Stories of Vaccine Preventable Diseases

[prosciencemum]

I stumbled across this website today which hosts stories (written and video) of people who have had vaccine preventable diseases: http://shotbyshot.org/

Obviously these are anecdotes, and obviously cases like this are rare (actually I can see the parallels with the collecting of really rare vaccine reactions by anti-vaccine sites), but never-the-less I think it's potentially part of the research process to understand the worst case scenario of the diseases as well as the side effects of the vaccines which prevent them, so I hope some of you might take a look.

 Some really heartbreaking stories of little babies with pertussis. I wouldn't want to stumble across them again (bit of a downer for the day), so I wanted to give some fair warning on that. 

[Taximom5]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

I stumbled across this website today which hosts stories (written and video) of people who have had vaccine preventable diseases: http://shotbyshot.org/

Obviously these are anecdotes, and obviously cases like this are rare (actually I can see the parallels with the collecting of really rare vaccine reactions by anti-vaccine sites), but never-the-less I think it's potentially part of the research process to understand the worst case scenario of the diseases as well as the side effects of the vaccines which prevent them, so I hope some of you might take a look.

 Some really heartbreaking stories of little babies with pertussis. I wouldn't want to stumble across them again (bit of a downer for the day), so I wanted to give some fair warning on that. 

The way you've phrased it, you are comparing the worst-case scenario of the diseases with the "side effects" of the vaccines.

That's not a fair comparison.  You need to compare the worst-case scenario of the disease with the worst-case scenario of the vaccine, which are every bit as tragic and heartbreaking--and far more easily preventable in developed countries.

You also need to stop calling anyone who questions or criticizes vaccine safety/efficacy as "anti-vaccine."  It's demeaning and polarizing.

Many of us are the ones whose children WERE vaccinated--and suffered horrible reactions as the consequence.

[Marnica]

Also I feel that comparing these types of stories however rare to side effects that you feel are rare is not a fair comparison either. I don't see the parallells at all because nobody denies when a child dies of a VPD but the medical community routinely and categorically flat out denies many many many many many many (should I go on) serious adverse reactions to vaccines and refuses to recognize them as such. Pretty darn convenient.....

[japonica]

These are just anecdotes. I've had three VADs personally and could write about how I came through them fine with no lasting negative effects and about how one was so mild, it was unremarkable. 

[prosciencemum]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

The way you've phrased it, you are comparing the worst-case scenario of the diseases with the "side effects" of the vaccines.

But they are side effects right - they're certainly not something the medical industry is planning to happen when they vaccinate people.

I never said the stories were the worst case scenarios of VPD - although some of them are. And they would all be more common if less people vaccinated. 

I also had some VPDs as a child with little problem (my mother claims I had chicken pox 3 times which is a bit odd - I remember one of them as it was over Xmas which was a bit of a shame).

 And I personally know hundreds of people who have had vaccinations with no serious reactions, including my whole family and all my children. Doesn't really prove anything unless you do proper statistics does it. 

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

But they are side effects right - they're certainly not something the medical industry is planning to happen when they vaccinate people.

I never said the stories were the worst case scenarios of VPD - although some of them are. And they would all be more common if less people vaccinated. 

I also had some VPDs as a child with little problem (my mother claims I had chicken pox 3 times which is a bit odd - I remember one of them as it was over Xmas which was a bit of a shame).

 And I personally know hundreds of people who have had vaccinations with no serious reactions, including my whole family and all my children. Doesn't really prove anything unless you do proper statistics does it. 

 you've illustrated my point nicely  - Thank You. One cannot do "proper" statistics if adverse reactions are routinely denied.

[kathymuggle]

I think the Op has a point.

It is important to know the worst case scenarios of VPD's.  It is also important to know the worst case scenario of vaccines.  

Here are a few vaccine reactions stories:

http://vran.org/personal-stories/

http://sanevax.org/

 

There are 2 central questions to this whole thing:

 

1.  which scenario is more likely for my child- a serious vaccine reaction or a serious VPD reaction?  Using todays numbers and accepted risks, I think safety favours not-vaxxing in most cases.  Your chances of having a mortal reaction to polio vax?  1 in a million.  Your chances of catching Polio in N. America?  Zero.  

 

2.  This inevitably leads to the discussion of whether vaccines play a role in the low prevalence of VPD's.  If they do, should you actually vaccinate to prevent their return (even though that is putting your child at more risk than not vaccinating?)

 

Excluding mortality, I think you need to look at the nature of serious reactions.  

 

In the case of many VPD's, even if you have a bad case, once you have recovered, you have recovered.  People can make lists if they like - what are the possible long term complications of this VPD and how likely are they?   

