VBA4C - Page 2

[sunshower]

if you are on the fence about working your ass off for a vba3c, think carefully about the risk you are undertaking from laboring against a 3 timed opened uterine scar.  having seen some devastating effects of uterine rupture recently.   you aren't the only one in this scenario, you have 3 other children who benefit from having their mother? and a new child coming.   some uterine ruptures you come out okay, some uterine ruptures. not so much.  maybe i'm being scary. 

what are the specific reasons you had previous sections?  sounds like from what you said that your babies are big, possibly too big for your body.  i know women can give birth to big babies. have seen it happen, have also seen vaginas blown out so badly that if it was me i'd have taken a very unwanted c/s...

but maybe, your particular bone structure might not fit,   after 3 times it didn't work...... there are reasons women with out access to healthcare have give birth to dead babies and develop fistulas.  birth is natural. but sometimes.  it doesn't work.

again. just the risks?   is what you want, a vaginal delivery more important than a healthy baby?     recovery after a c/s is also easier if you haven't labored for a day or two first.   and to be fair. i also think in most cases the waiting for labor to start, for a few hours, maybe, if you've had monitoring of your scar.. and they think its not likely to rupture.  but every c/s you have the next pregnancy is more high risk.    we have to class you in a different risk category in the hospital if you are on your 3rd or 4th c/s. or even more than that.   

lying to your doctor is stupid,  should something happen, you want your doctor and care providers to be equipped to properly deal with that?  because. as a care provider. i like to know if you are 4 times as high risk. 

but where i work, there would be many fewer nicu admissions, and maternal hemorrhages if we did fewer tolacs, tola2c, and that trainwreck of a tola3c.

[jr'smom]

Congratulations!  Yes, best of luck to you!

[jr'smom]

Hey, sunshower...

Go troll around somewhere else.  You're not fooling anyone here.  If you really think what you said is true, go do the research on dangers of RCS.  You're in the wrong group as I'm sure you know.  Kind of a give away since you have all of 4 posts.

[bmcneal]

I don't have any experience, but I agree that you should go for what you want. Even if for whatever reason you have to have a repeat c-section, at least you'll know you did everything you could. :) Good luck!

[essco]

I really feel for you!  I have a friend, who happens to be an ND midwife, who has had similar experiences.  I think that for her last baby (#4 or 5) she went ahead and scheduled a CS. Her previous pregnancies she tried homebirth, etc. And by the way, as an ND myself, I was initially appalled at reading about a naturopathic colleague falsifying records... holy crap, that is really unethical.  But I do understand her dilemma in that IL is not a state that licenses ND's so she could have been prosecuted (by the hospital, not necessarily by you) for practicing medicine without a license. We're talking jail time, major financial penalties, etc.  It's such a effed up medical climate we work in that practitioners (ND's, lay midwives)are not allowed to practice to the extent of our training.   

I also had a homebirth with a ND midwife that ended up as a hospital C-section.  Like with your case, she she also charged the full fee, but I was ok with it b/c I felt like she did everything except catch the baby: 3 days of laboring at home with me, going to the hospital with me and staying until the very end.

I have just 2 suggestions for you.  1. when I got pregnant again 5 yrs ago and decided to go for a VBAC, I went to an energy-type healer who did some clearing work with me. I really had to heal psychologically and I guess psychically from  that first C-section.  I only saw her twice but I think that had a profound impact. 2. would you consider working with a homeopath? You might be able to find someone who could work with you not only during pregnancy but maybe to call during labor.  I know lots of skilled homeopaths but am not sure who would work via phone, b/c I don't really know any in Illinois. If you know some local homeopaths, look for ones who are accredited in some way like through the DHANP or the National Center of Homeopathy.

Not sure if any of this was helpful. I'm just sorry that you've had such an intense birth history and hope that you have a peaceful pregnancy and delivery, however your bean makes his or her entrance!

