nope. not coming from a teenager. i hope they would have used 'jewish girl' but no i dont. if a teacher or adult said that - then yes of course. but a teenager - no.
agreed - esp if it is one friend to another.
I think it *could* be a slur depending on how it was said, but I wouldn't assume it was slur.
well her dd didnt mind it and now that they know her name they are not calling her that anymore.
so i figured the intent was not a slur. but just a teenage thing.
I liked GeoFizz's suggestion of keeping track of incidents and then following up if warranted.
People - kids in particular - try to "fit" others into categories that are familiar to them. When there is something outside of the familiar, they can have trouble figuring out where that person belongs. And that can manifest itself in ways that come off poorly, as wagz's kids experienced. Yes, in an ideal world, the parents would educate their kids in these matters. But we don't live in an ideal world. So the option is to sit and stew over others' ignorance, or do something to change it yourself.
When I was coming up, in a very small town in the NE, pretty much everyone was Catholic or Lutheran. A few Baptists thrown in. And my brother and I. The sole first Gen Americans, and Russian Orthodox to boot. Sure, also Christian. But well out of the realm of experience of any of our peers (not to mention their parents). We heard lots of comments about us being commies (middle of the Cold War, after all), about our celebrating holidays like Christmas and Easter at different times than they did, about how weird our observance of Lent was. (Yeah - bringing sardine sandwiches for lunch for seven weeks provided a wealth of fodder...) My Mom chose to invite those kids to our home to learn about some of our traditions, whether it was having our home blessed, or preparing for the holidays, or just talking about the things we did differently vs what we did similarly. It helped all of us.
Interestingly enough, I had the opportunity to experience being in the minority during my first year of marriage. I was welcomed with open arms by all... until it came out that I was a Christian. Then the doors (and minds) closed. Yep, it was hurtful. And embarrassing. And left me wondering why people couldn't look past that one detail to get to know ME. Yes, a valuable experience - one that might go a long way to changing how majority people relate to one another if they had to experience it firsthand. Oh, the country I experienced this in? Israel.
but isnt it the same thing? i am at a v. diverse place. i rarely hear anyone saying that muslim girl. instead they use covered girl. but the intent is the same. to choose a characteristic that is unique to that person.
but again no matter what they use - Jew girl, or new girl, or girl with red hair, no matter what words they use (except of course outright racist terms like the N word) the intent is what matters doesnt it?!!!! for a region where one doesnt know much about a minority the minority aspect sticks out. esp. when otherwise she looks the same as everyone. whether that's a religion or race or disability. i have heard adults use what were to me eye popping terms about a person based on their mental disability in a small town store. i doubt they use it straight to their face though. but its an identifying factor when the other person doesnt really understand who they are talking about.
my friend was called the atheist kid in high school inspite of his premature grey hair, because in a religious school his 'religion' or should i say lack of it stood out like a sore thumb instead of his grey ponytail. in fact his nickname in school was AK.
mtiger my nephew phased that too in Israel. he is a bahaii. in a small town too. not in Tel Aviv.
We weren't in Tel Aviv. We were at the Weizmann, which is (in theory) a diverse community. But not. And it's okay that it wasn't. There were a handful of us who weren't Jewish, and we made do.
I'll admit that I was amused that I hosted Seders, etc. for single Jewish friends here, but we were never invited to share in the festivities there. People in the majority EVERYWHERE show bias. I really just is.
I don't think you should hate to say it, because you are saying something true. However, my point was that although Jew can be used as a pejorative, just like any word that refers to a group of people who are in the minority can be used to express a bigoted viewpoint against that group of people, the word itself is not specifically an insult, it is the way it is used. A person might refer to herself as a Jew, but feel that she is suffering a hostile attack if someone else calls her a Jew in a scornful way.
But basically to come here and say that a black person is the N word, and how would she feel if someone called her the N word, well, I find that patently offensive. So I guess what I am saying is please don't come and deliberately use a very offensive term for a group of people and think that because you are talking about discrimination, that it is perfectly acceptable to do this. It is not. A comparable example would have said what if they kept calling an African Amercian girl Black Girl.