 

OTOH, serious reactions to vaccines are often long term.  Let's face it - when people talk of serious vaccine reactions they say such things as "my child had a shot and his seizure disorder started that afternoon; my child has brain damage and we believe it is from the shot;, etc".

 

Serious VPD reactions are usually temporary, serious vaccine reactions are often chronic.  This is more a hunch than anything, and a lot of it comes down to which reactions you accept, what do you define as serious, etc.

 

Lastly, with regards to worse case scenarios, I think it is important to ask yourself which scenario you would prefer to live with:

 

that your child had a horrible reaction to a vaccine you gave them?

that your child had a horrible reaction to a VPD that might have been avoidable through vaccination?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by kathymuggle - 10/12/12 at 7:47am

[emma1325]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

I stumbled across this website today which hosts stories (written and video) of people who have had vaccine preventable diseases: http://shotbyshot.org/

Obviously these are anecdotes, and obviously cases like this are rare (actually I can see the parallels with the collecting of really rare vaccine reactions by anti-vaccine sites), but never-the-less I think it's potentially part of the research process to understand the worst case scenario of the diseases as well as the side effects of the vaccines which prevent them, so I hope some of you might take a look.

 Some really heartbreaking stories of little babies with pertussis. I wouldn't want to stumble across them again (bit of a downer for the day), so I wanted to give some fair warning on that. 

Comparing the worst case scenarios of the disease to the worst case scenarios of the vaccines is comparing apples to oranges.  Disease risks don't even come into play unless there is an exposure, which no one can predict when and if it will happen.  The exposed individual then must actually contract the disease, which doesn't always occur, in order for disease risks to apply.

Vaccine risks are immediate, active, and far less understood than disease risks.

[prosciencemum]

And if everyone stopped vaccinating many more people would get exposed to the diseases...... 

[emmy526]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

And if everyone stopped vaccinating many more people would get exposed to the diseases...... 

explain how the Amish don't contract  any diseases then...they go out into mainstream public, just like everyone else...yet i don't hear of  vpd's running rampant...if they were so vulnerable due to being unvaccinated, we'd be hearing about their outbreaks nonstop, and the USA would be in an uproar over it as well. 

[prosciencemum]

Originally Posted by emmy526 

explain how the Amish don't contract  any diseases then...they go out into mainstream public, just like everyone else...yet i don't hear of  vpd's running rampant...if they were so vulnerable due to being unvaccinated, we'd be hearing about their outbreaks nonstop, and the USA would be in an uproar over it as well. 

Well the Amish do get diseases. 5 minutes on Google gave me all of these examples. VPDs are more prevalent among unvaccinated Amish than the general community. The unvaccinated Amish benefit from high vaccination rates in the rest of the community just like other unvaccinated people: 

Pertussis outbreak in Amish community in 2006

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5530a1.htm

Nearly all rubella cases in 1991 were in Amish communities

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1454439

Last major polio outbreak in the US was in an Amish community

http://www.virology.ws/2009/03/09/polio-among-the-amish/

A study based on a measles outbreak in an Amish community

http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/163/1/12.short

A study of Hib cases in Amish communities

http://www.pediatricsdigest.mobi/content/108/4/e60.full

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

And if everyone stopped vaccinating many more people would get exposed to the diseases...... 

And?

I agree with emma1325's  post - you have to base medical decisions on the real  figures in front of you, not on hypothetical scenarios of what would happen if everyone stopped vaxxing  

I do not see the need to vaccinate my kids for the following as they are mild diseases: chicken pox, rubella, mumps, flu, and rota.

Diptheria?  Not a concern - it is largely a disease of sanitation

Tetanus - not contagious.

Hep B - contagious, but has a fair bit to do with lifestyle and perhaps where you live, I do not feel my children are at high risk

HIb - yup, scary

Measles - scary to me, not others...

Polio, scary, eradicated in N. America

The whole "diseases will come back thing" is hardly relevant to me across the board.

Edited by kathymuggle - 10/23/12 at 6:24am

[emmy526]

I'm talking about relevent outbreaks occurring today in the amish....we don't see all these diseases running rampant in the amish culture.  if we did, you can bet mainstream media news  would be all over it, and pharma would be advertising thier products more  because of it too.....and being as adults are not up to date, there is really very little herd immunity to be gained for adult amish.  

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

Well the Amish do get diseases. 5 minutes on Google gave me all of these examples. VPDs are more prevalent among unvaccinated Amish than the general community. The unvaccinated Amish benefit from high vaccination rates in the rest of the community just like other unvaccinated people: 

Pertussis outbreak in Amish community in 2006

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5530a1.htm

Nearly all rubella cases in 1991 were in Amish communities

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1454439

Last major polio outbreak in the US was in an Amish community

http://www.virology.ws/2009/03/09/polio-among-the-amish/

A study based on a measles outbreak in an Amish community

http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/163/1/12.short

A study of Hib cases in Amish communities

http://www.pediatricsdigest.mobi/content/108/4/e60.full

[prosciencemum]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

And?