[sunshower]

not much of a troll,  just a busy busy health care provider weary of seeing terrible things happen to women having babies,

with out a doubt, attempting to vba4c is more dangerous than a repeat c/s.  sometimes, you know, we arent all out to get you and hurt people.   some things people say, are to guide you into a safer decision for your coming child, and your living children....    i believe in doing what is safest when it comes to mothers and children.   and i do not believe in all the hospital interventions most people are afraid of here.

its your life. do as you please.  i can not access medical library information now due to hurricane damage where i live,  but im sure if we got out current repeat c/s statistics, and removed out, say, the data included in most statistics for emergency cesarian birth, we'd see which complication group is higher,  and say, the complication of a maternal infection?   way less traumatic for you and your kid than say, massive bleeding from a uterine rupture before your baby is born.

we could go on for hours, but, i really do wish you a safe birth of your child.

[jr'smom]

Essco, that was very helpful, thank you!

Not sure what a homeopath does or how it can help me.  As a chiropractor, that makes me feel especially stupid.  My patients who see a homeopath just say that they are told not to be adjusted while they are taking certain things.  This doesn't make sense to me because being adjusted optimizes nervous system function and why wouldn't you always want an optimally functioning nervous system?  It seems like they give remedies to treat certain symptoms.  I could be totally wrong as I have not had any personal experience.  I would like to know how it could help me.

I am certain I will give VBAC another try (as long as I go into labor by 42 weeks, the only question I have now is do I search out another underground midwife to try HBAC.  I have a good lead on an experienced HBAMC independent midwife, but I haven't been able to bring myself to call her yet.

I have to start listening to Hypnobabies and get psyched up again.

[essco]

Originally Posted by jr'smom 

Essco, that was very helpful, thank you!

Not sure what a homeopath does or how it can help me.  As a chiropractor, that makes me feel especially stupid.  My patients who see a homeopath just say that they are told not to be adjusted while they are taking certain things.  This doesn't make sense to me because being adjusted optimizes nervous system function and why wouldn't you always want an optimally functioning nervous system?  It seems like they give remedies to treat certain symptoms.  I could be totally wrong as I have not had any personal experience.  I would like to know how it could help me.

I am certain I will give VBAC another try (as long as I go into labor by 42 weeks, the only question I have now is do I search out another underground midwife to try HBAC.  I have a good lead on an experienced HBAMC independent midwife, but I haven't been able to bring myself to call her yet.

I have to start listening to Hypnobabies and get psyched up again.

Some homeopaths are very strict about their patients not doing anything to change the symptom picture when they first take a remedy. This is because homeopathic remedies are prescribed based on the presenting, individual symptoms. For example, not everyone with migraines gets the same remedy, b/c migraines can present in so many different ways. Which remedy an individual receives depends upon how they express their particular symptoms. So a homeopath might advise their patient to not take any new supplements or medications, since that changes the symptoms, the presenting picture, and then the patient might therefore need a different remedy. Some homeopaths recommend against using strong tasting or strong smelling substances within half an hour of taking the remedy (like mouthwash, coffee, minty toothpaste). The way I was trained was that as long as somebody was doing something all along, like a habitual coffee drinker or in your patients' cases, getting regular chiropractic adjustments, they could continue those things even when starting a new homeopathic remedy. Just the same as if they have been taking a medicine or supplement all along, they continue that.

The best primer I know about for people to learn about homeopathic remedies is www.beyondflatearth.com, where you can download a free book.  Also, of course, there's The Organon by Dr. Samuel Hahnemann, the original text on homeopathy from the founder of modern homeopathic medicine.

Homeopathy can help in labor for something like a stalled labor, intense fear, ineffective contractions, that kind of thing.  Again if you look for a homeopathic doc near you, try to find someone who has accreditation with something like the DHANP or NCH, or that they are a licensable ND (an ND who went to an accredited 4 yr med school) as we get formal training in classical homeopathy in naturopathic medical school. 

I actually first learned about homeopathy from a chiropractor!  So you might even find a colleague who can help you.

