Are children growing up too quickly? - Page 3

[tiqa]

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie 

Are you saying that you don't believe that depression is unheard of in community/extended family-based cultures (there's probably some official term but I don't know what it is) not because depression doesn't exist there, but because its underreported? That could certainly be true. In America, its become acceptable and even in some cases fashionable to acknowledge depression, while in other cultures it might be very stigmatizing.

Anyway, depression is different from legitimate grief. In your example, the grief would be profound, it would be shared, it would be a very traumatic experience for the entire community, especially the parents of children who died, but that is not depression.

Well, no, I didn't think of it all as underreported.  As a person who has had depression a good deal of my life, I can tell with certainty that it wasn't based on whether or not I had family around to mitigate it.  I believe that a lot of depression is chemically/biologically based.  And yes, there is a difference between grief and depression, but grief can trigger depression.  Even if there are others there to share said grief. 

I'm not saying everyone who experiences trauma would end up depressed.  If that was true, gosh, the human race would have suicided itself off a long time ago.  But some might be more prone to depression than others.  *I* would become depressed in the children-being-killed-off scenario, most likely.  I don't think of it as a fashionable, in-vogue diagnosis (although many do... it can be trendy to be depressed, heh) and I certainly don't think it's anything to be PROUD of.  I think it's something to fight and something to move past - as any other illness. 

And you're right - it CAN be culturally based - someone who is lonely or even bored might equate that to depression in our culture, whereas in other cultures, they wouldn't.  They might use completely different terminology, or might not even acknowledge it at all.  But from my experience with it (both on a personal level, seeing it in my loved ones, and from studying it from an academic point of view for quite a few graduate courses... it's not always simple to dismiss as "this person needs more community".  That CAN be a part of the cure, and it's often helpful to turn outside oneself instead of doing a bunch of navel-gazing... but it's not always that simple.  And again I'll say that I believe that depression has biological roots (and/or components).  If your brain chemistry is off for some reason, all the extended-family togetherness in the world isn't going to be enough to mitigate that. 

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by nextcommercial 

*sidenote... I was in a theater recently where the adults brought young preschoolers with them.   Two of the kids had lightup shoes.  WHY would you  bring kids to an adult movie wearing light up shoes?  The movie was "End of Watch" which was very violent.  But, with LIGHT UP SHOES?

The only pair of shoes ds2 currentlys owns are light up shoes. I wouldn't think twice ab out taking him to a movie in them, because they only light up when he walks, runs or jumps, and if he's doing any of those things, we're leaving the theatre, anyway.

[kythe]

No one has yet brought up the fact that depression can run in families.  Each other's company and support does not make medical treatment unnecessary.  If anything, it can be hard for depressed people to live with each other because they can't lift each other up.  Both have the same poor coping skills and may feed off of each other's symptoms.

I've had issues with Major Depressive Disorder since I was a teen, but I've never seen it as "trendy".  I do meet people who say they are depressed when they really mean they are in a bad mood, sad, or grieving.  It bothers me when people act like they understand depression, then go on in such a way that implies they have no idea what true depression is.  True depression has no "trendy" symptoms.  It is a disability that if untreated can prevent you from living a normal life.

[tiqa]

Never mind.

Edited by tiqa - 10/30/12 at 7:10am

[Storm Bride]

Kythe: I think people who do that do it, because they don't really understand what depression is. They have no concept of what it means to be depressed, so they use it completely inappropriately.

I've had issues with depression off and on since my early teens. In my case, I've found that the trigger is always the same - a feeling of powerlessness. My first issues were set off by bullying at school (simultaneously, my parent's marriage was falling apart, which didn't help). I struggled with it all the way through school, and shook loose during the year or so after grade. It came back during my struggles with secondary infertility and miscarriage (again - no power over it)...and got much worse as my first marriage failed. After I dumped my ex, I was living in a basement suite, with boxes piled everywhere, and nicotine stains on the walls, lighting, etc. (long story, but it involved a house "flip" between me and my sister, who had lived in that suite...and a bunch of movers who were really pissed at me for dumping their buddy)...but I got better again. The next serious struggles with it were over my c-sections, as I saw no way out of them...and then, again, when I lost Aaron. I haven't had a really bad bout in a few years, because there's nothing going on in my life that make me feel as though I have no control over anything. DS2 can be tough, but we can see some light at the end of the tunnel and the most recent doctor didn't just disregard everything I said and make a diagnosis based on...whatever. (Doctors are frequently a trigger for me, because they don't freaking listen, and then I'm stuck feeling that I can't change anything.)

I believe depression is about brain chemistry, but I also think we focus so much on that (as a culture, I mean) that we sometimes fail to look at what triggers the wonky brain chemistry. I think that varies from one person to another, and some people are definitely more susceptible than others. But, I know that, for me, getting rid of the triggers, where possible, made a huge difference. I did take antidepressants during my first marriage, and they helped...but not as much as kicking out my ex did.

