"Teaching" kids that life does not revolve around them - Page 2

[LitMom]

Meemee, I get it. I let my kids do things of their choosing, with the understanding that it's going to end when it's time to move on to the next activity, whether you're engrossed in the first activity or no.

(IE-You can watch TV until it's time to leave for chorus, and then you will have to turn it off. No, I don't care if

(a) it's in the middle of a show,

(b) you *just* started a new show,

(c) you just decided you don't like chorus or

(d) you like chorus but want to skip it for today.)

DD does like chorus, but she hates tearing herself away from whatever she's doing beforehand. I read the Opera thing similarly. You tell them they are going to a particular event, and whatever activity they do beforehand doesn't change the original plans. 

Now, on the class, I think it's fine to require her to finish out until the break and then decide how she feels about continuing. I am more goal and academic-oriented than many people I know though, and I know a lot of adults who don't take commitments or promises as seriously as I do. I think commitment is an important thing to learn. It's not that life does or does not revolve around them, it's that once you make a commitment to something, you see it through. 

[meemee]

Originally Posted by mtiger 

If this were my child? I would let him/her quit. Just because she's good at it, her teacher likes it, you want her to do it? None of that matters if she's not interested. Sorry - JMO.

I just don't see the benefit of her suffering through an activity that she isn't interested in, simply because you think she should do it.

ETA - I also do not see how she is behaving as though the world revolves around her...

you know if she was 8 i would. well of course there is none of that activity when she was 8. it isnt age appropriate. she DID want to be in the school newspaper and cried when she learnt budget cuts cut that program. however she did want to try out this activity. but i warned her it would be boring at first and then it would pick up. and that's exactly what happened. they are participating more and she is enjoying expressing her views. 

if she was suffering no.

i think we've crossed a line where i now have to stand up and push a little. which means for a while she wont enjoy herself - like these two last weeks of debate. they were boring as they went thru the rules and what debate is. but she will eventually. which is now. when she is participating in debate. she is looking forward to going to actually seeing a debate in a middle school. 

world revolves around her? she has to hold her horses. all ambivalent things dont remain boring or uninteresting. she has to - imho - give it its due place and then see if she would like to continue with it or not. she is mature enough now where she can hang in there when the going gets tough but not depressing. 

she hated art when she first began. 3 weeks in she got the hang of it and boom she does some everyday. 

[serenbat]

Quote:

 do you have older kids?

I do.

I have seen other mothers/father's (especially with sports) act just like you and I have seen what happens and what kind of adults they turn into.

[meemee]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

I do.

I have seen other mothers/father's (especially with sports) act just like you and I have seen what happens and what kind of adults they turn into.

so because you've seen other parents do it and seen what adults they have turned into, you assume the same would happen to dd and me. hmmm. that does not make sense at all. though of course politicians always use this argument. 

LitMom thanks for getting it. it isnt that i am so academic. its dd. she loves thinking and then group discussions. 

[rachelsmama]

Meemee, what you're doing sounds reasonable to me.  It's not like you're saying she has to win all her debates.  There are lots of things she'll probably want to do later in life that start out boring, it's not going to hurt her to get a little experience at getting through the boring part to get to the interesting stuff.
 

[Bokonon]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

The more I think about this the more I feel very sorry for you DD.

This is way uncalled for.

[One_Girl]

I think kids learn that they aren't the center of everything naturally. I make my dd do chores, attend school, and stick with the classes she chooses to sign up for. I don't sign her up for classes she isn't eager to do but I do make her stick with a class or activity even if it isn't all she thought it would be. I am not sure if I would make dd attend something outside of school that she isn't interested in. If I felt that she needed to branch out maybe but it is hard to say. I do feel strongly about her learning an instrument next year and I am.already doing things to build her interest but forcing an activity that isn't important isn't something I am comfortable with.

It sounds like your reasons for making her participate in an activity have more to do with wanting her to find other interests than wanting her to be a debate champion. Maybe you could look up activities in your area and price range that fit with your schedule and let her pick one that interests her with the understanding that she needs to stay engaged in it until the end of the year.

[lab]

I think it is good for kids to step outside their comfort zone.  As long as you are talking about it, getting them used to the idea and easing them into a transition - go for it.

As high schoolers, my kids have to do a sport.  Period.  Two seasons.   It is not popular with my daughter who is not as athletic.  But she is allowed to dictate the sport she participates in.  

So getting them ready at 10 for teenage years and expectations is good thing in my opinion.   

