October 2012 Rockstar Mamas

[MarineWife]

Welcome to the Rockstar Mamas thread! Our wonderful group of mamas started following each other in the Charting to Avoid thread over in fertility. Eventually we created "The Whatever Ladies!", a safe place for those of us who were not trying to prevent pregnancy, though not actively trying to conceive either. Spread out over a year, we all got pregnant and had our current babes- several whom are over a year old now!

We made the decision to switch to Rockstar Mamas, after a conversation about how each and every one of us was a Rockstar in some way, for living and thriving through the parenting challenges thrown our way every day. Feel free to join us in our thread, but be warned, the conversation moves fast!

Not really rules but something to consider if you join:

1. Need to be chatty

2. Know that we are all vastly different from one another but we've become friends so we respect those differences. We are vaxers and nonvaxers; homeschoolers, unschoolers, public schoolers; run the gamut from vegan to paleo; some of us want more kids, some don't, and some aren't sure...but we all manage to really get along and come together on things we DO agree on.

3. Aren't afraid to ask each other the hard questions or point out the obvious when/if we want advice!

Member List:

lyeterae ~ Baby boy born February 2011
annie ~ Baby girl born April 7, 2011
Barefootscientist ~ Baby boy born May 30, 2011
AnnieA (due 7/18) ~ Baby girl born July 17, 2011
MarineWife (due 7/30) ~ Baby boy born July 25, 2011
Baby_Cakes (due 8/16) ~ Baby boy born August 16, 2011
MovingMomma (due 8/9) ~ Baby girl born August 18, 2011
akind1 (due 9/28) ~ Baby girl born October 11, 2011
mom2one (due 10/23) ~ Baby boy born October 21, 2011
jeninejessica (due 12/01) ~ Baby girl born November 29, 2011
Kindermama (due 1/6) ~ Baby boy born January 1, 2012

akind1 going around again ~ due 3/6/2013 but betting on 3/11 or 3/19
(I'm guessing another girl because our group is short one girl and we were right on 50/50 alternating boy/girl. )

September Thread: http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1362233/september-2012-rockstar-mamas

[akind1]

Yay, October!

MW: you are perfectly eloquent - I was just also trying to say that just because a man wants sex (and his wife doesnt), doesn't mean it necessarily goes back that far. Now if he keeps pushing it, and pushing it, it likely does. Wife wanting more sex doesn't usually equate to forcing her husband  - or being grumpy. Women are far more likely to withold sex as a punishment/manipiulative tool than men are.  I do wonder how that dynamic plays out in same sex households . . .

In regards to sex crimes - you are very right about how frustrating it is that some things just aren't punished appropriately. And wording. I know some women are trying to "take back" the word slut. I think that's just stupid. I agree that women who dress provactively aren't "asking for it" but I also think that when they dress that way they should not be surprised when people (men and women alike) don't take them seriously. Not that you need to dress all dowdy and stuff - you can be sexy, appealing, all that, without being trashy.  That doesn't mean that anyone has the right to treat women who do dress like that poorly. I think most of those women don't really think about why they dress like that. They say it's for attention, etc, but I don't know that they really want the kind of attention that attracts (or they do, bc they might have other deep issues going on)

I am probably not being any more eloquent. argghh. need lunch.

Cleaning services . . . I wish. I am more the organizer, deep cleaner. DH likes to surface clean and bag things up.  Why do men not want to actually take out the trash???

He is also more picky about the house looking tidy. I tidy up if people are coming over. otherwise it's such a losing battle, I don't bother. I really need that nesting instict to kick in. Like NOW. LOL.

What are everyone's plans for halloween? do you do anything?

We have boo at the zoo, then trick or treating with friends, and at least one halloween party. Busy, busy times, but lots of use out of costumes!

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by akind1 

Why do men not want to actually take out the trash???

I went through the stuff that dh piled back up on the dining room this morning and found the bag of trash he had been filling up while we were cleaning. It is a small grocery bag with just a few things in it. It would easily fit in our larger trash can and we were done cleaning in there. There was no more trash to throw out. Why did he put it in a box underneath some framed photos instead of in the trash can?

