Open to adopting this unborn to another mama/family...what is possible? - Page 2

[sesa70]

I just wanted to share with you me experiences with open adoption. I know every situation is different as is every birth parent, adoptive parent, and agency. From an agency perspective, open adoption can range from phone calls and letters to in person visits. The agency we used had a more open policy than most, and the average level of connection between birth and adoptive families is 3-5 in person visits per year with letters and possibly phone calls between. Does this sound like the level of contact you are hoping for in a potential family?

I think that you have gotten lots of good opinions here, but please keep in mind how emotional adoption can be for everyone involved. I have experience as an adoptive mother as well as something of an adopted adult, and not as a birth mother so I can't speak from that part of the triad. No one can say if this is the right path for you or your unborn child, but I agree with the PP who suggested you wait until you are further along to make any decisions. If you are curious what sorts of adoptive parents are out there, you can start looking on sites like parent profiles or even local agencies will often have waiting families on their websites. 

 

[newsolarmomma2]

As an adoptee, all I can think about if what it was like to meet (and get to know) my first mom, and my four siblings, who are all still together and happy. Talk about tough! After the excitement of meeting them and knowing they are there and love you wears off, other not so comfortable emotions can emerge. Jealousy is by far the worst. I am so far from a jealous person, but even I am eaten up by seeing their happy family. I am at the point where I almost wish I hadn't found them. Even though they include me and treat me like one of the family, it is obvious that we share only blood, genes, and some mannerisms. It's Not enough.

FWIW, my own family IS happy, and as far as adoption goes, it was a best case scenario. However, theres nothing, nothing, like seeing what was suppose to be your family, without you in it. I feel like I was sacrificed to allow them to have the family they got. My bio moms situation was different, so I know that is an unfair characterization, but I still cant help how I feel. I dont want to resent her, but seeing my siblings relationships is too much. i will never have that with them and it hurts. My first mom was damaged by the adoption as well. It just cuts so deep for all that are involved.

Adoptive parents, like my mom, also live in fear and terror that the original parents will come back and claim their loved one. Even though I met my original family at 30, she still had these feelings and it caused much anger, resentment, and disharmony. These fears of their kid rejecting them for their other family, no matter how unfounded, makes adoptive parents do things you would never expect- like drop out of your (bio mom) life entirely even after agreeing to see you. They will have the right, and often, after a few years of parenting, will use it. At first, all they see is the much wanted baby, so they agree to anything you want. But once that child is theirs in their heart, they can turn on you. (I know not all adoptive parents are like this, but many are and I think it's totally normal to feel this way).

I am in no way against adoption. I do think of it as often the best choice out of a hand of all bad cards. It is not the ideal, and I cannot imagine what that kid would think when they learn the circumstances of their adoption. I know adding a 5th can be overwhelming, but consider what this will do to everyone involved, including you, your hub, your kids, and this new baby, and its new family. In the future, if you dont want to enlarge your family, I would truly consider Essure or Mirena, or other semi to permanent BC- abortion and adoption are both serious and shouldn't be repeatedly done just because you don't like BC. It's just not fair.

Best Luck to you and yours.

(oh, Im an atheist and losing attachment has ZERO to do with my spirituality or atheism in general. The most beautiful things in this life are our loved ones, and loved places.)

[mamatochubchub]

Woe is me!  I just typed a full response and accidentally navigated away from it...I will restart *buckling on belt of determination*

"My understanding is that you and your partner have very deeply held spiritual and philosophical beliefs about the world and your/our place in it. These beliefs sound fairly radical so I hope you will forgive those that don't completely buy into it. There are many extreme philosophies being touted now, more than ever before and those of us that have been in the world a while have also seen them come and go."

Are you referring to climate science as an "extreme philosophy"?  Certainly the fossil fuel industries and their well-paid denialists will agree with you on that.  Yet, are you suggesting I am trying to sell something?  That I am hoping to get anyone to "buy into" something?  Sister, I have nothing to gain by climate change and everything to lose, same as you.

