Question for vegans

[Neera]

If you're vegan for health or cruelty reasons or both what are your thoughts on ancient cultures consuming animals for food and for other purposes?

[catnip]

I think it is irrelevant to my life?
 

[Dia]

There are many things ancient cultures did that I wouldn't personally chose to do. 

[ShadowMoon]

Originally Posted by catnip 

I think it is irrelevant to my life?
 

Exactly

[catnip]

Snarky kneejerk aside, what are you asking? How people feel about the use of animals by cultures in the past? By indigenous peoples in non-industrialized areas today?

I said a few days ago that it is irrelevant to my life. I'm a suburban homesteader living in the Californian Central Valley. I can buy fruit and vegetables, grains, nuts and legumes grown within 100 miles of my house year round. Right now, I can pick fruit or veggies in my yard almost every day of the year, and I can get convenient vegan food that I don't have to make my self at more than 50 restaurants within 20 miles of my home. There is no possible reason I need to consume animals or their products to survive, thrive, or even just enjoy life.

[Doodlebugsmom]

Weird question. I don't focus so much on what other people (past or present) are doing or have done in their lives. I keep the focus on myself and how I live my life.
 

[caiesmommy]

I agree...irrelevant.

My ancestors hunted. They did that to survive. Back living in the cold of Canada with a very short growing season and not a lot that was able to grow naturally around here they ate meat. I don't have those issues. I walk to my backyard garden with multiple breeds of all types of vegetables. Get any grain/bean/fruit/veg imaginable at the grocery store a 15min walk from my door.

Do I think my ancestors were right for eating meat? sure...is it right for me? no.

What you're asking would be like comparing apples to oranges...more like apples to chicken breasts. No comparison
 

[meemee]

i am in awe of those cultures.

mind you though its coz i find people and cultures fascinating.

to imagine the inuits survived mostly on meat and hardly any veggies except rarely - i always wondered how they got their nutrition when here we are told eat your veggies. eat your veggies. how could they get all their nutrients living off of fat and meat? there is more to it than meets the eye. 

http://www.theiflife.com/the-inuit-paradox-high-fat-lower-heart-disease-and-cancer/

well you know if you are an activist cruelty does not always stop at food. it involves animal testing, makeup, toilettries, leather... so much more. 

at least in ancient times they used eVerything - every part of the animal. 

my friends eat meat. i hold nothing against them. 

[greenemami]

Dd asked me a similar question when we were reading the Little House series, kind of asked me joking around if I would eat meat if I lived during Laura's "time."  I resonded that of course I would, because you have to eat what you have to survive and they had to find or grow their food, period.  We had a good conversation about how we are very lucky that we get to pick how we want to eat because we have so much available to us that people who lived even in recent history did not. 

[Neera]

Originally Posted by meemee 

i am in awe of those cultures.

mind you though its coz i find people and cultures fascinating.

to imagine the inuits survived mostly on meat and hardly any veggies except rarely - i always wondered how they got their nutrition when here we are told eat your veggies. eat your veggies. how could they get all their nutrients living off of fat and meat? there is more to it than meets the eye. 

http://www.theiflife.com/the-inuit-paradox-high-fat-lower-heart-disease-and-cancer/

well you know if you are an activist cruelty does not always stop at food. it involves animal testing, makeup, toilettries, leather... so much more. 

at least in ancient times they used eVerything - every part of the animal. 

my friends eat meat. i hold nothing against them. 

This is the exact same question (about Innuits) on my mind. I read contrasting things. One suggests going back to old wisdom and the other that says all animal products are bad for you and cause havoc in your body. Old wisdom to me includes free of modern wonders like white sugar and all other processed foods but it also includes the use of animal products and in the case of the Innuits it seems like most of their diet consisted of it. I don't hold it against my friends either. I am vegetarian trying to go vegan.

[catnip]

I think that the human body is a remarkable thing that can survive on a wide variety of diets.

[pek64]

OP, are you suggesting that because human ancestors ate meat, we are designed to eat meat?

I think a more relevant question is -- where do you get your b-12? I have so many allergies/intolerances that it is nearly impossible to find a supplement I can tolerate. I tried being vegan, and quit largely due to the b-12 issue. That and my son never wanted to eat anything with beans in it.

[meemee]

Originally Posted by Neera 

One suggests going back to old wisdom and the other that says all animal products are bad for you and cause havoc in your body. Old wisdom to me includes free of modern wonders like white sugar and all other processed foods but it also includes the use of animal products 

i think i get what you are saying. what is right these days. 

its hard to know isnt it, because as science progresses we discover so much more. 

i think its hard to know because we dont have a good middle ground. its either the scientists or the alternative. no one kinda in the middle questioning either. sometimes science has been wrong, not because of science but because people misused the knowledge. eg. DDT, FDA recalls and then there are quacks in the alternate world. who is right?!!!! the sad part is there is that middle ground of knowledge. if you are at the right place you have access to it. but its not an access free for all. for instance i learnt a lot about nutrition by actually taking a nutri class. that class was huge and revealing to me. that should not be so for anyone. i had a place to ask my questions and have someone guide me to the answer or to another question. 

i too dont quite know what is right. i am assuming you are talking about paleo diet. 

i think today science and alternative have to work together. surprisingly they do in many parts of the world including Russia. their scientists can also be their poets. in parts of asia some of the most deeply religious are scientists. so it does happen. because if one tries to eat the best for their body - whether animal or vegan - its best to do under the supervision of the naturopath as well as an MD. they dont have to be mutually exclusive. 

to me an animal rights activist is not just a vegan. they also shun beauty products, toiletteries and leather products. 

there is one thing i know for sure. how hard it is for someone to eat the way they would like to. i think never in our history have there been so many 'nonfood' unhealthy stuff under the guise of food. 

but i dont think you can figure out your own diet based on what your ancestors ate. there are too many health conditions - too many genetics that affect our outcome. 

however on the other hand, do we really need to pay attention to our food? aka not wanting to die. i look around me and really wonder how is my dd ever going to eat healthy food when there is so much addictive food around us. is it fair of me to expect her to make decisions based on health rather than taste? i mean sugar. we talk about blood diamond and yet ignore the same principal should be used towards sugar, banana, corn. 

animal imho is just aspect of the whole picture. 