Yeah, I don't think it's any less hurtful or offensive for women to demand sex and use it as a tool to manipulate. There's nothing wrong with wanting sex but there is something wrong with getting angry and pouty if you don't get it whenever you want it. If you turn your partner down every time s/he tries and there aren't issues like illness or sheer exhaustion/sleep deprivation, I think it's very possible there is a problem. If you are turning your partner down because you are exhausted and sleep deprived, your partner should step up and do more to alleviate that problem if s/he wants more sex.

I don't know that dh and I have different levels of sex drive or libido or whatever it is called. As I've said many times before, dh won't turn me down if I initiate but he never fully initiates. I was always the initiator. Even this last time we had sex he didn't actually do anything until I told him it was ok. To me, I still initiated that because, if I hadn't said anything, it never would have happened. He hasn't said or done anything since then. I guess he's satisfied for now. So, for us, lack of sex is more of an intimacy issue, I think. The closer, more connected and more intimate we are in other areas, the more sex we want and have.

What's interesting to me is that now that I'm done having babies I feel like I could never have sex again and I'd be fine. That could also be breastfeeding hormones suppressing my drive. I guess I won't know that until I stop breastfeeding. :shurg

We got in a huge fight last night about the cleaning. DH keeps putting his things in front of dresser drawers and closet doors and such so that I have to move his boots and dirty clothes and what not out of my way before I can get clothes for the boys or put laundry away or whatever. I have been asking him for months to stop doing that. So, last night he decided to clean the upstairs playroom (which he didn't finish, by the way) and stacked the Wii fit board underneath the VCR. I asked him why he did something like that AGAIN.

Yes, I was annoyed so I probably sounded a little snarky but wth? He goes into a tirade (after trying to ignore me at first) about how there's nowhere to put anything around here and, if I'm going to nag him about cleaning the wrong way, he just won't do anything. I told him it wasn't about doing things my way vs. his way. It was about simply being considerate of others when you put this away. Put them away so that they won't be in the way of other things and/or can be gotten to/used by those who use them. Oh, and if there is stuff all over the place, put it away! Don't complain to me about it and then leave it. You live here, too. These are your kids, too. It's not my stuff all over the place. It's just stuff. KWIM?

It was actually really good to get that out, for both of us, I think. I'm glad he finally let off some steam because he tends to stuff things. We got along really well the rest of the night and even went to bed feeling very close to each other, at least I felt close to him. Funny that a fight could do that, ya know. I think it's because he finally expressed his true thoughts and feelings to me rather than just saying, "I got it," so that I'll shut up and leave him alone.

[akind1]

Glad you talked/fought - sometimes getting that stuff out helps clear the air and is so cathartic. Both DH and I tend to stew a bit. Me, because, in the moment I know I will be emotional and I am always afraid of not being taken seriously when I am emotional. (product of having a marine as a dad? or being raised with too much star trek?) DH IDK why he stews. maybe a guy thing?

And I agree, intimacy often helps in the sex department. My sex drive only really feels depressed the first few weeks after the birth. as much because with both my prior births I was terrified of screwing something up (c-section and then 4th degree tear) Then . . . it's pretty much back to usual - as long as I am getting enough sleep. And even then, it's not that I don't want to have sex, it's just that it's not a priority.

I don't know if this always works for everybody, but often I wait to talk about things until we can both be calm - because we are removed from it. like on car rides - it helps that right now those are uninterrupted by kids, bc they are asleep/enteraining themselves in the back - and then to be like, ask, where would be the best place for X to go? I thought about putting in under the VCR, but then nobody can really get to it, or it makes a big mess trying to get it out.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by akind1 

I don't know if this always works for everybody, but often I wait to talk about things until we can both be calm - because we are removed from it. like on car rides - it helps that right now those are uninterrupted by kids, bc they are asleep/enteraining themselves in the back - and then to be like, ask, where would be the best place for X to go? I thought about putting in under the VCR, but then nobody can really get to it, or it makes a big mess trying to get it out.

Well, yes, that would be nice if I hadn't already been doing that for months with his boots and dirty camis and stinky workout clothes and bags and everything else. I get a little annoyed when I talk to him about the same thing over and over and he still does it. It's like he can't apply this situation to that one. He's very specific. Ok, don't stack my boots in front of Kellen's dresser drawers. Got it. But he can't then look around and think, Hmm, maybe I shouldn't put this big, heavy box right in front of the coat closet. Then he gets mad at me for nagging him about every little thing but I'm like, if you would think of it on your own, I wouldn't have to nag you about every little thing. KWIM?

