Where to post when "building schooled" kids are also educated at home and parents are looking for... - Page 2

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie 

I have found this site to be extremely useful for working with phonics and reading with my DD. http://www.fcrr.org/curriculum/studentCenterActivities45.shtm. 

So I said I didn't think we would use the games but I am digging through this site and I like the material. I printed page 17-19 of the teacher guide, which is basically a chart with all the sounds different letters can make. I actually think my DC will learn well by reading the teacher manual. Which makes me want to ask -- what kind of learner is that?  

I also really like their little table tent vowel chart for kids - need to count the page number and print that for her. 

Thank you for all the resource suggestions! 

[AAK]

Originally Posted by onatightrope 

What would the rule be for "ough"?  Off the top of my head, I am coming up with a range of words that end in "ough" with different sounds.  Although, through, bough, rough...

I've always felt like the "rule" model falls apart at some point and it's easier to memorize individual words than a complicated rule that includes all the special cases.  

I agree that the "rule" model eventually falls apart.  I mentioned earlier that we used AAS.  I think it makes a great foundation, but felt that levels five and six were really just demonstrating different patterns rather than teaching anymore rules.  It was more, this sound could be made by this or it could be made by this, but we can't really tell you when to use either.  There might have been certain circumstances that lead to one way or the other but it was not cut and dry.  For that matter, "ough" is a horrible collection of letters--I think we would do better without it. 

Amy

[AAK]

You also mentioned that she may be a bit dyslexic.  I must recommend the yahoo group for dyslexic support.  Some homeschool, some use public, private, etc.  There is a great post saved in the files section explaining the difference between orton-gillingham and phono-graphix methods.  

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/dyslexiasupport2/

Amy

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by AAK 

It was more, this sound could be made by this or it could be made by this, but we can't really tell you when to use either.  There might have been certain circumstances that lead to one way or the other but it was not cut and dry.

This would be fine for DC. We already do that (though I really need to learn to be able to recognize sounds and explain things better). I  think the way it's going to work for DC with spelling is a combination of knowing the rules (though considering how many exceptions there are, perhaps "rules" isn't the best word?), relying on memory to a small extent, visualizing, tapping out the sounds, "does it look right?", & trying different letters/rules until it does. 

So you don't use the link above for spelling - you use AAS? Perhaps I'll look into that again. 

Originally Posted by AAK 

You also mentioned that she may be a bit dyslexic.  I must recommend the yahoo group for dyslexic support.  Some homeschool, some use public, private, etc.  There is a great post saved in the files section explaining the difference between orton-gillingham and phono-graphix methods.  

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/dyslexiasupport2/

Amy

I am a member of that group, from a few years ago. I didn't keep up with it but will log back in and check the files. I am very interested in the methods and just learning what they are and how they are different for now. 

Thanks, again, everyone! This has been a big help. 

[AAK]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama 

So you don't use the link above for spelling - you use AAS? Perhaps I'll look into that again. 

I am a member of that group, from a few years ago. I didn't keep up with it but will log back in and check the files. I am very interested in the methods and just learning what they are and how they are different for now. 

My dd is dyslexic and a bit dysgraphic.  When we were trying to use ABeCeDarian, she struggled with how much writing there was.  The program has the child write the words into the appropriate groups.  Most people probably wouldn't think there is a ton of writing, but to my dd, there was.  So, I took the sorting part and turned that into my easter egg games.  (She hunts the eggs and then sorts the words that she finds by taping them into groups on the window.)  Then she sort of hit a wall and wasn't progressing.  This would have been 2nd grade.  I had also purchased the "I See Sam" readers and All About Spelling (AAS) level one.  I can't remember the order of that.  ABeCeDarian doesn't claim to be a spelling program.  I thought that would be good because the OG programs like Barton require the child to master the spelling and reading of a level before they more on.  I didn't want that requirement.  I wanted her reading and spelling to not be dependent on each other.  AAS is OG based, but at the time was just focused on spelling.  This program REALLY helped her spelling.  Using the tiles, seeing the sound choices in front of her, and methodically learning general rules was great.  We knew that there would be exceptions, but the first three levels have few exceptions.  Learning the 6 ways we divide syllables was really good for her.  It actually was the catalyst to her reading longer words.  I do like learning syllables this way better than the way ABeCeDarian does the longer words.  In third grade I dropped ABeCeDarian and just used AAS, the I See Sam readers, and Explode the Code Workbooks (we didn't do Explode the Code in order, but we used them as a review of what she had done in AAS).  We also got the Beyond the Code books and did them orally. I was adapting AAS to work for reading as well.  Then, I thought I must be missing something so I borrowed Barton from a friend.  Wow, did we hate that program!  I know that many people love it, but we didn't.  It seemed anal, inflexible, slow, and demeaning.  