You posted in the Adoptive/Foster Parenting forum. These mamas have a lot of experience with all sides of the triad. They do get how challenging this is, and how challenging the scenario you have laid out would be.

*nod*, that is why I posted here.

"Perhaps not for you. As your post indicates, attachment is not something that you are striving for with your intimates. Perhaps it is even something you are avoiding based on your spiritual path.

However, babies are wired for attachment. Scientifically, all the neuroscience you will read about babies and attachment will point you to the scientific fact that babies do not adjust as easily as you think to your proposed arrangement. And so if you take science seriously, you need to take attachment science seriously, as well as climate science. Don't just take the word of these experienced mamas --do your research."

Here we have some clouds of assumption casting confusing shade on our conversation.   As with many words in our language, the word "attachement" has more than one definition.  Usually, at MDC and such places we're using the word "attachment" when we refer to attachment parenting...the important bond between mother and infant, which, we intend, will be instilled and will grow up with our children...keeping the love and trust alive in them and affirming their own sense of security and well-being.  In the way you are using this word, I will not strive to maintain attachment to this child, if it is being raised by another family.  If an arrangement were to involve a span of time during which I help nourish the baby, there would be more ambiguity here...it would be a dance of attachment which the adoptive mother would be opting to involve me in, and I would gracefully disengage at whichever time was asked of me by the child's mother.  If we raise the child, we will establish an attachment through breastfeeding, co-sleeping, baby-wearing, etc. same as I have with my other children.

There is another use of the word "attachment" in the world of personal growth.  Many different paths, religions, teachers and practicioners/growers use this word to refer to an experience of being psychologically stuck on one story or strategy for how something is or was supposed to work...how one's ex-husband should have behaved...how families are supposed to look...how I'm supposed to appear to others.  The understanding extends further, that these ideas always lead to suffering, because ultimately, all things come to an end, the only constant is change, etc.  It is understood that we experience suffering to the degree by which we maintain "attachment".   

I think if you are not prepared to parent this vulnerable human, created without forethought despite your worldview of impending catastrophe, then you likely should find a great adoption agency and begin pursuing the finding of a compatible minded pre-adoptive family unit as quickly as possible.

For what is may be worth to you, or others reading this thread, we did not create this child in the midst of our understanding of current climate science.  Rather, when I was five or six weeks pregnant, I read Bill McKibben's article http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/global-warmings-terrifying-new-math-20120719 .  That was the first time that I began to grasp the urgent new timelines which are being presented by the climate scientists.  Since that time, my family has been reading everything we can find on the subject, deepening our understanding.  All the while, the debate rolled along about whether or not we "should" abort.  We didn't want an abortion, we didn't feel that we could, with absolute clarity, end the early life of this being who has been so determined to join us, humanity, on this side of physical form.  Our default plan is that we will parent this child, joyfully, as I have said...yet, we feel also that we may be carrying this child for another joyful family, and in that case, it is my duty to seek them out, or at least make it known that this baby is coming...so that the mother or family might seek out us.  

I am very interested to obtain references for "a terrific adoption agency"...that would be helpful...this is the kind of suggestion I'm soliciting by this thread. 

Thanks!

[mamatochubchub]

I can agree with some of what you have said, Alenushka, and other parts of what you write are simply incorrect.  Either way, it is clear to me that you and I have very divergent visions for our world.  Would you like my assumptions and opinions about your personal life?   Would it matter what I think?  No, it wouldn't. 

Can we stick to the subject of the thread, please?

[mamatochubchub]

Alenushka, this is Mamatochubchub's husband. I have been following her conversation with all of you. I am aware that she does not want to have this thread get off-topic, so I am only going to briefly respond to your previous post, because I think that it is important that those who reply to her request for resource suggestions understand our reality, and you make public assumptions about us that obscure the picture. We, too, are taxpayers. We are currently homeowners.