He also went into this whole thing about how the VCR wasn't even plugged in (I didn't have an issue with where the VCR was) and the Wii doesn't even work and no one ever uses either of them, anyway. Ok, so he's here all time and sees what everyone does every minute of every day so he knows that the VCR has NEVER been used by anyone EVER? Has he tried to use the Wii since Ryan said it stopped working to see if it really doesn't work? If he has and it is truly broken, why would he then just put it all back where it was rather than throwing it out? If it's broken, it's trash. He didn't think at all about anyone else's point of view. It was all about his.

It wasn't about him putting the Wii fit board in one corner of the room and me saying that it goes in the other corner. It was about him putting it underneath the VCR so that, if I wanted to use it, I would have to lift up the VCR, which causes the shelf to fall and everything to fall behind it, in order to get the board. Then I have to fix the TV stand shelf and put the VCR back.

Ok, now I've gone off on another rant. This is a continual issue with him, though. It's the same as him throwing out the rock that Kellen had in his shorts pocket while we were in Williamsburg. Kellen had seen a real, live archeological dig while we were there. He saw grown men digging in the dirty and collecting rocks and things. He decided to start his own collection. It was important to him. DH just saw it as junk and threw it out without even asking. He didn't for one second take Kellen's feelings into consideration. He left bad afterward when he saw Kellen crying but he should have just asked. It doesn't take that much effort.

Or the time he locked up all the tools in the garage before he deployed for a year so that Ryan wouldn't get into them and lose them. I understand that but he didn't tell me he had locked them up and didn't leave me a key so I couldn't get any tools that I needed to do minor repairs. Just not thinking beyond his own POV.

I've told him ad nauseum that equate to not caring to me. That's why I get so hurt and angry when he does stuff like that. If he really, truly cared, he would take the time to at least ask what the rest of us want, think, feel, see, need. He doesn't. He just barrels through with his own agenda that he hasn't even bothered to share with anyone and then is dumbfounded when everyone is upset with him about afterward.

[AnnieA]

MW, do you think he's operating from a place of malice when he does that? I ask because I'm guilty of doing stuff like that in my house and I'm not trying to hurt anyone, I'm actually trying to help. One time I did a deep clean purge in the girls' room because it had gotten to be a safety issue. The next time they came home, H looked everywhere for this gumball machine ring that had been in there. She couldn't find it. I'm sure I threw it away. But it wasn't like I found it, thought it was super special to H and then threw it away. I just got a little overzealous.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by AnnieA 

MW, do you think he's operating from a place of malice when he does that?

No, I don't think he does the sort of thing like throwing out Kellen's rock maliciously. I think that's just a matter of not thinking and taking other people into consideration. When it's done repeatedly even after many, many talks about it for many, many years, though, it starts to feel like he doesn't really care what the rest of us think or feel. He's going to do what he wants to do regardless because that's what's most important.

He has done things with Ryan's stuff maliciously. He got angry at Ryan for using his tools so he took all of Ryan's car stereo equipment and put it outside next to the trash can without telling anyone after I had told him not to throw it out and then left for deployment. I didn't find it until several days later when it was trash day.

I am wondering a little if he puts things in my way on purpose. After trying to ignore me for a while about the Wii board he finally yelled that maybe he wouldn't do that if there was somewhere to put things but there's crap everywhere like on top of his dresser. I asked if he would put his boots or the Wii board on top of his dresser if it were clean. He said he would not. Then what do those things have to do with each other? That's a perfect example of him not taking responsibility for his actions. It's all, if I didn't do this, he wouldn't do that. BS!

I got interrupted too many times and now I can't remember everything I was going to post.

[akind1]

Has he always been like this? I know he's been back from deployment a while now, but he has been gone a lot of your marriage - just as much as you are used to doing it all by yourself, he's kind of used to only having to look after himself.  Not trying to make excuses for his blind sighted ness, but trying to understand it a little. Is therapy at all possible for you together? It seems as if you need help communicating with one another and could use some tactics that might involve less hurt feelings and stepped on toes.

