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Forced Vaccinations: Stepping into Eugenics? - Page 2post #21 of 25110/25/12 at 4:47amI thought one of the main points of the article was comparing vaccination to eugenics? Aside from finding tht comparison offensive and disgusting, it sort of hinges on vaccines being forced. No force no eugenics. Whether vaccinations are forced seems pretty central to the point of the article, to me.post #22 of 25110/25/12 at 5:44am
For the sake of argument:
-if you can convince enough people that a product is good and essential - perhaps through hype, fear and manipulation of statistics, then you can apply eugenics and you did not have to physically "force" a single person.
-if you can make life extremely difficult for those who do not vaccinate (you know, being able to send your children to school so you can support your family, or get medical care), then you can compel some people to vaccinate, and thus apply eugenics.
Edited by kathymuggle - 10/25/12 at 5:58ampost #23 of 25110/25/12 at 8:02amQuote:
Seriously?? So if I live in one of those 2 states, my child does not meet the criteria for a medical exemption and I have a legitimate religious belief that prevents me form vaccinating myself and my children and I cannot afford to homeschool or send my child to private school or move because I simply do not have the resources what choices do I have?post #24 of 25110/25/12 at 8:07ampost #25 of 25110/25/12 at 8:10amIt is also worth pointing out that the reason religious exemptions are in jeopardy is because of the huge amount of abuse and fraud surrounding that particular exemption. When people casually mention how easy it is to just lie and get a vaccine exemption or how outraged they are their date wants verification, keep that in mind.post #26 of 25110/25/12 at 8:30amQuote:Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel
It is also worth pointing out that the reason religious exemptions are in jeopardy is because of the huge amount of abuse and fraud surrounding that particular exemption. When people casually mention how easy it is to just lie and get a vaccine exemption or how outraged they are their date wants verification, keep that in mind.
Very untrue. Religious exemptions are in jeopardy because powerful pro-vax forces who want everyone who possibly can be vaxxed to be vaxxed. They decided challenging religious exemptions was the way to do it. It has nothing to do with fraud or lying.
Moreover, there is no way on earth to know if someone is abusing or lying when they claim a religious exemption, the only person who can know is the person making the claim.post #27 of 25110/25/12 at 8:38amQuote:
Tell that to a single mother in West Virginia who uses the time her kids spend in school to work, thus providing food for her family. Foods a need, yk, not an inconvenience.post #28 of 25110/25/12 at 8:42am
Definition of eugenics:
The encyclopedia entry uses word like "controlled" and "involuntary". Does that mean arresting someone? Does "forcing" always mean "by physical force" like removing children from a home under the watch of the police (in regards to the current topic)? Arresting parents?
What do people have in mind when they think "eugenics"? Nazi Germany? Or are they thinking of the relatively "softer" eugenics practiced in the decades before?
Mincing words is fair, when done respectfully.
(And even if no one can quite pull mandatory vaccinations into the realm of eugenics, doesn't make it all good.)post #29 of 25110/25/12 at 9:08ampost #30 of 25110/25/12 at 10:20amQuote:
While most people may be oblivious to vaccine side affects, I believe the companies who produce them, as well as our government is well aware of the risks. Using coercion and scare tactics to induce people to have a risky medical procedure done is unethical. And they are risky, however small a percentage of risk.
My own sister (I'm convinced but of course can't "prove" it) was vaccine damaged and has spent her 40 years in diapers and under the care of my parents. I myself reacted to a vaccine, and the clinic who administered the vaccine refused to acknowledge the reaction or report it. It was very scary and I had to deal with it alone, without medical support. Since doctors didn't acknowledge it, did that make my and my sister's reaction's any less harmful or damaging? This is the industry who has the right to give me an exemption or not? They make money off vaccines and have reputations at stake; they are not unbiased when you request an exemption from them.
Why would it matter about "lying" to get a religious exemption? It should still be a parents choice. It should be their decision to make! Medical procedures should not be coerced. It should be easy to opt out of them. And in the case of vaccines, it is not easy. It is unethical to put pressure on people to get vaccines when there are serious risks involved.
Eugenics? I don't know, I'm not in the heads of the powers that be that I can say that. Unethical? Dangerous? "One size fits all" medical care? Erosion of our freedom to choose? definitely.
And when I had that vaccine which I reacted to? I was told by the program director of my school that I would be thrown out of the program if I didn't vaccinate. If that's not "force", I don't know what is. Yes I had a choice. Be back on the streets, without a job, and be thrown out of school, or continue the schooling which had a promised job upon graduation.post #31 of 25110/25/12 at 10:33amQuote:
I am not accusing anyone of eugenics without proof. It is a pretty serious accusation.
ETA: While I thought the article raised a lot of thought provoking and ethical points, I do not think the pro-vax forces are engaged in eugenics. That would imply an intent I do not think is there, and have seen no proof of. I think the government is interested in public health - not individual health. They can make recommendations for the masses, I will make decisions for my family. I think BigPharm is mostly interested in money. I don't think either are in it to cull the herd, indeed, it is probably opposite to what they want (the government I live in is not evil and really does not want me dead; Big Pharm just wants my money - and only alive people pay for drugs. Alive and sick is better than alive and well, but that might be too conspiracy theorist…or it might just be right, lol)
Edited by kathymuggle - 10/25/12 at 11:29ampost #32 of 25110/25/12 at 10:33amAnd I don't believe there's a vast conspiracy of hundreds of scientists across multiple companies, research institutions, and government agencies, as well as government officials and business people, to cover up vaccine side effects and work against the public good. So that probably explains why we disagree.post #33 of 25110/25/12 at 10:37amQuote:Originally Posted by Rrrrrachel
And I don't believe there's a vast conspiracy of hundreds of scientists across multiple companies, research institutions, and government agencies, as well as government officials and business people, to cover up vaccine side effects and work against the public good. So that probably explains why we disagree.
Disagree with whom? Who said anything about scientists, research institutes, etc?post #34 of 25110/25/12 at 10:41ampost #35 of 25110/25/12 at 11:10am
Thanks for answering. I am not sure that quote is enough to ring the conspiracy theory bell, though. I do not think the general public is aware of vaccine side effects - it is not always on their radar. I do think pharmaceutical companies that produce them as well as many in government are aware of the risks. Taken at face value, I think her statement is quite true.post #36 of 25110/25/12 at 11:13amQuote:Originally Posted by Marnica
Seriously?? So if I live in one of those 2 states, my child does not meet the criteria for a medical exemption and I have a legitimate religious belief that prevents me form vaccinating myself and my children and I cannot afford to homeschool or send my child to private school or move because I simply do not have the resources what choices do I have?
Private schools are not an option either in those two states. They follow the state's lead and require vaccines just like the public schools.post #37 of 25110/25/12 at 11:27ampost #38 of 25110/25/12 at 12:40pmQuote:
Sorry but deciding between feeding your family (cannot afford to homeschool and have no choice but to work fulltime to support my family) or not is not a choice and is not "inconvenient".... and you didn't answer my question. What choices do I have?
Edited by Marnica - 10/25/12 at 1:17pmpost #39 of 25110/25/12 at 12:44pmpost #40 of 25110/25/12 at 1:45pmIt is possible to work full time and homeschool. I've said what I think about this and I stand by it. I am not going to go back and forth about it anymore.
Your child is not forced to go to public school, so they are not forced to vaccinate.
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