17 year old over-confidence

[mio2323]

I am hoping to get some of that awesome mothering perspective...

My DSD is 17 and a junior in high school.  Over the years, DH and I have noticed that she is over-confident (or maybe unrealistic) in her skills and understanding of things.  I don't know if over-confident is the best description, but here are some examples-

DSD has taken 2 years of French.  She insists she is a fluent speaker and is seeking a translator title at her job as a cashier at the grocery store.  She currently has an F in French this school year.

DSD used to cook 1x a week, as all members in the family do.  She would make nachos, grilled cheese etc.  She says she knows how to cook.

DSD read a wiki article on car engines and now thinks she is qualified to work as a mechanic.

Most recently, she told DH that she had a thorough understanding of physics.  She had dropped her physics class the day before.  She had an F in the class. 

I get that at 17, it is almost impossible to have a large worldview and most kids this age feel they are experts in anything they come into contact with.

My concern is that she really cannot see past the confidence, even when her grades and teachers tell her otherwise.  When she is not getting high grades, it is the teacher's fault.  Last year, she had Ds & Fs in Geometry, and it took us until March to help her realize that she needed help, not that the teacher didn't like her, or she just went too fast on the tests.  We talk a lot about it being ok to admit something is hard and needing help.  We have many talks about seeking help as soon as you realize you need it; but she really seems to not realize it.

Is this typical teenage stuff?  I don't want to do anything to take away her confidence, but I want her to be ok with realizing you can't be an expert on everything and it is ok to need help.  This type of thing could be detrimental to her when she goes to college and doesn't have us to nag her to seek help. 

[whatsnextmom]

It's a big problem with this generation in general. My nieces nephew and sister-in-law are all 19-26 and they are the same way.... all confidence with no skills or achievement to warrant it. DH sees it in the 20-somethings he hires. I see it in other teens. Just a couple years ago there was a world-wide study on math skills and math confidence. Guess what, American kids finished the test and felt the MOST confident that they'd done well..... they scored the lowest of the countries tested. The countries that tested the highest, were the least confident on how they did. Obviously, there are still lots of hard-working kids in this country but there is no denying this upward trend in entitlement and undeserved over-confidence.

So, it's not just your DD. Our kids have grown in a culture where children's responsibilities have decreased dramatically while our concern for their "self-esteem" has sky-rocketed. They don't have as many consequences as they used to have. They have a lot of people (not just parents) telling them they are wonderful without ever really having to be wonderful. Personally, we had the benefit of watching this trend happen with all my sister-in-law's children who were pre-teens and young teens before we had children. When it was our turn, we made a very conscience effort to keep them humble, wordly and competent. This meant making sure they were in challenging environments both in school and in their chosen activities. It meant doing a lot of volunteer work and keeping them in touch with what was going on in the real world. We did our best to compliment effort over achievement and we keep our expectations high (though try to keep them realistic with who they are.) It seems to have had the desired effect but like I said, we've been working on it since birth. At this point, you may just need to let her take her lumps but be there to help her find her way after. I do recommend volunteer work though... at any age.

[fruitfulmomma]

I was thinking about that study too.

I don't really know anyone in that age bracket so don't know how typical it is now, though certainly not the way I thought at that age.

[singin'intherain]

I think it's partly the age, she's never had to really take a fall before. I think there's something about the teenage brain that just doesn't accept mortality. It's like they know intellectually that bad things can happen, but they think there's some kind of magic shroud around them, perhaps created by their own superior perspective on life. I certainly thought that way when I was a kid. I see it in my dd, too- it's like she has such a command over her world, since it hasn't changed much in all these years, she thinks she knows all there is to know. She will probably have to fail in the real world before she gets it- it seems like it's an experience thing, as a pp pointed out, but also a maturity thing- getting to the point of taking responsibility for what happens to herself.

[LynnS6]

Are you always rescuing her from her overconfidence? There's nothing like getting the feedback from the real world to let you know that you were wrong. If you do, stop. If you don't rescue her, then I might talk to the school counselor about how she doesn't seem to have a reasonable perception of what's going on.

Somewhere there is research to show that incompetent people often overestimate their skills. One of the reasons they're not competent is that they don't have a good sense of their skills in relationship to what's actually needed. Competent people, on the other hand, often underestimate their competence because they can easily see where they don't measure up. What I don't know is how you get someone to see the dissonance between what they think they can do and what they can do.

[mio2323]

I don't know that we are rescuing her, but we aren't letting her fail either.  Regarding school, her grades determine if she can go out on the weekends etc etc. We have her make appointments to work with teachers whose classes she is failing in etc. If she does not do what is needed to get better grades, there are consequences (grounding, earlier curfew etc).  Other situations, we just let the sitatuation play out, and her deal with not getting a job or whatever the else happens. 

