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Time outs? need discipline help w- 2.5 yr old - Page 2

post #21 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by P.J. View Post

I don't and won't use time outs. Dr.Laura can explain better than I can: http://www.ahaparenting.com/Default.aspx?PageID=1280679&A=SearchResult&SearchID=5324351&ObjectID=1280679&ObjectType=1
 

yeash, that's kind of how I feel too PJ. I never used them or considered using them till the other day when ds was being quite obnoxious and my sister suggested it- so I wanted to explore on here to reaffirm why exactly I felt wrong about using them- I think this link you gave explains it well

post #22 of 50

We talk about "rules" in my house for our 25 MO DD. When she wants to do something and she can't it's because "that's the rule, honey. You can't X, Y, Z. Sorry." It helps -me- be firm but clear about expectations and it almost gives me an out not to give in because... well, a rule is a rule! Another thing we have in our house is this line: "Please make a GOOD decision to not X, Y, Z." Works 90% of the time and avoids DD getting into trouble that is just going to spiral out of control (especially near dinnertime, that's her worst time!).

 

We did TOs for awhile but realized they were just a fun counting game for her and she had no idea what was what so we just sort of naturally stopped them. We do say to her, in the event of a really bad tantrum, that if she doesn't stop she'll have to go to her room. She doesn't like that so she stops pretty darn quickly.

post #23 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapdragon View Post

yeash, that's kind of how I feel too PJ. I never used them or considered using them till the other day when ds was being quite obnoxious and my sister suggested it- so I wanted to explore on here to reaffirm why exactly I felt wrong about using them- I think this link you gave explains it well

 

Use your intuition. Usually if it doesn't feel right ~if it's one of those discipline techniques that, as you do it it just feels terrible and then after you feel guilty and/or your child just gets even more upset....well then there is probably a better solution. Discipline during really intense emotional moments (both for mama and child!) is really hard, not matter which way you do it. But there is "hard" where you know you have to do it and you can stay centered and calm and not get all upset, and afterwards it felt like the right thing and you still feel connected to your child. And then there's "hard" where it is going against your intuition and comes from a place of being mad and annoyed with your child, and afterwards you feel less connected. I find it takes quite a bit of trial-and-error but I know the times I get it "right" we all feel ok about it after and my son accepts it, even if in the moment he got upset.

 

BTW Dr. Laura's site is chock FULL of ideas for disciplining a toddler and preventing these sorts of situations in the first place. Aren't toddlers intense??!! Best of luck!!!

post #24 of 50

duh.gifOfficially rethinking time outs...

 

It always works better to hold him anyway. Time outs always do feel unnecessarily cruel.
 

post #25 of 50
Thread Starter 

andee- yay! Glad to get you thinking!

I feel weird that I started this thread because I am actually not into time outs- as I said I was just exploring the concept to reaffirm my initial feeling. :) but then again my kid is only 2 and a 1/2 and I am just learning as I go(as we all are). I think being connected and kind is better than disconnecting and being hard hearted though.

post #26 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by P.J. View Post

I don't and won't use time outs. Dr.Laura can explain better than I can: http://www.ahaparenting.com/Default.aspx?PageID=1280679&A=SearchResult&SearchID=5324351&ObjectID=1280679&ObjectType=1
 

 

I don't give much thought to those that see time out as a punishment.  If they do, then they are using it all wrong.  It does, as I think I explained above, have to be accompanied by loving words and hugs.  Time out is simply a method to calm or to show a child without physical punishment that their behavior is wrong.  This does not make the kid think they are a bad person any more than any type of discipline would.  And a child must be disciplined... not punished, disciplined.  Time out is a safe way to do that as long as it is handled properly, calmly, and with lots of love after the brief time.

Lots of children have benefited from time out if it's handled properly.  And without any negative self-esteem.

post #27 of 50

Age is important when considering timeouts. They have to understand the purpose.

post #28 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by orthodoxmom View Post

 

I don't give much thought to those that see time out as a punishment.  If they do, then they are using it all wrong.  It does, as I think I explained above, have to be accompanied by loving words and hugs.  Time out is simply a method to calm or to show a child without physical punishment that their behavior is wrong.  This does not make the kid think they are a bad person any more than any type of discipline would.  And a child must be disciplined... not punished, disciplined.  Time out is a safe way to do that as long as it is handled properly, calmly, and with lots of love after the brief time.

Lots of children have benefited from time out if it's handled properly.  And without any negative self-esteem.