I think that you are believing that because we currently receive some public assistance, that we are irresponsible degenerates abusing the system so as not to work. Actually, we both work, quite hard. Most of our work is done as volunteer service, though I do also have a small health practitioner clinic that generates some income for us.

What we are not committed to, what we don't believe is necessary, is "earning" money. In fact, we believe that "commercial success," as you put it, has just about ruined our planet, not equitably cared for all people, and made the natural human pursuit of wisdom, knowledge, and deep relationships more shallow, by orienting people toward selling each other things, and competing at that enterprise, at the expense of all the experience of wonder and social richness that can be had by collaboration.

You may say: "Food stamps is helping you to buy food, so you use money," and that is true. It is a situation we are actively moving our family away from. We garden (although this year's Midwest drought, in part thanks to climate change, made that very hard to do). We are learning how to hunt. We raise animals for food.  Our goal is to provide for our own sustenance and manage our family's needs without participating in the growing socio-economic inequity, and without contributing to the plunder and destruction of the world.

But, we do work, every day. We don't watch TV. We are currently working on writing a couple of books, and organizing and carrying out our Pacing the Planet campaign, to raise awareness about the very real and present challenge of major climate change. We have decided that this is the biggest service we can do for our fellow humans, and we don't at all feel embarrassed or ashamed that taxpayers should help feed us, so that we can go and give presentations to college campus organizations and the like.  This would seem to be much more worthwhile than taxes paying for us to guard our fossil fuel sources in other countries (through war), or even than our taking foodstamps while we break our backs working for a Dollar General. 

Into this mix has come an unexpected pregnancy, and we welcome this being joyfully into our lives, even though we question God's (or the Universe's) timing, given what we have currently been learning in-depth about the coming climate changes, and given that it is an inconvenient time to re-submerge under the Madonna's Cloak. We are, however, open-minded, considering many possibilities, and one of those possibilities is that this child "belongs" with another family. If that is where we are guided, our family will embrace that with as much emotional strength as we can, knowing that adoption doesn't necessarily mean the child will be stripped of its opportunity to know its biological parents (although that can happen, just as we may also get struck by a bus and wind up dead tomorrow). Guidance would likely come in the form of a family, or parent, who is impassioned by mamatochubchub's suggested relationship between our two families, and who steps forward at this time. We also prepare to expand our family, to take care of this new young one, and continue weaving the intricate tapestry of our lives.
 

(edited by Dana/mamatochubchub to add this commentary:  so much for his writing briefly!  Hmph!  :P )

Edited by mamatochubchub - 9/23/12 at 6:25pm

[MeepyCat]

Hang on a second - your understanding of global warming as a life-threatening issue for your family has arisen only in the last few months?

Did your plan for nomadic living also arise in this time frame?

[Alenushka]

If you were taking global warming seriously, you would not have 5 kids.  I used method of permanent birth control to limit my family to 2 children.  I know that no amount of recycling, biking or gardening will compensate for the resources each of my children will consume.

You can ride all the donkey cart you want , and lecture people with your flowery language as much as your heart desires, but you are not being radically honest. Every child mean more resource being drained and and more fuel consumed and more gases screwing with nature's atmosphere.

If you want to be honest and real, get a vasectomy.

Please , do not full yourself. You perfpm no service to me as a taxpayer. As a taxpayer I am already aware of global warning and take steps every day to reduce it thank to the hard work of actual hard working scientists.

Dollare General. You are getting food stamps and enjoying a luxury of having 4 kids because someone somewhere gets up at 6 am and earns that money for you while helping others. Someone who also volunteers and bikes to work, all without hand outs from the man.

Radical honesty? Start with yourself.

[loveandgarbage]

OP you're getting the short end of the stick in this thread, huh? A lot of what you and your partner have posted resonates with me. I hope you find an adoption situation that you are comfortable with. I think it's possible, if a little difficult, but hopefully doable!