"Jew girl" is offensive. "Jewish girl" is not necessarily. High schoolers are certainly capable of that distinction. But, Jewish is both a religious AND an ethnic distinction in most people's minds. They wouldn't say "Catholic girl" but I sure bet they'd say "Mexican girl". I have a really really hard time believing that it could have been meant in a "friendly" way. It was a deliberate attempt to call out her difference, not a celebration of diversity.
And given the history of rampant anti-Semitism in the US, ESPECIALLY in the Bible Belt, I think the comparison to nigger is very apt. The KKK was anti-Semitic too, and the did cross burnings and at least one lynching of a Jewish man that I remember reading about.
Personally, I'd raise hell with the school, and if it continued, I'd call the mainstream Protestant churches in town and ask them what they're doing these days for tolerance.
Jew Girl= offensive.
That black girl= offensive.
That covered girl= offensive.
WTF? Are we serious here? I would be pissed if my kid got called that- it's super important that teachers and parents are teaching their kids to look beyond race and religion to describe their peers. And no matter what the adjective is, adding "that" in front of anything is pretty offensive. I hate being called "that short girl". (not that it, in any way, compares to being called "jew girl." C'mon- these kids did not forget her name. They just found a nickname that is offensive.
And how is "Jew girl" any less offensive than the n word? I grew up in a culture where it was completely acceptable to say "that n-word lady at the grocery store...." and no one even blinked an eye. Jew is used in a derogatory sense all over this country. I just cannot see how someone could think this isnt offensive.
OP. is there any update?
aaaaaaaaargh i feel like tearing my hair out now.
i feel like i am not being heard.
YES jew girl IS offensive for me. the N girl. the black girl - all offensive.
however in TEENAGE speech they mostly are NOT!!!!
in fact black teenage talk is peppered with the N word. THEY dont consider it offensive. another teen calling them the N word is not offensive. but you or me calling them the N word - yes very much so offensive and they would be pissed off.
i think for those few years from high school to the first two years of college - the teens and young adults have a whole different vocabulary of what is offensive and what is not - that is different from society.
the reason why i wouldnt raise hell is coz OPs dd doesnt want that. she also noted that the name calling has stopped. or gone down.
in a small town, a new girl, a minority too - i would NOT raise hell. i am sure she doesnt want to stand out and be THAT girl.
if it continues - ABSOLUTELY yes. but if it doesnt then no.
however it would be wonderful if the teacher had a talk/discussion in class on what society finds offensive. what communities find offensive.
I just don't understand why teenagers (and apparently until they are TWENTY(?!?!) get a free pass to be offensive. That's absurd. If anything, teens should be called out immediately so that they DONT go to college doing stupid crap like calling people "that black girl" or "jew girl". If I had met someone my own age when I was twenty who said that, I'd have likely tore them a new one for it. Now days, Id just walk away, but my temper was a lot worse back then.
it is teenspeak. they are not calling any stranger names, just amongst themselves. in their group its ok.
its just a phase and we as non teens have to allow them that.
yes 20. gosh yeah - they are still kids (as much as we'd like to deny that) they are just coming out of the teen phase. heck i have heard the N word from even grey haired people who were very loud on the phone. either as a form of endearment or swearing at the person. but this was an 'in' conversation.
heck my 10 year old has started to swear. seriously swear and call people names. and guess what advice i get? to come down hard and punish?!!! nope. be understanding. this is a phase. DONT come down too hard. help them cope. set up boundaries (no you shall not call people names) but then dont punish them every single time. seeing the effect of coming down hard on dd - i have learnt doing stupid stuff is part of growing up.
here is the part that puts me to shame. dd goes and apologizes later. heck her friends DONT take affront like i did. they say - i kid you not (they are a year older) - uh huh X you are going to start your period soon. how mindblowing is that?!!!! the mother doesnt get it, but her friends do.
however let me make it very clear. just coz they use the language DOESNT mean they are racist. at least from the teens i know. to me that makes a big difference when actions speak louder than words.
My kids never used those words (nigger, Jew kid, etc. Sorry, btw - I will not beat around the bush with "n" word - it is the word it is). The sure did learn to use cuss words, though. I remember when my 9yo asked me if he could use "language" after a really nasty play in the MLB. Sure - but I also told him that it was not language to use in school, around his grandparents, around his Dad, etc. Same with my daughter. They're not 18 & 20, and really don't use that language anymore. They've grown out of it. As I suspect that kids in OP's situation will.