Agreed.

post #29 of 50

I often hear that "time out isn't a punishment". Maybe not to the adult - but they are to a child. He does something wrong, love and affection are withdrawn and he is isolated. It may be a temporary punishment, but it is a punishment all the same. It also teaches the child that your love is conditional upon him doing things that please him. Alfie Kohn's Unconditional Parenting explains this idea pretty well.

 

Here are some other links on the topic:

 

http://suite101.com/article/time-in-versus-time-out-a57271
http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/22_alternatives.html
http://naturalparentsnetwork.com/alternatives-time-out/
http://abundantlifechildren.com/2012/07/30/how-to-raise-decent-children-without-spankings-or-time-outs/
http://rootparenting.org/child-timeouts-can-be-harmful/
http://joanneaz_2.tripod.com/positivedisciplineresourcecenter/id26.html

 

You will see that many of them advocate time in instead of time out, where the child isn't isolated but the parent stays with them to help them manage their emotions. Other posters have said it already, but I find empathising and saying "I can see you feel really mad about x" (verbalising for him, if he's not able to himself) means most tantrums dissipate pretty quickly.
 

We practise a mix of RIE and AP here, and I've found Janet Lansbury's blog pretty awesome in general.

http://www.janetlansbury.com/2010/04/no-bad-kids-toddler-discipline-without-shame-9-guidelines/

post #30 of 50

To me, if TO is something that sounds like dog training is punishment. (Like counting to 3 etc.) If it's something I would do with another adult ("Let's take a moment to calm down, ok?") I think it's reasonable.
 

post #31 of 50

I think it would help you to try to see the situation from his perspective.  Being told that you can't do something that you really, really, really want to do is very frustrating, especially when you can't understand WHY you can't do it.  He doesn't understand the concept of "messy" and doesn't have the reasoning or empathy capabilities to think though, "If I pour this milk on teh ground, it will make a mess and Mama will be upset, so I better not do it."  The screaming and tantrums come in when they lack the verbal skills and self control to express their emotions any other way.  

 

The bossiness and needing to be in charge is just a hallmark of toddlerhood.  Of course some kids exhibit it more than others, but they're experimenting with independence and authority.  Their control over their world is limited, with lots of big people telling them what to do, when to do it, and what NOT to do, that they seek control where they can get it.  

 

The first thing I do when DS wants to do something he can't do is try to honor his impulse.  No, obviously he can't pour milk out on the floor, but I can give him a little bit in a cup, and a second cup to pour back and forth.  I use this tactic A LOT and with my very spirited almost 2yo it works very well.  He got a hold of DH's hammer today, but rather than immediately taking it away, I quickly swept him outside and gave him a rock to hit (closely supervised, obviously).  This, combined with being very selective about which battles to fight (as in, if he's wanting to do something that is simply annoying to me, or is going to create more mess than I'd like to clean up, I try to roll with it, and stick to only intervening when his chosen activity is either costly (like pouring out milk, or chipping our tile with a hammer) or unsafe), works well for us.

 

When it doesn't work, empathize, empathize, empathize, and TEACH.  Being shown empathy is how they will eventually learn it.  "You really wanted to pour out the milk. You're very angry/frustrated that I said no.  I'm sorry."  Then just be a calm presence, maybe repeating something like, "I see that you are angry" until the storm passes. Let him have his emotions.  Then, if you feel like it's something he can understand, talk about what to do next time.  Talk about how he was feeling in that moment, and teach him an alternative behavior.  2.5 is too young for a prolonged conversation, but I think it's a good practice to start now because eventually it will sink in.  

 

"You were very mad, weren't you?  I could see that.  Next time you start to feel that way, you can stomp your feet/beat your chest like Tarzan instead of throwing something (or yell into a pillow instead of screaming, etc).  I'll help you remember."  

 

Also something I've learned with my DS - simply being told no is enough to trigger a tantrum, even if I follow it up with an acceptable alternative.  An example - we have a pet chicken and a dog.  Last week DS was hitting the dog, thinking it was hilarious.  I said, "You may not hit her, that hurts her," and he yelled, "NOOO" and kept doing it.  I came over and said, "Pet her gently, like this," and he hit her again, looking right at me.  Infuriating!  We'd done this before - the second he realizes that I'm trying ot make him stop, he rebels and does it more, whatever it is.  I decided that next time I would skip the step of telling him no, and jump straight to showing him what he should do instead.