I am trying to think of a safe/healthy way to let her fail at something and can't come up with much.  The issue for me is that her life with her mom (from 6-13) was a horrible world of neglect and being put in situations no kid that age should ever have to witness or deal with.  There was no one in her corner, helping her navigate life.  No one cared if she attended school, let alone grades.  So, I don't want her to fail or feel like she is alone on these things.  Also, she is a junior in high school and this is the year that matters.  I think otherwise, I would be ok with her failing a class or 2, and having to deal with summer school. 

I would love to come up with a way to get her to the middle ground of realizing that you can't be awesome at everything, but you are still an awesome person. 

[mtiger]

I dunno... Part of it is the age. My son was sure he would get into conservatories he was just not prepared for. But he was willing to listen enough to apply to other options, and we went from there. But, he did also tell me at the start of his Junior year that he wished he had listened to me sooner, as he would have had more options. Having said that, he managed to be accepted into conservatory after his first semester and is having some huge successes. He's learned to work his butt off, and has a life plan going in terms of finishing his undergrad, moving on to Grad school, etc.

My daughter is cocky as anything, but she has always been rather realistic as to what she knows and what she doesn't, and what her options are. She has a primary goal (Vet school), but knows what the odds are. So has a back-up plan. She does, however, know what she wants and makes it happen.

Your girl... Needs to learn how to fail. And how to fight for what she wants. Given that she's a Junior and already has some F's under her belt, I'm thinking that CC is her best option after HS. She can go to CC regardless of her grades. So I would let her fail now. If you and Dad keep helping her get by? She will not learn from failing until she's already in CC - and that will be a bigger problem. Stop saving her. She's a big girl, and has to learn to help herself.

[pek64]

It doesn't sound like overconfidence to me. It sounds more like denial. She dropped physics because she knew she was failing, but telling others, and herself, that she knew all about physics. That's denial. She didn't want to face the truth. Somehow, she has to learn to accept the truth.

[LynnS6]

Has she had counseling? I agree that she's in denial and probably having a hard time dealing with her feelings when things aren't going well. Even if she's been in counseling, maybe it's time to go back. As she changes, her past experiences will affect her. I think you also need to work with a counselor to find a safe way for her to fail something so she realizes that the world does not end if she does not fail. (My 8 year old is about to learn that with a sport.)

[mio2323]

Yes, she has been in therapy for about 3 years.  The majority of their work has been on her dealing with the neglect and eventual abandonment by her mother, and learning that the life she lived (with her mom's serious substance abuse) was not normal.  Also, some really intense work on anger management. 

I think I will get in touch with her therapist and mention our concerns.  I am always trying to decide if the things she goes through are just normal teenager things or things that need to be dealt with in a theraputic setting. 

We are putting the fail into place in a minor way with driving.  She insists she is an awesome driver, yet the driving school requested she not continue until she has spent more time with me driving.  She will not make time, or show up when she makes plans to drive with me, so she probably will not take her scheduled driving test in a few months, due to lack of hours.  It stinks though, since in the end, this just means more shuttling around for me.  It will not change her, just inconvenience her, since she will not follow through, and waits on us for a rescue. 

Edited by mio2323 - 10/20/12 at 10:50am

[pickle18]

I have seen kids that are raised and taught to believe that they are awesome at everything under the sun, totally infallible, and anyone who says otherwise...well, THEY'RE the ones with the problem!    I do think it's a cultural thing, just like materialism, consumerism, etc.  There's an insecure hollow space at center, so one needs to define oneself by external labels and props (even self-created barricades, like "I am perfect, you can't tell me otherwise!") - instead of a stable, grounded inner confidence that can weather ups and downs, wins and losses.

So, she's a teen, plus it's cultural, but overall it doesn't sound like you're raising her that way.  Which leads me to agree it sounds like denial, which could be an engrained defense mechanism by now ("X isn't really happening right now, Y isn't really my reality, Z doesn't matter...").  It sounds like alot of her therapy is breaking down that denial (about her mom and upbringing) - so this seems related, to me.

Failure can be really scary and painful.  It's alot easier to shut it out and be a hardass and pretend nothing is your fault, you are awesome, and you don't care.  Especially when you're dealing with wounds the size of hers.  

eta - I'm sure she's been dealing with questions like, "why wasn't I good enough?  why didn't my mom love me?  why didn't she take care of me?" and on and on.  Failure can really hit a nerve there, when it's not cushioned by blind bravado.