DH and I have that only to a small extent - we often both have a plan of attack in our heads, but failing to share it with the other (Because we assume the other person just has magically intuited it, or that the plan is the only logical one, and so therefore must've occured to the other) and then both end up in trouble because we were so not on the same page. It's not about not caring. I think he must care, he just sucks at showing it.

At any rate - hugs - and hopefully you can have some more good talks

[Baby_Cakes]

Just jumping in - I'm huge on purging.  I will toss stuff w/o thinking twice about it and I've had to train myself to think "is he/she going to miss this" before tossing things.  DH is a pack rat.  It's a problem.  I don't think he needs to keep his folders of school work from grade school and cub scouts.  I don't think he needs to keep it in the living room either.  But no matter how often I tell him to move it/toss it, it ends up gone thru (again) and put somewhere else or back where it was.  

I'm with you guys on the sex convo.  

I hate feeling guilty when I'm not in the mood, but I do.  I guess it's b/c I feel like it would be out of reciprocity and not b/c I'm being bullied or shamed.  It's more of a chore for me these days but once I'm into it I do enjoy it.

Actually (TMI probably) but last night we finally did dtd and b/c I have the fertile crazies I had told him earlier in the day DO NOT TRUST ME if I tell him we don't need protection.  Well, after 1/2 a bottle of wine apparently I did tell him it was no big deal if we didn't use anything, "I can't get pg while I'm nursing and if we did have another baby whatever!"  OMG.  He told me that this am and I was like wow, I really cannot be trusted while fertile!  Ha!

So anyway - in a nutshell - we talked it all over and hashed it out.  He's not as mad about the lack of dtd as I thought.  He said it came out all wrong.  He is stressed about other things, and feels like we don't have any time for any decent conversations or sexy time.   LIke either.  I agree.  We don't.  

I found us a babysitter though that I trust, so soon I'm going to start using her for a few hours here and there so the kids can get used to her (and she can get used to them).  Maybe more dates in our future will help him feel less alone.  He said he feels lonely.  

Nora's bday tomorrow!  Have to whip up cupcakes and put together goody bags for her class party.  I'm also wading thru all the stuff online trying to find party ideas.  

[akind1]

So, you didn't answer the bigger question: did he remember you were crazy and cover up, or go with the flow, and we will see what happens in a couple weeks???

I am so happy for all the good talks - the planets must be in a good alignment for communication.

And hooray for dates! I wish we could do more. When we lived with DH's parents, it wasn't so big a deal leaving one or both kids, because outside of work, they have no life and do nothing. My parents both work, hard, Dad is in school and has homework, and they also are big into going on bike rides (Goldwing motorcycles) not to mention all the home mainentance and repair they do. so I try not to take advantage of them too much, and DH's parents are on the other side of town. But I did find a baby sitter we like, and might use her for a date night at some point.

I need more sleep. and to get some more work done . . . ugh

[Baby_Cakes]

Originally Posted by akind1 

So, you didn't answer the bigger question: did he remember you were crazy and cover up, or go with the flow, and we will see what happens in a couple weeks???

Oh no he remembered!  He said no way and covered up!!  

I may not be trustworthy, but he is!

[MarineWife]

Nora's bday already?! Wow! Happy birthday to her!

Glad you guys talked, Carrie. Sooo...were precautions taken? Maybe that FB post will be prophetic.

Hm, I bet I could ask Ryan's girlfriend to babysit more often and plan some dates with dh.

No, he has not always been like this. Early in our relationship it was all whatever I wanted all the time. He didn't care what, when, where, why or how as long as he was with me. Now he's very passive/aggressive about things. Counseling is a long story.

I agree that probably a lot of it from being deployed and just being gone and not having to think about anyone else but himself. I know he cares. Or at least, I hope he cares. Otherwise, why in the world is he sticking around? But I feel like he doesn't care when he does things like that. It's about being considerate and empathic. If something is important to me, it should be important to those I love. At the very least, they should care because I care. I hate, absolutely despise, professional sports. DH loves the Patriots and the Red Sox. He is a huge fan of both and he loves to watch their games, although he will watch any sports. I know that so I sometimes get him fun things related to those teams. I would never take his Patriots beach towel and throw it out because he left it hanging on the back of a dining room chair for at least a month. I wouldn't pull one of his Marine Corps coins out of his pocket while doing laundry and just toss it because it's just a token, not worth anything. They matter to him. So it really hurts me when he doesn't do the same for me and the boys. It's like he thinks his opinion and his comfort are more important than us. He may care about us but what he wants is the most important.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by Baby_Cakes 

Oh no he remembered!  He said no way and covered up!!  
I may not be trustworthy, but he is!