 

Later that afternoon, he was doing the same thing to the chicken, but even more because every time he hit the chicken she fluffed up and ran away while he laughed maniacally and chased her to do it again.  My instinct was to yell at him to stop, but without saying anything at all, I walked over to them, started petting the chicken, and said, "Oh look, she likes it when we pet her," and he joined right in.  Fifteen minutes later we had to repeat the whole routine, but that's par for the course with a 2 year old.

 

If you're into reading parenting books, I'd recommend The Emotional Life of a Toddler and Unconditional Parenting.  Happy parenting!

post #32 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by orthodoxmom View Post

 

I don't give much thought to those that see time out as a punishment.  If they do, then they are using it all wrong.  It does, as I think I explained above, have to be accompanied by loving words and hugs.  Time out is simply a method to calm or to show a child without physical punishment that their behavior is wrong.  This does not make the kid think they are a bad person any more than any type of discipline would.  And a child must be disciplined... not punished, disciplined.  Time out is a safe way to do that as long as it is handled properly, calmly, and with lots of love after the brief time.

Lots of children have benefited from time out if it's handled properly.  And without any negative self-esteem.

Orthodoxmom, I think that what you are referring to is what might be called a "time in" as opposed to a time out.  In a time in, the parent is there with the child, just removing them from a situation and offering love and support while they calm down.  In a "time out" a parent removes the child and essentially says "You were bad.  Sit here and think about it."  Big difference.

post #33 of 50

Timeouts saved my sanity!!!  For a short period between 22-24MO my DS's temper tantrums escalated.  The screaming, whining, hitting, throwing and I love how everyone is quick to say find the trigger!  Yeah good luck with that one when one second a perfectly content angel that a split second later turns into a nightmarish storm!  When it's over not getting their way, tiredness, or hunger they do it to be brats!  The most important thing to do is correct the behavior.  This morning for example: DS wanted to watch trains but he kept on saying George.  So stupid me turns on curious george and he has a meltdown.  What I do is turn the tv off and immediately put him in time out.  He can't hear me over his screaming but for the sake of my sanity.  I will say intill you calm down and behave like a good little boy you are in timeout.   I don't time it forget it!  My timing is the minute he calms down whether that be a minute or 10 he stays there.  The second he stops I immediatley say "I put you in time out because you were misbehaving and are you sorry."  He will hug me and give me a kiss.  You have to set some rules they need structure. 

post #34 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulu0910 View Post

Timeouts saved my sanity!!!  For a short period between 22-24MO my DS's temper tantrums escalated.  The screaming, whining, hitting, throwing and I love how everyone is quick to say find the trigger!  Yeah good luck with that one when one second a perfectly content angel that a split second later turns into a nightmarish storm!  When it's over not getting their way, tiredness, or hunger they do it to be brats!  The most important thing to do is correct the behavior.  This morning for example: DS wanted to watch trains but he kept on saying George.  So stupid me turns on curious george and he has a meltdown.  What I do is turn the tv off and immediately put him in time out.  He can't hear me over his screaming but for the sake of my sanity.  I will say intill you calm down and behave like a good little boy you are in timeout.   I don't time it forget it!  My timing is the minute he calms down whether that be a minute or 10 he stays there.  The second he stops I immediatley say "I put you in time out because you were misbehaving and are you sorry."  He will hug me and give me a kiss.  You have to set some rules they need structure. 

If you understood brain development at all you would know that they are not doing it to be brats.  When a toddler has a melt down they are completely out of control, from a pure chemical/brain perspective not because they are trying to be bad, be a brat, manipulate you or otherwise.  So you are punishing your DS for something he can't control.  I'm not talking about 4 or 5 year olds, but young toddlers.

post #35 of 50

We only use time outs at our house when a child physically hurts someone.  It's not really an official time out either.  We say, "We don't hit.  I can not allow you to hit xyz...I'm putting you in a safe place until I know you have calmed down and won't hit xyz". 

 

If a child is screaming/whining/begging for something, we say in a very calm quiet voice, "I can't understand what you want, can you please ask me with nice words?"  If the screaming continues, I say, "you seem very upset, do you need a hug?"  If the screaming still continues, I say "I'm right here if you need me.  Let me know when you're ready to tell me what you need."  I stay close, but I don't engage.  I let him come to me.

 

I didn't read all of the replies, so if this is a repeat of something someone already said, I apologize!
 