[mommyfriend]

It sounds like you are really hoping for some good advice, maybe some spiritual counsel.  Having such different beliefs, customs and ideas, it might be hard for you to find someone you trust who could give you that advice, and for you to feel their advice really applies to your situation.  On the other hand, you know that all people have many things in common, so you are looking here online for some kind of advice.  I hope you can get some actual, real, in person advice as well!  What about your own mothers?  Is there a psychologist, pastor, or other person who might give you some advice in this situation?  Even if they have different beliefs than you, they might give you some good things to think about. 

My main concern would be, what about your other 4 kids?  Won't it be confusing or even heartbreaking for them to say goodbye to their sibling?  If you try to gloss it over, lie, explain it in a spiritual way, etc., eventually they will still come to the same realization, even if they have to tell one another, in hushed whispers, years later...Mom and Dad gave away our little brother/sister.  The details about possible climate collapse, important work to do, not being that well off...none of that will really matter to them.

It sounds like you have a lot of interesting things you are doing, and I don't doubt you are a very unique, talented person, and a good mother.  But I wonder if you and/or your husband might be partly motivated in this adoption idea by a fear about your own mental health?  Or perhaps a difficulty with mental health is leading you to take a possibility--I agree, climate change is a serious topic--and placing that topic into much too high of a priority in your lives, to the point of a delusion.  Do you have a history of anything like bipolar disorder that is not being treated correctly?  Does your husband fear that you will have severe postpartum depression or another similar issue, and avoids the real subject by discussing global warming and difficult finances?  Sometimes issues like this interfere with a mother's ability to mother.  If so, get help.  Giving up a baby for adoption would not solve a mental health issue.  You still have 4 other wonderful children that need a fully functioning mother and hopefully father also.

I hope you aren't offended by this series of questions.  I just saw some possible red flags in your writings that lead me to question your mental health at this time, and I am guessing that you are a very talented person, very motivated, and very caring, who would want to be sure of her mental health for the sake of her children, rather than give one up for adoption and hope that solves the issue.  Believe me, I am not judging you.  I have walked alongside other women who have had mental health issues, including some who have given up their children voluntarily, or had them taken away.  I hope you would not look back at this time in your life, realize you had been suffering a mental health issue, and been sorry that you lost a child out of that.  Both you and your husband, I hope you both look very carefully at each of your mental health.  You are smart, you will find a way to provide for this baby.  Whether it's working at Dollar General, selling stuff at the farmer's market, opening a home daycare, just being more frugal, whatever.  Best wishes!

[NYCVeg]

OP, I hope you will read newsolarmomma2's post very, very carefully. I am not going to offer any advice, but I do think you come as a bit naive about adoption. I think that it is very important to consider the effects that open adoption might have on this child, who (in your own stated best case scenario) will have to deal with the emotions of seeing the family unit/sibling group from which s/he is excluded. 

[mamatochubchub]

Of course, I am new to adoption..call me naiive, if you will.  That is why I came here for advice.   And many of the ideals and assumptions which others have accused me of making, in this thread, would indicate naivety, if they were accurate.   I got some good BTDT from a few posters for which I am very grateful. 

Alenushka is clearly out-to-lunch with righteous judgment...the comments have no value to the thread, bring up no novel ideas and offer no helpful suggestions.  I am pregnant...not asking for advice about what to do with my reproductive organs.  I am not asking to figure out how I can make as much money as she does. 

I posted here, because in the past...years ago now, I had experienced the forums at Mothering as being a great resource for thinking mothers to share inspiration and experience.  I am experiencing it now like a pit of vipers (again, minus the comments which are truly endeavoring to be helpful). 

 Perhaps it has become too "moderate" a community to be able to reasonably support me in my bold and radical life.  I mean, I have had to beg to be heard here, it feels rather ridiculous!   

I am not a woman that popped out of a cookie cutter, with the same set of motivations and emotions as the ladies in the soap operas.   The posts which are sincerely questioning my mental stability are really blowing my mind.  What is going on?  I must suppose that many people's desperate psychological need to deny the realities of global warming that I have presented, is the cause for their wanting to believe that I am insane. 