I could easily see how more community-based cultures would have lower rates of depression. As long as the community itself isn't toxic, feelings of futility and helplessness probably wouldn't develop as easily as they do in isolation. People's brain chemistry can still go wonky, of course, but I think it's less likely if people have better support. (There are also issues of diet, exercise and sunshine, but those aren't as directly related to the existence of community support.)

[pek64]

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie 

But I don't understand. It sounds like you are making a case for living with a larger community, not against. Because the more eyes that saw what was happening to you, the less likely it would keep happening. Other people would point out to your parents that what they are doing is abuse. Your safety would have been in having more people around you, not fewer.

Clearly I haven't explained this well. My siblings took their cue from our parents, and participated in the abuse. In fact, as we grew up they came up with their own abuses, which my parents participated in. Those in the family saw, and accepted it as normal. Spouses and significant others also turned a blind eye, as the older ones became adults. In the end, when the abuse was being passed onto my son, I drastically reduced contact with the entire group.

Why do I have *any* contact? Money. I want my share of the inheritance.

[pek64]

Tiqa, there is a fine line between understanding a depressed person and enabling the situation. I can't determine that from a few words in a post, obviously. I just want to express a word of caution that you keep in contact with outside people yourself.

[tiqa]

Alright, bowing out here.  I'm not sure where the enabling comment came from, but anyway.  This thread really is about the premature sexualization (or not) of children.  Not really about chores or depression or enabling or anything else.

[beaandbunny05]

Like I said, my mother-in-law does the financial part. They are her children, legally. We do the.. getting them home from school, helping with homework, making sure they take showers, cooking dinner, laundry, making sure they do chores and help out, set limits for television, reading bed time stories, talk about what to expect when growing up, help them get plenty of exercise... those kinds of things. She provides food, clothes, toiletries, gets them to school in the morning, (cause the bus comes just before she leaves for work), buys furniture for them.. those kinds of things. Her reasoning with the clothes is that those kind of clothes are a lot less expensive and it's easier to buy them when you have three kids to shop for. The 12 year old refuses to wear clothes that she finds "gross" (too short, revealing, etc.) and the 13 year old is a boy, so he doesn't have as many problems with inappropriate clothing.

[mtiger]

So why not offer to take the little one shopping?
 

[JamieCatheryn]

From friends, neighbors, and family I have watched grow up, I think on average kids are taught actual adult and mature concepts, such as responsibility, respect for self and others, individuality, and critical thought, too slowly in our culture. Flippant stuff about sex and violence and immodest clothing that get labelled mature are so decidedly not mature at all. If they pick up the real maturity stuff, they'll make better choices for the most part about the other stuff - sure while dabbling in some stupid choices now and then because life is a learning process. I do feel sad when there are issues with choices adults are making for them, like the easy to find cheap clothes that don't meet certain standards, or turning on music that puts negative thoughts and values into their lives. Search the thrift store well enough and you'll find nice things for a couple bucks and nobody needs to know where you bought it. But it is a challenge being selective like that. You said your 12 yo SiL insists on more modest and flattering stuff, I see that as evidence of some real maturity and self respect.

[beaandbunny05]

Because we have about $9,000 out for college loans as is... I'm wearing clothes that I've had since I was about 16. We can't even afford to buy a bed at the moment.. She makes $20,000 - $30,000 a year. If she saved up instead of buying herself new shoes and new clothes, she'd have the money to buy her daughter respectful clothing.. she just chooses not to. I'd love to go shopping with the littlest one, but financial, my husband and I really can't afford to.

[beaandbunny05]

oops, meant to say "financially".

[Banana731]

Weird tapatalk issue, didn't intend to post . Sorry!

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by beaandbunny05 

Because we have about $9,000 out for college loans as is... I'm wearing clothes that I've had since I was about 16. We can't even afford to buy a bed at the moment.. She makes $20,000 - $30,000 a year. If she saved up instead of buying herself new shoes and new clothes, she'd have the money to buy her daughter respectful clothing.. she just chooses not to. I'd love to go shopping with the littlest one, but financial, my husband and I really can't afford to.

You are 19 years old, going to college, and raising three children, two of whom are in or approaching their teenage years. Its obvious you care deeply about them and want to guide them well. I'm quite sure I wouldn't have done nearly as well as you are doing when I was nineteen! Seems like they are pretty lucky to have someone like you in their lives right now.

[beaandbunny05]

My husband is going for Computer Systems Management and I'm going to become a pediatrician. We both hope to own our own home within the next five years, and before 45, own our own businesses. We're just a bit on the ambitious side lol. Thank you for the compliment, but they teach me just as much as I teach them. We learn from each other.