I agree with emma1325's  post - you have to base medical decisions on the real  figures in front of you, not on hypothetical scenarios of what would happen if everyone stopped vaxxing  

So if everyone made your decision then your decision would change?

We don't live in a vaccum. Most of the world is within a 24 hour trip of every other location and people move about all the time. There is a chance (perhaps small) that your child will be exposed to any of these diseases.....  

[MountainMamaGC]

I had pertussis when I was 7. I remember my diaphragm ached so bad each time I coughed. I remember coughing so hard that I would puke. It sucked so bad. I was fully vaccinated, with the more effective old school DTP and I still got it. My parents were only vaxed for small pox back in the old country.They had measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, the flu. All normal cases. When I asked my mom and dad if any of their friends died, that they could remember, the answer was no. I have taken into consideration that chance and the treatment of all the VADs for my child. I even taken into account that I am immunocompromised. I dont view MMRV as a high risk illness for her, and most of the others are so non existant or treatable with antibiotics that I havent considered them as of yet. 

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

And?

I agree with emma1325's  post - you have to base medical decisions on the real  figures in front of you, not on hypothetical scenarios of what would happen if everyone stopped vaxxing  

So if everyone made your decision then your decision would change?

We don't live in a vaccum. Most of the world is within a 24 hour trip of every other location and people move about all the time. There is a chance (perhaps small) that your child will be exposed to any of these diseases.....  

You have to realize some of us understand that the key to health and vitality is a strong, healthy immune system that will be able to handle these diseases when confronted by them. If no one vaccinated, it would not change my opinion of these diseases. I do not fear foreigners bringing in diseases.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

We don't live in a vaccum. Most of the world is within a 24 hour trip of every other location and people move about all the time. There is a chance (perhaps small) that your child will be exposed to any of these diseases.....  

Did you read my post?  I do not care if my kids get about 3/4 of things we vaccinate for.  Actually, for some VPD's I would prefer it if they did get the disease as children.    Ergo, I do not care if everybody stops vaxxing.

As per the other 1/4, it is complicated.  I would prefer my kids did not get them.  If vaccines were safer (or even if we could really ascertain the risks - which is very difficult to do given all the conflict of interest* in vaccine studies/programs)  I might have been inclined to be very selective/delayed.  I do not feel comfortable with what we know and don't know about vaccine risks - so I do not vax.  I am at peace with this decision. I think it is wise to avoid drugs you do not have an immediate need for and whose side effects are somewhat unknowable.  This does not only apply to vaccines.   

*this is a long, but interesting discussion on conflict of interests in vaccination study and programs:

http://www.theoneclickgroup.co.uk/documents/vaccines/Conflicts%20of%20Interest%20in%20Vaccine%20Safety%20Research,%20Gayle%20DeLong.pdf

Edited by kathymuggle - 10/23/12 at 10:26am

[prosciencemum]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

You have to realize some of us understand that the key to health and vitality is a strong, healthy immune system that will be able to handle these diseases when confronted by them. If no one vaccinated, it would not change my opinion of these diseases. I do not fear foreigners bringing in diseases.

Actually I agree that the key to health and vitality is a strong healthy immune system. To me this doesn't include having pertussis as an infant (or other VPDs). As I understand it vaccines are a great way to give that a work out in advance of encountering the full strength version of the VPD.

[pek64]

I watched most of the seven stories. Unless I missed something, there are only seven stories. Only one that I saw about a baby with wc.

Several things concern me. Like the story of the woman whose child was supposedly being taken from her to be vaccinated, there were things about the video stories that didn't ring true for me. And either I missed the other babies with wc stories, or the OP made a mistake, or exaggerated for effect, when she said "babies".

The only way to convince others is to be honest and use only truth. Exaggeration and fabrication convince me of only one thing -- both sides are lying.

As it stands now, I remain undecided. I need facts, not fear, to make a good decision.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by prosciencemum 

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

You have to realize some of us understand that the key to health and vitality is a strong, healthy immune system that will be able to handle these diseases when confronted by them. If no one vaccinated, it would not change my opinion of these diseases. I do not fear foreigners bringing in diseases.

Actually I agree that the key to health and vitality is a strong healthy immune system. To me this doesn't include having pertussis as an infant (or other VPDs). As I understand it vaccines are a great way to give that a work out in advance of encountering the full strength version of the VPD.

Vaccines don't give the immune system a workout, they trash it. Especially if you are giving vaccines to an infant with an immature immune system, that was designed to work differently from an adults and in symbiosis with the mother's via breastmilk and stem cells from the cord blood.