[MomRunner]

Yikes about the midwife that dropped you so close to having your baby and LYING about your due date!  You aren't seriously thinking about going back to her again, are you?  How could you trust her with your life and your baby's life knowing what you know about her integrity? I would run, run, run away from her and never look back.  She should be so ashamed of herself for how she treated you!  You poor thing, left in the lurch like that!  If you decide that you do want to attempt VBA4C, I would at least go back to the last OB that you had, and if all else fails, when it came time to schedule the section, just refuse.  Nobody can make you have a section if you don't want it. 

At any rate, I know what it is like to want a vaginal birth soooo badly.  I trusted my body to vaginally birth my first baby and it completely failed me and I am more upset about that than many people can understand (although I have a feeling that you and a lot of others on this board 'get it').  If it were me, though, after 4 sections, I don't think I could get past the very real risks of another vaginal birth attempt OR go on that emotional roller coaster anymore and just schedule a section.  As much as I really like MDC, there seems to be such a prevelant culture of denying that some women can't birth babies out of their pelvis.  Yes, I know that most women can birth big babies, but not everybody's bony pelvis is made of silly putty.  Sometimes, depending on the woman, a pelvis IS too small or too narrow.  There is no way (obviously) for me to know if your pelvis is too small or if you just got unlucky four times in a row.  It sounds like you have done everything possible to deliver a baby vaginally, so I would suspect that maybe your babies are just too big for you.  I suspect that is what happened with me with my son's birth.  He was almost 10 lbs, and I did EVERYTHING I could to get him out, and I just couldn't.  I am having a hard time making peace with the fact that even though I am absolutely going to attempt a VBAC (and likely a VBA2C if that doesn't work out), that I might never get my vaginal delivery.  But, it is what it is.  At any rate, RCS have risks and so does VBA4C.  I would be too scared of catastrophic rupture after 4 sections to attempt another labor.  Everytime you cut into your uterus the scar gets thinner and thinner.  I happened to be doing some research for myself on thickness of uterine scars after sections, and thought this might be applicable data in your case.

Median myometrial thickness at the level of the isthmus was 11.6 mm in women who had only been delivered vaginally, and 8.3 mm, 6.7 mm and 4.7 mm in women who had undergone one, two and at least three Cesarean sections, respectively (P < 0.001).  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19499514

That obviously didn't include the thickness of a scar after 4 sections, but I would imagine it would be even thinner than with three studied...

If you choose a VBAC attempt, I wish you happy birthing vibes.  If you choose a RCS, I wish you peace and a quick recovery! Keep us posted!

[jr'smom]

Thanks essco for all the info!

Thanks momrunner for your support and advice!

I'm at peace with trying another vbac.  My OB reluctantly will support me (until 42 weeks.) While I think my chances are better at home, another MD (who used to do homebirths and is a big VBAC advocate) convinced me that even though he agrees homebirth is a safe and viable option for me, that with the birth climate so poor (illegal for midwives to support without OB support and they won't support after 2 cs) that I should just labor at home as long as possible and then go into the hospital to birth. He says since this OB is sticking his neck out for me (and NO others around here would) that I should just go with the plan of a hospital birth.  I wouldn't want to discourage him from supporting future vbamc for me or others by going behind his back and having the baby at home. 

Sorry for the run on sentences.  It's sometimes difficulat to concentrate with all these kids around!

[c'est moi]

I just want to thank you and everyone who posted here for this thread!

Jr'smom, I think I'm you two births ago. Based on the way my labors and subsequent c-sections progressed with my first two, I am highly doubtful that a VBA2C will work for me, yet, there^s still a part of me that feels compelled to try. However, there's also a strong part of me that questions whether a likely to fail attempt is in the best interest of the new baby, my family, or me.

[jr'smom]

I began doubting myself more with each c/s but honestly I think it's just the lack of GOOD support.  I think it's virtually impossible to find GOOD support for natural birth whether it's ones first birth or a VBAC.  I have found a wonderful group on FB and have learned so much there. Please join!

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/groups/183444955077965/?bookmark_t=group

There are many women there from around the world (okay, mostly U.S., Canada, and Australia) who have had VBAMC. (Even several who have had VBA4C like me.)  After all this time, I can't believe all the resources I was not aware of. And they are a really nice supportive community.