Chicken pox down 80% since 2000

[prosciencemum]

Not sure if this got posted here yet. An article from late August in the New York times about the success of the varicella vaccine in significantly reducing the rates of chicken pox in children in the US. I know it's not often dangerous, but I'm still glad to see such a massive reduction in children being sick. 

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/20/chickenpox-down-80-percent-since-2000/

[AmandaT]

What about the rise in shingles that has occurred? 

[emma1325]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

Not sure if this got posted here yet. An article from late August in the New York times about the success of the varicella vaccine in significantly reducing the rates of chicken pox in children in the US. I know it's not often dangerous, but I'm still glad to see such a massive reduction in children being sick. 

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/08/20/chickenpox-down-80-percent-since-2000/

On the surface, less sick kids sounds great.  The concerns I have personally with the vaccine are:

1) It does not induce life long immunity, leaving vaccinated individuals at risk for catching it later in life, when it is more dangerous.

2) It is manufactured using aborted human fetal cell lines, which has never been studied for safety.

3) It leaves the adult population more susceptible to shingles.

4) The safety profile of the vaccine is unknown, since VAERS is so highly flawed.

[eska]

Not only does #1 scare me: no lifelong immunity..so how many times do our kids need to take the vaccine to maintain immunity? I would argue no one knows right now..Partly because #2, we don't really know the safety of this vaccine...it just has not been out long enough to give us the data to find out. This scares me. I'd really want my kids to get the pox when they are young so they can more easily get through it...

[prosciencemum]

The rise in shingles will be temporary if the chicken pox vaccine continues. To get shingles you need to have been exposed to chicken pox virus, and so if the reduction continues in 50 years or very few adults will have been exposed to it. 

Emma1325 - could you provide links to back those "facts"? 

[rachelsmama]

There are too many unknowns for me to get excited about the reduction in the number of sick people.  As far as I can tell, with the massive rise in shingles, the number of sick people hasn't really changed all that much.  What has been achieved is an increase in the market for the chickenpox vaccine, a huge market for the shingles vaccine, and an increase in anti-virals sales (for people who get shingles).
 

[kathymuggle]

I think 50 years is a long time to put up with an increase in shingles over a disease that was not too harmful to begin with.

I am concerned that the decrease in childhood illness may be related to the increase in asthma, allergies and some auto-immune responses.  Nature abhors a vaccum. Early childhood diseases teach the immune system how to behave - aka the hygiene hypothesis.  

I do know such things as over zealous cleaning also relate to the hygiene theory, and that kids are still exposed to some diseases (although I suspect some in favour of vaccination would like to have vaxxes for the common cold - and new diseases are added to the schedule all.the.time) so, yeah, I worry about under-exposure to usually benign childhood illnesses.

An article for those interested in the hygiene theory (not specifically about vaccines):

http://www.aspergillus.org.uk/secure/articles/pdfs2/nri1001-069a.pdf

I understand having a vax for polio, for example, as the serious complication rate is 1/100.  The risks of the disease outweigh concerns around the increase in allergies, asthma, etc.

The same does not hold true for the chicken pox in children (or rubella, rota in the usa, mumps…)

[emmy526]

Chicken pox vaccine associated with shingles epidemic

Quote:

New research published in the International Journal of Toxicology (IJT)by Gary S. Goldman, Ph.D., reveals high rates of shingles (herpes zoster) in Americans since the government's 1995 recommendation that all children receive chicken pox vaccine.

i  couldn't make the font any smaller..it wouldn't let me

[kathymuggle]

Shingles is a much nastier disease than chicken pox.

I read a few overviews of shingles and they all sounded scary.

Here is one:

http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/disease/herpes-zoster/possible-complications.html

I would take chicken pox over an increased risk of shingles any day.

Of course, there is a vaccine for shingles…..(handy, isn't it?)

[prosciencemum]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

Of course, there is a vaccine for shingles…..(handy, isn't it?)

Yes it is. A modern miracle of science. :) 

Chicken pox can have nasty complications in a small fraction of cases. For example: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-18445870

[rnra]

Chicken pox is not always so benign.  I had chicken pox when I was 2 years old.  I acquired it from a sibling who was exposed to it at a friend's house.  We had the healthiest lifestyle you can imagine--tons of fresh air, running around outside all the day, plenty of exercise, whole foods diet, etc.  This was about a decade pre-vaccine.  All of my siblings and cousins did just fine with chicken pox.  I lucked out and had a severe case--literally covered head to toe with barely any regular skin showing.  I was extremely ill, had dangerously high fevers, had to be hospitalized, and I still have many scars.  To make matters worse, I acquired my first case of shingles at age 7.  Diagnosis was slow due to my young age (it just wasn't seen in children at that time).  By the time I was diagnosed I had celllulitis and ended up hospitalized again.  I have since had shingles an additional five times prior to age 25.  To say it's excruciatingly painful is an understatement.  I was a very healthy child who was rarely sick with anything and had a great lifestyle.  However, my body just couldn't deal very well with that virus. I would never want my child to have to go through all that if it could possibly be prevented with a vaccine.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

