastfeeding is not going to be super easy all the time, but most of the problems can be dealt with in some way. The biggest problem I see is that you LO is not gaining well, the solution is feeding more often, whether formula or breastmilk. If you really need some rest supplementing with formula occasionally might give you the sanity you need, but doing so regularly will effect supply, and could interfer with your future bfing relationship.