[catnip]

I don;t think that people need animal products to be healthy*. I think that there are significant ecological, economic, and health benefits to eating a diet of fresh, unprocessed fruits, vegetables, nuts, whole grains, legumes.
 

*There are a few exceptions. I'd hate to have to manage a vegan diet with multiple food allergies - my mother-in-law is allergic to gluten, corn, soy, acidic fruits, coconut, and all nuts. It's possible to feed her out of my kitchen, but it is really, really hard, and I wouldn't want to do it for more than a couple of days at a time (buckwheat waffles and pears for breakfast, hummus, veggies, and rice cakes for lunch, rice spaghetti marinara, steamed veggies and tuscan white beans, or black bean-pumpkin chili for dinner).

[meemee]

Originally Posted by catnip 

I don;t think that people need animal products to be healthy*. I think that there are significant ecological, economic, and health benefits to eating a diet of fresh, unprocessed fruits, vegetables, nuts, whole grains, legumes.
 

*There are a few exceptions. I'd hate to have to manage a vegan diet with multiple food allergies - my mother-in-law is allergic to gluten, corn, soy, acidic fruits, coconut, and all nuts. It's possible to feed her out of my kitchen, but it is really, really hard, and I wouldn't want to do it for more than a couple of days at a time (buckwheat waffles and pears for breakfast, hummus, veggies, and rice cakes for lunch, rice spaghetti marinara, steamed veggies and tuscan white beans, or black bean-pumpkin chili for dinner).

 i agree. in fact meat/fish is costing us dearly these days. i dont say be a vegan, but do say cut down on the amount of oils (which is hurting us too environmentally) and meat/fish we eat. you dont have to be a vegetarian or vegan to have an impact. its more important to cut down on the amount of meat you eat.    

however at one point we DID need animal products to be healthy. heck just to 'populate' the world. but each has its own time.

and now the time is right to consume as little non veg as possible.

[Neera]

Originally Posted by meemee 

 i agree. in fact meat/fish is costing us dearly these days. i dont say be a vegan, but do say cut down on the amount of oils (which is hurting us too environmentally) and meat/fish we eat. you dont have to be a vegetarian or vegan to have an impact. its more important to cut down on the amount of meat you eat.    

however at one point we DID need animal products to be healthy. heck just to 'populate' the world. but each has its own time.

and now the time is right to consume as little non veg as possible.

Thanks meemee you seem to have answered my question. I can't praise the vegetarian/almost vegan diet because of the improvement in my health. I am not vegan but my only intake is a v. tiny amt. of cheese now and then on my pasta. (Still addicted to it.) But I couldn't help wondering why this diet wasn't the right one for so many older cultures.

[Neera]

Originally Posted by pek64 

OP, are you suggesting that because human ancestors ate meat, we are designed to eat meat?
I think a more relevant question is -- where do you get your b-12? I have so many allergies/intolerances that it is nearly impossible to find a supplement I can tolerate. I tried being vegan, and quit largely due to the b-12 issue. That and my son never wanted to eat anything with beans in it.

That's not a concern for me. I don't have B12 issues. I had them when I was on a bad vegetarian diet -- not enough veges, fruit, lentils, beans.

[sassyfirechick]

There's the other issue too of the chemicals that are in today's meat - they just didn't exist in ancient times.  All animals lived off the land, not on processed animal 'feeds'.  There were no artificial hormones, livestock weren't regularly vaccinated or given antibiotics, and the land itself was not as polluted as it is today (waterways either!).  So 'clean meat' would surely be processed by the body much easier than contaminated meat, and one can assume it would also contain more nutrients than what we have available today.

[Greenlea]

Right, the thing is in ancient or past cultures they didn't have factory farms, animals roamed pastures, and were hopefully treated much better than the gross inhumane farms of today.  They didn't pump them full of chemicals, toxins, and hormones like we do.

Also, I believe they didn't eat meat in the quantities like we do in the US at least. Meat was more of a condiment to them - in soups & stews, jerky, or small amounts.  Mainly cuz (depending on how far back you go) they didn't have refrigeration to keep the meat so they did salt it and jerky it.  

I understand why ancient cultures needed to eat meat. They were killing the animal anyways for the hide, leather, fur, pelt, bones, etc so why waste the meat right?

[Neera]

Originally Posted by Greenlea 

Also, I believe they didn't eat meat in the quantities like we do in the US at least. Meat was more of a condiment to them - in soups & stews, jerky, or small amounts.  Mainly cuz (depending on how far back you go) they didn't have refrigeration to keep the meat so they did salt it and jerky it.  

I don't understand that since they had no agriculture in the colder parts then how could they have survived on small amts. of meat?