[meemee]

LAB - the only reason i am working on this NOW because dd has entered her tweens. she has been so uncontrollably emotional (her teen friends thought she had started her periods which she hadnt) that it was a shock for me. i realised i needed to get my parenting act together - and realised horror of horrors i am NOT an intuitive parent for teens. thankfully our grounding has been good so dd has been able to forgive me - but at the howls of her friends - because she should be punished. HAH!!! dd is off the intense phase right now and so she is no longer reacting in a horrible manner. also she has discovered what a terrible number sugar and lack of sleep does to her. i hope its a lesson she carries forward.

One_Girl she has been WAITING to take part in afterschool activity. she didnt want to do the crafts one (even though she likes crafts) coz she found it babyish and kinda scrapbooky which she is not interested in. they discontinued the arts program (can you imagine not enough takers). so the only thing left was debate and a silly dance class which actually is a wiggle class. so she chose debate. i warned her debate initially would be boring. so she'd have to stay in it to give it a fair shot.

 i told you so.

they are now actively debating in class. no more informational stuff about rules and types of debate.

and she is LOVING it. to such a degree that when she was told their topic was the Federal Assault Weapons Ban she's been researching that at home. after she got out of debate yesterday she couldnt wait to tell me about school punishing Cyber Bullies debate they had yesterday. which turned into ok if you say 'what happens at home stays home' then shouldnt what happens at school stays at school and students shouldnt be doubly punished at home too. interesting convo we had.

for now at this time this is the most convenient activity for her. next year she will have to decide between woodwork and drama and she wants to do both.  

LAB i think you have hit the right words for me. Kids stepping outside their comfort zone.

[mtiger]

Originally Posted by lab 

As high schoolers, my kids have to do a sport.  Period.  Two seasons.   It is not popular with my daughter who is not as athletic.  But she is allowed to dictate the sport she participates in.  

Are they also required to do something in the arts?

I'm curious what sport your daughter chose. Does she actually play, or is she stuck riding the bench?

[Adaline'sMama]

meemee- I think what you've chosen to do is fine. But, I would say that since you are looking at this as a way to get her to be more organized about her thoughts , it is to benefit her schooling and I wouldnt let it go. She might not want to do debate, but what is she going to do to get better at writing and talking to people? 

[meemee]

Originally Posted by Adaline'sMama 

meemee- I think what you've chosen to do is fine. But, I would say that since you are looking at this as a way to get her to be more organized about her thoughts , it is to benefit her schooling and I wouldnt let it go. She might not want to do debate, but what is she going to do to get better at writing and talking to people? 

two things holly.

1. she has executive function issues. not bad. but still there. it will help her there.

2. she underestimates her skills. i want her to realise that she has talent that others recognize. she doesnt have to do anything with it - or even debate, but i want it to come from someone else that if she chose this line she could be good enough to compete.

3. she is a social person and a thinker who voices her opinions. i think this for her would be a good life skill to have. so she doesnt get into an intense argument. she is very emotional. hopefully she will be able to see when not to rise to the bait. dunno if this training will help with that or not... but she has a great teacher who is very kind around children.

[Adaline'sMama]

Right, I see what you're saying, and I think it sounds like a good idea that for her to be in the class. Im asking, if she is going to quit taking the class, how do you plan on making sure that she gets these skills? 

Or, I guess Im asking the people who think that meemee shouldnt make her take the class: how is her DD supposed to learn how to organize her thoughts and speak in a way that get best gets her point across? 

[mamarhu]

My reply is going to contain 2 apparently contradictory ideas. But they can both live in my head, so I guess they can both live in one post.

1. My father took me, under duress, to opera, orchestra, jazz, and rock (no duress!) concerts. Today, I love Baroque, hate opera, and have educated opinions on all sorts of music. He took me to museums, and I formed my own appreciation of certain art forms, and not others. In direct opposition to most of my radical unschooling attitudes, I think some exposure can be forced. Then the child has the right to enjoy or not enjoy something. And to repeat an experience, or follow up with more in-depth exposure. Or not. My son loves science or natural history museums, my daughter prefers art museums, but both based their choices on exposure.
 