 

I forgot to add that if one of my kids wants to do something that they just cannot do because of safety, huge mess, what have you...I try to find a good compromise.  For example, my 2yo loves to climb up to really high places, then jump off.  He's broken his arm and has had a concussion because of this love of his (kid is super fast!).  So instead of just telling him, "No!"  I say, "Remember when you had to ride in the ambulance to the hospital?  Jumping from there is not safe.  Let's put the couch cushions on the floor and you can jump onto them instead.


Edited by Oliver'sMom - 10/23/12 at 11:57am
post #36 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by nstewart View Post

If you understood brain development at all you would know that they are not doing it to be brats.  When a toddler has a melt down they are completely out of control, from a pure chemical/brain perspective not because they are trying to be bad, be a brat, manipulate you or otherwise.  So you are punishing your DS for something he can't control.  I'm not talking about 4 or 5 year olds, but young toddlers.


I call it exactly like I see it.  When a child exhibits "brat" like behavior he is therefore being a brat.  I'm not going to sugar coat it.  I'm not one to just let my kid scream his head off for hours because he's having a "chemical/brain reaction!"  Seriously who says that!   They have no grasp of their emotions but they understand a lot more then you can imagine.  They are not as helpless/innocent as you are perceiving them to be.  

post #37 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulu0910 View Post


I call it exactly like I see it.  When a child exhibits "brat" like behavior he is therefore being a brat.  I'm not going to sugar coat it.  I'm not one to just let my kid scream his head off for hours because he's having a "chemical/brain reaction!"  Seriously who says that!   They have no grasp of their emotions but they understand a lot more then you can imagine.  They are not as helpless/innocent as you are perceiving them to be.  

I don't let my DS be a "brat" or scream for hours either.  I don't let him do what he wants.  I discipline him, but this is not synonymous with punishment. I distract him, remove him from the situation, ask him to use his words because I don't understand him...There are a lot of options and they have been outlined pretty well here.

 

Who says that?  Someone who's done their research.  Go ahead, do some yourself. 

post #38 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by nstewart View Post

I don't let my DS be a "brat" or scream for hours either.  I don't let him do what he wants.  I discipline him, but this is not synonymous with punishment. I distract him, remove him from the situation, ask him to use his words because I don't understand him...There are a lot of options and they have been outlined pretty well here.

 

Who says that?  Someone who's done their research.  Go ahead, do some yourself. 


Yet again contradiction!  "I don't let him do what he wants" ok but in your term it's a brain/chemical thing if he reacts!  If you really did your research and fully grasp just how the brain operates.  It may surprise you to learn that there is such thing as Cognition

 

The definition in case you haven't done your research:

cog·ni·tion  (kobreve.gifg-nibreve.gifshprime.gifschwa.gifn)

n.
1. The mental process of knowing, including aspects such as awareness, perception, reasoning, and judgment.
2. That which comes to be known, as through perception, reasoning, or intuition; knowledge.
 
So apart of growing up in this big big word is learning from your environment.  How does a little toddler learn from his/her
environment.  Testing boundaries! exploring!  OMG if I throw a temper tantrum mom or dad will give me what I want---->Imagine that! But
in your terms they are just these little fragile innocent don't know any better beings.  Toddlers and children know a lot more than people
like you give them credit for.  Also just an FYI think of the brain as a whole and not limited to "the chemical process."  GL! 
post #39 of 50

Including a definition of "cognition" does nothing to aid your argument, seeing as you've provided no evidence that tantrums aren't developmentally appropriate for toddlers or evidence of what toddlers are actually supposed to be cognitive of. I find it sad that adults call small children brats - it's insulting their own child. Tantrums are how toddlers release emotion and express frustration, especially if they haven't developed a large enough vocabulary to be able to express their emotions using words.

 

Accepting tantrums are part of normal toddler behaviour doesn't mean a parent sets no limits. But there is a difference between setting limits and gentle guidance (for example, explaining why he/she cannot have what they want at that time) and punishments like time out.

post #40 of 50
Thread Starter 

Yes, the more I think about how time outs work the more it seems to send the underlying pinishment method. Tat is just one way of parenting- and I can see how it can work to help keep kids in line. Another method is trying not to use punishments but instead teaching the child about appropriate behavior without punishments. I guess that was the original question I had been thinking about- when my 2.5 yr old was being a brat for a few days in a row, I was wondering if I should be instilling some kind of consequence for that to try to get him to be more polite! But after reading this thread ad thinking about time outs I know that is not right for us- as that  just doesn't feel right to how I want to raise my child.

But when the previous poster described how she uses time outs and they help her, I can understand that from her perspective. I think it is just two very different styles of parenting.

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