This is a fascinating discussion. I teach high school English and we read the novel To Kill a Mockingbird. We do a number of socratic seminars with non-fiction about the N word. The kids all think the N word is no big deal- as long as it is said with an -a on the end and not used to put someone down. I teach in a culturally diverse school (60/40) and the opinions seem pretty consistent from year to year. Starting last year, we discussed the fact that a publisher in the South has published Huck Finn and Tom Sawyer, replacing the N word with the word slave. Every kid hated the idea, especially the African American students. They see slave as more deragotory.
Getting their opinions and reasons are truly fascinating. They don't see words and language the same way we do.
Thanks, everyone, who has taken the time to add their thoughts to this discussion! Reading through it all just now has helped me clarify my thoughts and feelings. I certainly don't agree with everything that was said, but I'm grateful for all of it.
At present, not much has changed.
My daughter says no one calls her "Jew Girl" anymore. She is really REALLY adamant that I not make a stink about this, and unless things get worse, out of respect for her, I won't. In the long view, I think it is ultimately more important for her to learn how she wants to handle situations like this, and the current scenario seems like a safe, some-what controlled arena in which she can try out her strategies without too much risk. To me, this is the largest work that teens must do, and my job as a parent is facilitate, even when I don't want to/when it pisses me off/scares me to death!
The director of my son's school called me the following day and gave me her version of the encounter. She said the boy who first said, "Jews are freaky!" uses the word "freaky" to describe anything unfamiliar. He's been spoken to multiple times in the past about that habit because it has been hurtful to others, and in light of his most recent declaration of freakiness, the director was going to talk to his parents. No word on if that happened or how it went. I do know that my son now wants nothing at all to do with either boy... And I used to see the kid's mom weekly at a playgroup our little ones are in, but haven't since the infamous comment was made. Perhaps that's just a coincidence...
The director did indeed invite me to come in and "share about our traditions". I gently glossed over the invitation and will wait to see what, if any, "tradition sharing" happens in my son's school. I still am not interested in being the token minority. We have always included our friends in our celebrations, but I'm done with performative Jewishness. If that sort of thing floats your boat, fine, but I'm not going to do it and I'm not going to feel bad about that.
Unless you are Jewish, African American, disabled, or anything else, I don't think you have the right to decide for the rest of us what is and is not offensive. I'm Jewish. "Jew girl" offends me. You don't get to tell me I'm wrong, especially if you're not Jewish. Just like African Americans can call each other "nigga" and still rage against being called the same by a white person, I'm going to insist on retaining ownership of my own feelings about how my minority status is used to identify me.
I also want to say something about the notion of "teen speak". In a nutshell, I think that's bologna. There are words, phrases, symbols, gestures, etc, that are deemed offensive by society at large and no one should be given a free pass to indulge in them, not even in limited situations or with a limited peer group. I really believe young people need to get the message loud and clear that we, as a society, do not tolerate such behavior, be it calling someone "retarded", "nigga/er", "Jew" or anything else. I live just a few blocks from the high school and I see and hear things that are really just awful. I'd like to hope most of those kids will grow out of the ugly behavior, but the longer it goes unchecked, the less likely it is to disappear entirely. Perhaps they'll eventually be better at censoring themselves, but if we, as adults do not give the VERY clear message that such behavior is societally unacceptable, deep down I doubt those kids will ever really get it.
Prior to the "Jews are freaky" incident I spent a week with my son's class at a outdoor education center. At every meal I was seated next to a grandfather who just loved to tell stories about the "Chinese boy" who lived next to his son. This "Chinese boy" is in his 40s, has 2 kids, a happy marriage, a successful career and a PhD. I don't doubt that he was calling people "Chinese boy" as a teenager too - he just never stopped. And I'd be willing to bet that the kid who called my daughter "Jew girl" will be doing the same sort of thing, at least somewhere, some of the time, when she's a grandmother. If we don't root out prejudice when kids are young, it will never die. You can overlook bad behavior in your own kids, but don't expect the rest of society to be so forgiving when they are offensive to the rest of us.
I don't think telling people that they have no right to an opinion unless they fall into a particular group is particularly helpful. As I mentioned, I faced the same sort of behavior in Israel. And yes, I have an opinion on the topic - which I believe I have the right to express. As does everyone else who responded to your initial post.