2. This is a separate question from continuing to force attendance in an activity a child wants to discontinue. How would a person who had never experienced a karate class (just as an example) be expected to know if that is something they want to do, without actually trying it? If I were forced to obligate myself to a large commitment in order to try an activity, it might keep me from experimenting. I recently took a training to tutor English as a Second Language to immigrant adults. I start tutoring next week. I am really excited about volunteering in this field. I hope I enjoy it. But if it turns out this is not a way I want to spend my time, I am not going to keep doing it, just because I said I wanted to try. A child has even less experience than I do, and I don't see why he or she should be held to a commitment about a subject they have no experience to judge it by.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by meemee 

. so she chose debate. i warned her debate initially would be boring. so she'd have to stay in it to give it a fair shot.

 i told you so.

they are now actively debating in class. no more informational stuff about rules and types of debate.

and she is LOVING it.

What an awesome update!!!!!  This is exactly why we have the policy of agreeing to complete the session.

I don't think it hurts kids to finish what they start -- far from it.

I'm not a hard a$$ about it -- last summer one of my DD's tried a camp and got there and hated it -- the program was not what they had described at all and she was concerned about the amount of physical labor in temperatures topping 100. She called me and I picked her up that day. 

But a little whining during the boring start up period of a new activity? Push through! Push through!

[serenbat]

Quote:

 how is her DD supposed to learn how to organize her thoughts and speak in a way that get best gets her point across? 

IMO- as all the others that are not in the class learn to- usually it is done in the school class room (as in the case with a a child in school-like this child) with assignments (reports/oral presentations, etc) that are grade and age appropriate......one does not need to take a class in order to do, if you used that argument you miss a lot of children that way- this is an elective class

Quote:

A child has even less experience than I do, and I don't see why he or she should be held to a commitment about a subject they have no experience to judge it by.

 

children simply are not adults

it should be remembered that it is important to learn to finish what you start but the bigger picture is the age, 10 in not a teen nor should they be held to the same standards

a 10 year old does not have the same mental capacity as a 13 or even 15 year old..........it is also important to learn to make decisions and 10 is a great age to start........and learning that quitting is not an end all either, most don't learn that it is in fact OK to quit

having good decisions making skills along with respect are what make good teens 

[meemee]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

IMO- as all the others that are not in the class learn to- usually it is done in the school class room (as in the case with a a child in school-like this child) with assignments (reports/oral presentations, etc) that are grade and age appropriate......one does not need to take a class in order to do, if you used that argument you miss a lot of children that way- this is an elective class

yes it is done in the classroom, but many children like mine need additional help. while i help her at home (and yes you dont have to take a class to learn) its far better to learn it through another fun activity where its unconciously done - than to do it with mom.

yes of course a 10 year old is not like a 13 or 15 year old - but because of her maturity is nothing like a 9 year old but mostly a 11 year old. which is the reason why this is a good time to start. not while she is in the throes of high emotions where she cant help her behaviour. 

which is why its better to work on her executive function skills instead of when it seriously impacts her middle school or high school classes. 

the knowing when to quit is important. knowing oneself IS important. dd has learnt being bored is not a reason to quit. having your soul sucked out IS a good reason to quit. there is a difference and she needs to learn both. 

[nextcommercial]

My daughter grew up in my daycare, and I was a single mom, so she always knew she was the center of my world only.

But, I forced swimming lessons on her.  There's no choice in that...we live in a hot climate and most people have pools.  So, she was going to learn swimming and water safety.  If I lived in a big hunting community, i'd probably make her go to gun safety classes too.

I also chose piano lessons for her.  She went for one full year.  But, she never seemed to love it, so we quit.  

If she had a commitment, like a dance class, she had to stick it out for the whole year, because once you are part of a team, you need to be there for the team.  Plus, she loved all the other classes in dance, just not ballet.  (She needed all the basics)  I did let her drop Hip Hop right away, because she hated it, wasn't good at it, and it was early enough in the year that she wasn't part of a big dance.

[Adaline'sMama]

Originally Posted by serenbat 

IMO- as all the others that are not in the class learn to- usually it is done in the school class room (as in the case with a a child in school-like this child) with assignments (reports/oral presentations, etc) that are grade and age appropriate......one does not need to take a class in order to do, if you used that argument you miss a lot of children that way- this is an elective class

Not all kids learn the same way, and it seems like meemee is saying her dd is not picking up these skills in the same way as her peers. 

[serenbat]

Quote:

 it seems like meemee is saying her dd is not picking up these skills in the same way as her peers. 

that was not what the OP originally posted

if you read I was replying to what you asked not the OP-my comment does not need to be twisted - clearly there are other ways besides this class

certainly taking a debate class will not solve it for all, most tend to dislike that type of confrontation(as others have also pointed out), thus the reason the teacher said others have already dropped out, to many it adds stress and defeats the whole purpose of learning such skills