Being here, with that energy feels like the ole days of the witch trials...look!  She's different!  She's powerful!  Burn Her!!!

I am going to pack up my bags, taking with me the helpful reflections which *have* been offered to me, and walk away from this "community".

 

[mamatochubchub]

Originally Posted by MeepyCat 

Hang on a second - your understanding of global warming as a life-threatening issue for your family has arisen only in the last few months?

Did your plan for nomadic living also arise in this time frame?

But before I go...I'm hooked by this post from Meepy cat. 

Yes...of course!  That is what I said.  I knew global warming was happening, and it appeared to be happening faster than scientists had been saying in the past (most of my global warming education up until then came from about 2004).  But when I read the McKibben article, I caught up with the science.  At that time, my husband and I realized that we could no longer continue our day-to-day life of extreme green living, homesteading, writing, and community building...that was clearly not enough!  Our habitat is rapidly dying. 

Yes, of course, our Pacing plan arose after that time.  We halted our way of life here, we gifted away all of our heritage poultry (a food source for our family), and began building carts, training donkeys, read voraciously the climate change science, and began Pacing and offering presentations.  If you would truly like to understand more about our timeline or the origins of the project, you can go to our blog...I won't repost the link because trolls will accuse me spamming (as if I'm making a profit here (sheesh)).

Perhaps you might take your tongue out of your cheek.

*curtsy*

[MeepyCat]

My tongue is nowhere near my cheek.  I am not trying to be cute with you.

Pregnancy and mental health are frequently connected.  Post-partum depression gets a lot of press, but there's also pre-partum depression and anxiety, and pregnancy-induced mania.  Among others. 

And you, in the last few months, have gotten pregnant, come to an understanding of global warming that includes an expectation that you will see your children die, and decided that the best bet is to choose deliberate homelessness for yourself and your family, children currently aged 1-10.  With donkey carts.  I don't know why you got rid of the poultry, because the winter you're heavily pregnant is not a great time to move your life into a donkey cart, and that's just one of the many red flags.

Yes!  I'm concerned about your mental stability! This plan is crazy!  And you would be far from the first person I have seen insist, in the middle of a manic episode or other mental health break, that her thought processes are sound and her decision-making is fine, and it's just us fools who don't appreciate her strength and clarity.

I wish you the very, very best, but I do not think you're headed in a positive direction.

[mamatochubchub]

Meepy Cat, you are obviously avoiding reading the current science.  When you do, you will eat your words.
 

[MeepyCat]

As far as I can tell, you have two responses:  Either people understand and appreciate you, in which case they are joining you in the donkey carts; or they're ignoring the scientific literature and they'll regret it soon.

There is a middle ground.

[mamatochubchub]

The true part of what you are ascribing to my words is that the climate science is absolute and dire. 

The strange allegation that I have indicated that all who understand climate science will join our project is unfair and unfounded, functioning only to make me appear wacky, for the careless reader (of which we find many here, it turns out).

You are trying to warp my words in order to make me look like a crazy-head.  Where is your conscience? 

[marsupial-mom]

Wow, this thread got out of control quickly! This is disappointing. I think the moderators haven't done their job in this thread. Anyway, let me try to be helpful.

I'm going to ignore everything that's not directly related to adoption. All that other stuff belongs in another section on this forum, NOT in the Adoptive and Foster Parenting SUPPORT forum.

OK here goes...

Regarding open adoption: you can make an agreement with adoptive parents about visitation or communication but they aren't required by law to honor the agreement. So if you really want that kind of openness, then you may want to choose something other than adoption. Or just choose the adoptive parents wisely and trust them to follow-through. You may also want to research state law and choose to perform the adoption/give birth in a state that offers you the most legal rights.

Regarding breast-feeding: it's uncommon but possible. In fact, I just watched a reality TV show where the bio mom was planning to pump for the baby. I think you just have to work this out with the adoptive parents and be realistic about what you can/will do as well as what is realistic for the adoptive parents to do.