Oh, oh well. You caused me a little more excitement for the day. teehee

[AnnieA]

I would like to have more date nights but I already miss bedtime 5 out of 7 nights and I'm just not willing to give up another one just for a regular dinner out with DH. I'd rather stay home, get Ava to bed and then spend time w/DH watching TV and drinking wine. For special, special occasions, I'm ok w/that but not for just regular nights out.

Baby_Cakes, I can't be trusted when I'm fertile either. The only thing that is keeping me from really going baby crazy is I do not want my milk supply to dry up before Ava is done w/mama milk. And based on how my supply drops when AF arrives, I know it would drop drastically quickly after getting pregnant. So I don't want that to happen. But seriously, I look at Ava and I think she is just the most amazing creature ever and I want to make more just like her!

She did ok with the new babysitter today. I was worried sick, I cried most of the way to work because I was so worried that she was upset and we weren't there to comfort her. She didn't cry when I left but she was very nervous. She wanted to play with the other kids though. And she asked to get out of my arms and play so it wasn't like I had to pry her off me. DH said she was ok when he got there.

The last two nights sleep-wise have been just heavenly. Ava's sleep has all of a sudden just gotten better. Like that. Nothing I did to affect it other than making sure she eats something with a lot of fat and a lot of protein right before bed. She's not taking in as much milk overnight. It's wonderful! I'm still getting up around 4 AM to pump because if I don't, I'm a wreck when we wake up at 8:30ish and I haven't pumped for 7+ hrs. I can't think because I'm in so much pain. I'd much rather miss 30 mins of sleep and wake up with a clear head.

[MarineWife]

Annie ~ I'm so glad she did so well. And, yay on the sleep, too.

We won't miss bedtime even if we go out so that's not an issue here. I've asked Ryan's girlfriend and she said she would babysit when she can. I told her only once maybe rarely twice a month.

My contract with Verizon is up on the 7th. I'm switching back to AT&T and am trying to decide what smartphone to get, an iPhone or a Samsung Galaxy SIII. I've pretty much decided on the Samsung unless someone can really sell me on the iPhone.

[Baby_Cakes]

Originally Posted by MarineWife 


Oh, oh well. You caused me a little more excitement for the day. teehee

Sorry!  I didn't even realize I wasn't clear!!  Ha!

Originally Posted by AnnieA 

I would like to have more date nights but I already miss bedtime 5 out of 7 nights and I'm just not willing to give up another one just for a regular dinner out with DH. I'd rather stay home, get Ava to bed and then spend time w/DH watching TV and drinking wine. For special, special occasions, I'm ok w/that but not for just regular nights out.

Baby_Cakes, I can't be trusted when I'm fertile either. The only thing that is keeping me from really going baby crazy is I do not want my milk supply to dry up before Ava is done w/mama milk. And based on how my supply drops when AF arrives, I know it would drop drastically quickly after getting pregnant. So I don't want that to happen. But seriously, I look at Ava and I think she is just the most amazing creature ever and I want to make more just like her!

She did ok with the new babysitter today. I was worried sick, I cried most of the way to work because I was so worried that she was upset and we weren't there to comfort her. She didn't cry when I left but she was very nervous. She wanted to play with the other kids though. And she asked to get out of my arms and play so it wasn't like I had to pry her off me. DH said she was ok when he got there.

The last two nights sleep-wise have been just heavenly. Ava's sleep has all of a sudden just gotten better. Like that. Nothing I did to affect it other than making sure she eats something with a lot of fat and a lot of protein right before bed. She's not taking in as much milk overnight. It's wonderful! I'm still getting up around 4 AM to pump because if I don't, I'm a wreck when we wake up at 8:30ish and I haven't pumped for 7+ hrs. I can't think because I'm in so much pain. I'd much rather miss 30 mins of sleep and wake up with a clear head.

Yayyy for sleep!

I'm glad she did ok with the b/s!  That's huge!  I'm sorry you were a wreck -- but I totally get it.  I'm the same exact way!!!