[KayasMama04]

Originally Posted by meemee 

gosh i dont know how to answer your why. 

its not about maturity. its not about what they can or cant do.

its a cultural attitude. and yes most of the world does this. i have seen this in asia, africa. any culture which is more community based, rather than individual based. 

children CAN do all of it, but they are not expected to. when a 4 year old eats, the focus is on are they eating a varied diet and all that is on their plate. the focus is not on can they feed themselves. 

the things we focus on here, is not focused on at all in the culture of my birth. most kids still cosleep till they are in double digits, though sometimes its lack of space. no one thinks in terms of my child is 10. she should be sleeping in her own room or sharing a room with a sibling. it is very very very rare to have babies sleep in another room. the baby always sleeps with either the parents or the grandparents. i remember in high school when we heard about western culture putting their babies in another room we thought that was worthy to call CPS against the parents. but then there is not the kind of pressure as there are here. many mothers could stay home. which is all changing of course. 

children are meant to play and listen to stories. when we went back when dd was 3 my mother and neighbors took turns feeding her during food time and telling her stories. dd just lapped it up. however also at 3 she was following my mom and neighbors when we visited home in asia and helping them in the kitchen. so she'd have her little place in teh kitchen shelling peas or rolling dough or mixing something. 

heck some of my special memories about my grandpa were of my studying hard for my finals in high school and him feeding me while i focused on writing my answers. i feed my dd sometimes too. she loves it. shocks many of her friends. 

its all about expectations. 

i am not sure how to explain the difference to you. 

The hand feeding of a capable child baffles me, I watched an Indian mom hand feed her four year old, no fork just shoved food in at my daughters school. Why? I love eating with my eight year old but you won't see me shoving my hands into her mouth. I just don't get it.

[meemee]

Originally Posted by KayasMama04 


The hand feeding of a capable child baffles me, I watched an Indian mom hand feed her four year old, no fork just shoved food in at my daughters school. Why? I love eating with my eight year old but you won't see me shoving my hands into her mouth. I just don't get it.

mama - each culture has their own norms.

i feel this remark you made is grossly racist. or prejudiced. 

many cultures eat with their hands. not just india. 

many cultures even eat communal meals - meaning they all have a giant plate on which food is served and they all sit around that plate and eat with their hands, from the same plate. 

so be careful of what you say. 

i can understand you not understanding it. but be careful of the words you choose. you may not get it. i can understand it.

but is the mother really 'shoving' her hands in the child's mouth. 

[KayasMama04]

Originally Posted by meemee 

mama - each culture has their own norms.

i feel this remark you made is grossly racist. or prejudiced. 

many cultures eat with their hands. not just india. 

many cultures even eat communal meals - meaning they all have a giant plate on which food is served and they all sit around that plate and eat with their hands, from the same plate. 

so be careful of what you say. 

i can understand you not understanding it. but be careful of the words you choose. you may not get it. i can understand it.

but is the mother really 'shoving' her hands in the child's mouth. 

I grew up in a very large family, my Mexican culture was very important in my upbringing and I understand teaching by leading but I struggle with doing it for your child. I go to college with people ten years younger than me who can't balance a check book, decide on their own what to have for lunch and call their parents to fix their failed classes.

I am not racist and grew up surrounded by different cultures, oh and I share my food much like you described but rarely do I feed others off my fork and I have never hand fed by child. Yes the mom was putting half her hand in his mouth she came everyday for two years to lunch. I saw her do it often, she was the only middle easterner(she was indian I didn't assume) I saw who hand fed a capable 4/5 year old.

I know every culture is different I just don't understand why you (general) don't want your child to do things on their own.

[meemee]

Originally Posted by KayasMama04 


I grew up in a very large family, my Mexican culture was very important in my upbringing and I understand teaching by leading but I struggle with doing it for your child. I go to college with people ten years younger than me who can't balance a check book, decide on their own what to have for lunch and call their parents to fix their failed classes.
I am not racist and grew up surrounded by different cultures, oh and I share my food much like you described but rarely do I feed others off my fork and I have never hand fed by child. Yes the mom was putting half her hand in his mouth she came everyday for two years to lunch. I saw her do it often, she was the only middle easterner(she was indian I didn't assume) I saw who hand fed a capable 4/5 year old.
I know every culture is different I just don't understand why you (general) don't want your child to do things on their own.

you are a racist when you dont understand a culture's norms and pass judgement on it, no matter how many cultures you are around, just coz their norms are not the same as yours. its more about the language you use. though really i should say prejudiced, not racist. i am sure if you went in india another mom would be wondering why you arent hand feeding your child but expecting them to use the fork and spoon. 

its not a simple answer and there are many layers to understand. when cultures clash sometimes there is no need to understand. just to accept.