OP i am glad things have worked out to your satisfaction. somewhat.
but i do want to say something about teenspeak.
yes some keep that up when they are older. i once asked the question about the n word when i heard kids talking about it.
and guess what. a mom here said she herself used it when she was a teen but she has grown out of it.
yes you have the right to feel offended. no i am not jewish but i am a minority here. lets face it most people have no idea how not to be offensive. i face offense every single day in some form or another. i volunteer a lot with teens and just out of teens - young community college students. just coz those words are said, it doesnt mean the person using the terms are being offensive. they are using it because of lack of knowledge. and therefore i dont take offense because they dont mean it.
sad but true the world is a very racist place. i no longer try to change anything. somedays are more upsetting that others. esp. for a person who can easily fit 3 ethnic groups so i face triple the amount of prejudice. i dont face too much direct racism but i face all sorts of subtle racism.
i have watched some of those ugly kids grow out of that behaviour. it comes from awareness. from me too to let them have their speak when its their time, then awareness hits and things work out, usually.
i really dont believe in my life time will a day pass when i wont face prejudice. it is so over the top, that really - for me - i am done with being upset over comments. its not about me. its about them.
but yeah to each their own. what i have discovered is racism/prejudice is a 'normal' state of being. what is 'abnormal' is a person who has not faced any prejudice.
Originally Posted by wagz
She is really REALLY adamant that I not make a stink about this, and unless things get worse, out of respect for her, I won't. In the long view, I think it is ultimately more important for her to learn how she wants to handle situations like this, and the current scenario seems like a safe, some-what controlled arena in which she can try out her strategies without too much risk. To me, this is the largest work that teens must do, and my job as a parent is facilitate, even when I don't want to/when it pisses me off/scares me to death!
.....
Unless you are Jewish, African American, disabled, or anything else, I don't think you have the right to decide for the rest of us what is and is not offensive. I'm Jewish. "Jew girl" offends me. You don't get to tell me I'm wrong, especially if you're not Jewish. Just like African Americans can call each other "nigga" and still rage against being called the same by a white person, I'm going to insist on retaining ownership of my own feelings about how my minority status is used to identify me.
Hi Wagz, I think you are doing the right thing to respect your DDs wishes because I think that doing so could have an impact on your relationship with her. If you overrode her, you could risk her not sharing things with you in the future, and that would be a pity. I think its the right things to respect her wishes, whatever they are, and they may change in the future or be differently in a slightly different situation.
I personally think the biggest things teens need to do is develop independence and life skills.
I don't think you are wrong to be offended by "jew girl." First, your feelings are your feelings and are valid and true whatever they are. At it's very best, "jew girl" is a very iffy phrase. It's not one that I would allow my kids to use.
I still think it's possible that the girls used the phrase around their parents and their parents put a stop to it. Kids screw up. They say stupid things. Often, their parents correct them.
it is teenspeak. they are not calling any stranger names, just amongst themselves. in their group its ok.
its just a phase and we as non teens have to allow them that.
yes 20. gosh yeah - they are still kids (as much as we'd like to deny that) they are just coming out of the teen phase. heck i have heard the N word from even grey haired people who were very loud on the phone. either as a form of endearment or swearing at the person. but this was an 'in' conversation.
heck my 10 year old has started to swear. seriously swear and call people names. and guess what advice i get? to come down hard and punish?!!! nope. be understanding. this is a phase. DONT come down too hard. help them cope. set up boundaries (no you shall not call people names) but then dont punish them every single time. seeing the effect of coming down hard on dd - i have learnt doing stupid stuff is part of growing up.
here is the part that puts me to shame. dd goes and apologizes later. heck her friends DONT take affront like i did. they say - i kid you not (they are a year older) - uh huh X you are going to start your period soon. how mindblowing is that?!!!! the mother doesnt get it, but her friends do.
however let me make it very clear. just coz they use the language DOESNT mean they are racist. at least from the teens i know. to me that makes a big difference when actions speak louder than words.
You are sadly delusioned. Cope with f'ing what? Teens using bigoted, offensive language grow up to be adults that use bigoted, offensive language. If you think it is alright for your kid to use racial epithets as long as she is "among her peers" then you are potentially raising a bigot. Congratulations.
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