Regarding siblings: the vast majority of adopted children have biological siblings that they have not grown up with. Many have nonbiological siblings. And they're fine. The vast majority of adopted children are happy and healthy. They feel connected to their brothers and sisters including the siblings they grew up with, the siblings they met later in life and learn they're related to by blood, or the siblings they choose themselves (very close friends thought of as brothers or sisters). Family is made by love, not blood.

Regarding your decision: you said "I have more confidence that we can adequately provide for a fifth child than my husband does" and " if the 'right fit' adoptive-family were not to play out, we would accept it as 'a sign' that we are meant to parent this one, also." That sounds like you're not 100% on board with adopting this child out. I highly suggest you research the options and firmly decide on your plan before seeking out adoptive parents. It would not be fair to adoptive parents to lead them on when you're not certain you want to make an adoption plan for this child.

Lastly, remember that you don't have to make this decision during pregnancy. Although many people do the adoption at birth, for you it might make sense to adopt your child out at age 6 months or so. It's up to you; there are lots of options.

[MissLotus]

...Training donkeys?

...?

[elus0814]

This thread caught my eye from the main forum. I don't have any experience with adoption so I don't have any good advice there. I do, however, have experience with people who are manic and I agree with other posters who have indicated that your posts come across as being written by someone experiencing mania. I think you might be someone who tends to get really into something new as soon as they find out about it and that's ok but maybe waiting a few months before deciding to give up your baby or change your life completely would give you time to think more about what you are doing.

I'm not sure if you're going to try to find an adoption agency but I would guess that they're going to see a lot of red flags coming up when you tell them your story. I'm concerned about you other children, not just because they might lose their sibling but because of other lifestyle choices you have mentioned. I'm not sure if they are mandatory reporters or if you are embellishing on your lifestyle when writing these posts but they might send cps out to make sure your kids are ok. If they find donkey carts and you posting things like this online they might declare you unfit and place your child with whomever they please when you give birth. I don't mean to scare you but from what you're describing that might be your reality.

I also agree with one of the previous posts, government assistance is to help those who truly need it. It's not there so people can volunteer rather than work or give away their chickens to be nomads then buy food at the grocery store on the taxpayer's dime. Keep in mind that the people who worked to pay taxes so you can have food stamps have jobs that may be polluting the planet. By getting a job that does not pollute rather than using your time to spread the word about other things you feel strongly about you would be bettering the planet.

One point you make is confusing to me. You say you believe climate change will lead to famine and the like in the next 10-15 years. With that belief logic would follow that you would stay in your house, raise your chickens, and hold down a job in the meantime, keeping your donkeys and carts at the ready. That way you won't have a more difficult lifestyle before need be. 

It sounds like you're getting a lot of replies you don't agree with and are telling those people they are wrong. Please take the time to read them over again, there are many good suggestions. They might appear rude but radical honesty is a two way street.

Edited by elus0814 - 9/24/12 at 10:23am

[here we are]

Hi mamatochubchub. I hope you are ok. I wanted to just say hi, i wrote you last night but it got erased, i am new to learning how to use this furum and computers in general. I am back checking on you just quickly b/c i felt shocked with some of the responses you are recieving. It brings to memory hurtful things i experienced when in a similiar situation that made things hard for me. Not sure if thats the topic of what your asking about, but i am letting you know i have compassion for you and want to be supportive, even if i am.not sure how, or have the time . You sound like a nice person , and i am impressed at your staying so positive! I am familiar with people using donkeys for farming and such and thats great youre doing that, if i am.hearing you right. Just that you make it to read my post to me shows that you have so much courage and strength, b/c you never know whats going to be said to you but you keep coming back. If i were to be seriously considering adoption, i would be interested.in having more conversations with you. In no way do i want to be misleading, iys,just something in the back of, mind, deep in my heart. So i hope you are feeling good, i hope you are not struggling with what youre going thru too much.