Chicken pox can have nasty complications in a small fraction of cases. For example: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-18445870

Agreed.  The question is if the the risks of chicken pox are worse than the risks of vaccines (both immediate risk, as well as more long term issues, such as the spike in shingles, if childhood diseases play a role in keeping the immune system healthy, the possibility that the chicken pox vaccine may not be effective long term (as is the case with pertussis) or as effective as natural immunity, in which case the disease burden might switch to adults - who are less equipped to handle chicken pox).

Personally, I believe the evidence is in favour of not mass vaccinating children for CP.   

[prosciencemum]

And I wish I could choose the vaccine for my kids - but it's not currently offered on the NHS. That's actually what drove me to start researching vaccines more (well that and being a natural parenting inclined parent, so often assumed to be anti-vax).  

[emma1325]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

The rise in shingles will be temporary if the chicken pox vaccine continues. To get shingles you need to have been exposed to chicken pox virus, and so if the reduction continues in 50 years or very few adults will have been exposed to it. 

Emma1325 - could you provide links to back those "facts"? 

I called them concerns, but thanks for the sarcastic quotes. If you disagree with my concerns, maybe provide me with some evidence to the contrary?

[prosciencemum]

Originally Posted by emma1325 

I called them concerns, but thanks for the sarcastic quotes. If you disagree with my concerns, maybe provide me with some evidence to the contrary?

Sorry, my mistake. I'll put it a different way. What is the source of your concerns?

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

The rise in shingles will be temporary if the chicken pox vaccine continues. To get shingles you need to have been exposed to chicken pox virus, and so if the reduction continues in 50 years or very few adults will have been exposed to it. 

The chicken pox vaccine actually exposes you to the virus--which means you can still get shingles.  In fact, there has been a rise in PEDIATRIC shingles amongst children who were vaccinated for chicken pox.  Studies on this have been posted many times on MDC. 

So it's incorrect to say that very few adults will have been exposed to chicken pox in 50 years.  They will all have been vaccinated for it, and will have been exposed through vaccination. 

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 


Sorry, my mistake. I'll put it a different way. What is the source of your concerns?

Originally Posted by emmy526 

Chicken pox vaccine associated with shingles epidemic

i  couldn't make the font any smaller..it wouldn't let me

Seems like a pretty good source for concern. And perhaps even "facts."

[prosciencemum]

Bit of an exaggeration though. There's a mild increase in adult shingles linked to the vaccine which has reduced a childhood disease by 80%. You win some you loose some. Not vacciniting your child will not help that at all either, as it's related to the levels of varicella circulating in the population. If most children get the jab this will decline, so the only solution is adult shingles vaccine.

[emma1325]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

Seems like a pretty good source for concern. And perhaps even "facts."

Thanks!

My first concern is pretty obviously valid; the vaccine is known to provide only temporary immunity (in most but not all individuals). It was originally promoted as a one time shot; a booster has been added since they learned immunity wanes over time. This in itself demonstrates that not enough is known about the effects of the vaccine. What might they eventually learn about the long term side effects?

My safety concerns are based all on lack of safety studies and a flawed reporting system.

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

Bit of an exaggeration though. There's a mild increase in adult shingles linked to the vaccine which has reduced a childhood disease by 80%. You win some you loose some. Not vacciniting your child will not help that at all either, as it's related to the levels of varicella circulating in the population. If most children get the jab this will decline, so the only solution is adult shingles vaccine.

Speaking of exaggerations..!

You win some, you lose some?  

How about, nearly all well-nourished, previously healthy children who have  chicken pox recover without complications?

How about, the chicken pox jab AND the shingles jab come with risks, and a subgroup of children--and adults--will have lifelong severe effects or even die from those vaccines?  You win some, you lose some?

How about, HHS has very recently compensated many cases of vaccine-related ADEM, encepalopathy, Guillaine-Barre syndrome, transverse myelitis, etc?  You win some, you lose some?

You want to lose some--YOU take all the vaccines you want, give your child all the vaccines you want, and deal with the consequences. But unless you can identify and screen for the subgroup(s) who will have severe adverse effects from the vaccines, let's call a spade a spade, shall we, and admit that we really don't know who is going to react, or why, only that some obviously do.  And for those people, it's not worth the risk--so for SOCIETY, it's not worth the risk.

Edited by Taximom5 - 9/25/12 at 9:02pm