Utter madness: UK to give pregnant women whooping cough vaccine - Page 3

[Rrrrrachel]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 




http://www.beyondconformity.co.nz/_blog/Hilary's_Desk/post/Whooping_cough_immunity/



As the graphic turned out so small here is what it says:

I don't understand what this has to do with anything.

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

From you quote, you said that someone with a mild case of pertissis will pass a mild case onto another person. That is rubbish. So you believe, an adult with a largely asymptomatic case of WC will pass the same mild case to a three week old baby?

Please read what the study linked to above says about secondary infections.

[Minerva23]

Okay, just trying to get a bearing on this. Maybe someone here could help me clarify

So when a pregnant woman receives the WC vax then her due to pregnancy lowered immune system is producing antibodies and subsequently passing it on to the fetus. Right?

Okay, now my question concerning this is: Has there been a study were the titers of the babies 'vaxxed' in this way have been taken and shown that these babies are to some extend immune?
 

[Rrrrrachel]

Originally Posted by Minerva23 

Okay, just trying to get a bearing on this. Maybe someone here could help me clarify

So when a pregnant woman receives the WC vax then her due to pregnancy lowered immune system is producing antibodies and subsequently passing it on to the fetus. Right?

Okay, now my question concerning this is: Has there been a study were the titers of the babies 'vaxxed' in this way have been taken and shown that these babies are to some extend immune?

 

Idk if its been done regarding the vaccine specifically, but it has been done to asses if pertussis antibodies transfer from mother to fetus.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19812588/

[Rrrrrachel]

I wish I could see the full text of this article. I might have to try through my local library.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1473309907701135

[Rrrrrachel]

More info on checking antibodies in neonates, this time dealing with maternal vaccination specifically.

After maternal immunization, concentrations of pertussis antibodies in infants ranged from 50% of maternal titers to approximately equal titers in mother-infant pairs.

http://mobile.journals.lww.com/pidj/_layouts/oaks.journals.mobile/articleviewer.aspx?year=2005&issue=05001&article=00012

[Minerva23]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

More info on checking antibodies in neonates, this time dealing with maternal vaccination specifically.
http://mobile.journals.lww.com/pidj/_layouts/oaks.journals.mobile/articleviewer.aspx?year=2005&issue=05001&article=00012

Thanks for posting. This article just confirmed my suspicion. And wow to that no further studies regarding this sensitive topic have been published since the 1930s and 1940s. Yet all pregnant women should be vaccinated even though there is no new evidence supporting this claim.

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Minerva23 

Thanks for posting. This article just confirmed my suspicion. And wow to that no further studies regarding this sensitive topic have been published since the 1930s and 1940s. Yet all pregnant women should be vaccinated even though there is no new evidence supporting this claim.

WOW!  That's unbelievable.  Many mothers in the 30s and 40s would have had antibodies anyway due to having had pertussis or having been exposed to it.  

And those studies used a version of the vaccine that is no longer used.  

[Rrrrrachel]

Well that article is from 2005, so it's possible something has been done since then.  There has been research since then showing that immunization induces the production of antibodies and that antibodies are shared with the fetus through the placenta, so it's not exactly uncharted territory.

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Well that article is from 2005, so it's possible something has been done since then.  There has been research since then showing that immunization induces the production of antibodies and that antibodies are shared with the fetus through the placenta, so it's not exactly uncharted territory.

The article stated "The possibility of protecting young infants against pertussis by immunizing their mothers during pregnancy was investigated in the 1930s and 1940s; no further studies have been published since. "

[Rrrrrachel]

Right. And that reticle is seven years old. So maybe other studies have been done since then.

[prosciencemum]

Totally OT - but I love the typo. I imagine vaccine safety researchers working in very small bags! (although I'm thinking of reticule it seems: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/reticule) 

On topic - I'm not sure it's all about passing on the immunity, but also making the mothers immune so they won't be carriers to the newborns. I think there was a study that said in the majority of cases on infant pertussis it was the mother who passed the infection to the baby, so I think the idea is to shut off that transmission path. 

[AmandaT]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

On topic - I'm not sure it's all about passing on the immunity, but also making the mothers immune so they won't be carriers to the newborns. I think there was a study that said in the majority of cases on infant pertussis it was the mother who passed the infection to the baby, so I think the idea is to shut off that transmission path. 

I remember reading this in a thread and a very important bit was left out. In the majority of cases where they knew where the child got WC from, they got it from the mother.  The two statements are VERY different. 

[pers]

Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel 

Right. And that reticle is seven years old. So maybe other studies have been done since then.

Such as this one:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21272845 from 201 which concludes that giving women Tdap in ppregnancy does protect newborns.  I wish I could  see the full paper and methodology rather than just the abstract. 

A quick pub med search turned up two other related studies.  One looked at women who got the Tdap between pregnancies, comparing the newborn titers of the first pregnancy to that of the second and finding that the babies born after the Tdap had higher titers than their older sibling had had.  Another one looking at newborn levels for women who had Tdap prior to pregnancy or early in pregnancy did not have promising results though, contrary to the other studies.  It found that babies from mothers who had Tdap prior to prengnancy or early in pregnancy were not born with protective amounts of antibodies.  This one suggested that giving Tdap late in pregnancy could be a solution, but it doesn't appear from the abstract that the study actually looked at that, so apparently just a suggestion for future study.   

There were also some animal studies, one which brought up the possibility that maternal antibodies from vaccinated mice interfered with vaccinating the baby mice later.  I assume they would have considered the possibility of this with humans, but I don't know what evidence they have that allowed them to dismiss these worries, or if they have been completely dismissed. 

This was like five minutes of searching, so entirely possible I missed some stuff.  What I did turn up is not enough to say for certain that Tdap in pregnancy will protect babies, but it is a good point in that direction.  I do not have a problem giving it to pregnant women as things stand in the hopes that it will work, I just hope women are being well informed as to what the current evidence is/the lack therof, and that people are watching the numbers closely so that soon we will know for sure exactly how well it works.  

[Magali]

I realy doubt that they are being told that the risks/benefits aren't fully known.  All I ever get when my kids or I are offered a vaccine is that they are safe and effective risks are so low etc....   I know we are discussing pg women, and I've never been offered a vax while pregnant so I don't know for sure of course.

[Rrrrrachel]

I think that's a legitimate criticism.