I worry about the milk thing too.  I know you have an extra stress b/c you're pumping.  But yes, I feel the same!  That -- and just, Idk.  I know what I can handle mentally and another baby right now with my marriage being how it is just wouldn't be ideal.

Date nights -- ours are usually more like Sunday afternoons.  I'm not ready to leave Finn at bedtime yet b/c he still nurses down.  Chris has never put him to bed.  It's always me and I don't mind it.  So for now (and not recently) we stay close, maybe go to a matinee and out to lunch locally.  It's nice.  That's all I need.  I'm not ready even to to go the city.  Manhattan is too far for me to leave Finn.  I know, it might be crazy.  But I just can't do it yet!!  

AFM - O pains are serious today!  OMG I feel like my ovary is going to freaking explode.  I took some advil and a bottle of wine.    

I can't believe I put my 3 year old to bed for the last time tonight.  Sniff, sniff.  How is she already 4?!?  I remember labor with her like it was yesterday.  It really does go by so fast.  She is so excited for her bday tmw.  I took a bunch of cute pics of her today outside, can't wait to get them posted/printed up.

[Baby_Cakes]

Originally Posted by akind1 

What are everyone's plans for halloween? do you do anything?

We have boo at the zoo, then trick or treating with friends, and at least one halloween party. Busy, busy times, but lots of use out of costumes!

That's fun!!

I have my costume but the kids haven't come up with anything yet.  I bet Nora will be a princess and I bet I will cave and get the Woody costume from Disney for Finn. 

nora's school is having Trunk or Treat and I'm thinking it might be smart.  She is seriously FREAKED by scary halloween stuff.  She had a panic attack in Target the other day b/c we walked by masks and things.  I don't think going around will be good for her unless we do it fast and just on our block.  We'll see.  We can always try and if she gets scared head back.

I thought about having her bday party on the 20th be a costume party.  But.  No kids are really coming so that's really lame!

[Baby_Cakes]

Originally Posted by MarineWife 

Annie ~ I'm so glad she did so well. And, yay on the sleep, too.
We won't miss bedtime even if we go out so that's not an issue here. I've asked Ryan's girlfriend and she said she would babysit when she can. I told her only once maybe rarely twice a month.
My contract with Verizon is up on the 7th. I'm switching back to AT&T and am trying to decide what smartphone to get, an iPhone or a Samsung Galaxy SIII. I've pretty much decided on the Samsung unless someone can really sell me on the iPhone.

I just got the Galaxy S III!  I love it.  It's so snappy and works great.  I love it!  I should have let you play with it at williamsburg!!

[AnnieA]

OMG, 4 yrs old! I can't even imagine Ava as a 4 yr old. No way! Can't wait to see pics of the princess party. My 3 yr old niece's b-day party was a princess party.

If we had the money and I could convince DH, I would have us dress us as DH as Mario, me as Princess Peach and Ava as Toad. I'm going to take her to Walmart and see what she likes. I kind of want to find a Yoda costume for her. But the smallest one I saw online was a 2T. She liked the bumblebee costume we saw in TRU so maybe they will have one of those at Walmart.

I think the Galaxy S III has more features, right?
 

[akind1]

I love my iPhone, and can't imagine switching to the droid platform. My parents just got the iPhone 5, but they also have a galaxy tablet, and I don't like the interface as much. I think the iphone is just so easy and intuitive to use. But that's me.

Bedtime: DH is doing it now with Norah, she goes down faster for him, and easier. She barely is waking once a night the last week to nurse, which is fantastic. she gets a fruit pouch right before bed, and that seems to help.  If that's all she is going to want to nurse, I can keep that up the rest of the pregnancy if need be; I wake that often at least to pee. It's when she was wanting to nurse every hour or two for 1/2 hour or more that it was driving me nuts.

I am so sleepy. We went out for wings last night, service was horrible. i got chicken pieces stuck in my teeth, which because I fell asleep before I could floss, meant they bothered my gums and I woke up at 3 a.m. in pain. flossed, rinsed, brushed, even broke down and took some tylenol. It still hurts. UGH. If we had oragel in the house I'd use it.

Annie - Glad Ava is doing so well! She is an amazing little person! and I totally understand not wanting to miss bedtime if the majority of the week you do. I'd do an afternoon instead if that were the case.