For whatever reason, she sort of hit a spelling wall during level three.  I don't know if we will be back to AAS or not.  Either way, I love the foundation that it gave her.  She now uses sequential spelling on dvd and is doing well with it.  I can't imagine that she would have any success with it if it weren't for the background she got from AAS.  Also, at the end of 3rd I pulled out the ABeCeDarian books again and she did much better with them.  We broke words into chunks using the syllable rules we learned in AAS, but that is all I changed.  Now, we use REWARDS to help her with multisyllable words.  I really like it, she isn't such a fan.  

The people who created AAS also have a reading program now as well.  I haven't used it.  When it came out with level one, we were already beyond the scope.  Level 2 is out now and I think we are beyond that level as well.

I am very unconventional in my approach.  I suppose that many people would say that I shouldn't jump around so much in programs.  However, I try very hard to read my dd.  If it is getting TOO frustrating, she won't learn from it so we try something else.  We have our own little pattern developed and it seems to be working.  She is in fourth grade now and reading at a 3rd grade level.  I hope that we can narrow the gap, but at the same time it won't be the end of the world if we don't.  Right now, she is the only dyslexic I know that still LOVES to read.  By adapting our teaching to fit her needs, I hope to preserve that love.  I figure that she will have a greater chance of improving this way.  People who love to read, read.  And by reading more, it should get easier for her.  

Amy

[pek64]

Maybe some things are best memorized.

Ough

O as I'm though, dough

Off as in cough

Oo as in through

To me there's not much in the way of rules for this one.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by AAK 

Quote:

When we were trying to use ABeCeDarian, she struggled with how much writing there was.  

I think DC could get along with the writing part. She seems to like to write (the physical part). We haven't really been dedicated to this but DC loves spelling tests. It's so weird to me that I don't do them often with her. 

Quote:

I wanted her reading and spelling to not be dependent on each other.

I can relate to that, especially now. 

     Quote:

AAS is OG based, but at the time was just focused on spelling.  This program REALLY helped her spelling.

I'll look into it again. On first glance it seems like a lot of material to keep track of and dig out, which will be a hardship for us. The BEST program for us would be one that can be done on the go in short time segments. Perhaps that's asking too much. 

Quote:

Learning the 6 ways we divide syllables was really good for her.

Sounds very interesting - I think DC would really benefit from this knowledge when we complete the vowel diagraps. 

Quote:

Now, we use REWARDS to help her with multisyllable words.  I really like it, she isn't such a fan.

I'm pretty sure I have a REWARDS student book around here somewhere. What we had wasn't a great fit, as I recall but maybe it was because I was too cheap to get the teacher manual? 

Quote:

Right now, she is the only dyslexic I know that still LOVES to read.  By adapting our teaching to fit her needs, I hope to preserve that love.  I figure that she will have a greater chance of improving this way.  People who love to read, read.  And by reading more, it should get easier for her.  

I realize this thread is about me and my DC AND my DC has never been diagnosed with any specific LD (we haven't had her tested) but she also had a delay in 2nd and I'm noticing some similarities. If your DC struggles at all with fluency, I really loved "Quick Reads" fluency program and so did my DC. I attribute it to her getting over one her her lags as well as to her enjoying to read. You can sometimes find a used copy on Ebay for just a few bucks. 

[SweetSilver]

Originally Posted by pek64 


To me there's not much in the way of rules for this one.

No, but you could list word groups for the various sounds, and for some kids that would be enough to be helpful

1) Through, slough.....

2) Tough, enough, slough (as in "slough off"), rough.....

3) Bough, (thank the Americans for not adding "plough" to this list)......

4) Thorough, dough......

I'm sure this isn't a complete list, but it does put a tiny bit of order to a disordered language even though it is not exactly a rule.  And you could teach that the "gh" is silent sometimes and other times not.  It would be helpful to know this, even though there is no precise rule.

My "sight-reading" (lazy sight reading, really--pronounce and guess the rest) older daughter began overcoming some of her frustrations with reading when we were reading some Spanish/English children's books and I was guiding her with pronunciation.  She was encouraged by the hard-and-fast rules and was sounding out the words with confidence.  It made me realize that her particular trouble was her perfectionism and the seeming randomness of English spelling and pronunciation.  (She is not dyslexic.)  She hasn't been as interested in Spanish and her reading, while it has improved with practice, has slipped back into her old habits.  

One of her difficulties is the "uhh" sound (as in the word "the") frequently used in English, and represented in the dictionary by the upsidedown "e", .  I know there is a name for that.   The sound can be used with the letter "a" ("abrupt"), "o" in "from"(which the dictionary lists as "u" instead, but the difference is subtle) and examples using every vowel.  The other day she spelled "bunny" B-A-N-N-Y, which confused me as to why she would spell it that way until she slowly pronounced back the word and as she passed by the "a" and said "uh" I knew what had happened.  Damned English!

I love English language history and language in general (and grammar, mainly for historical purposes like double negatives, etc.) and when we come across a prickly word in our reading I sometimes say afterwards that every word (or "odd spelling") has a story behind it and sometimes I know the story and will tell her.  For her, it is helpful to know in general that written English came long after the language itself, and there were many dialects (due to invasions of different tribes to the British Isles).  It is quite the story.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by SweetSilver 

Quote:

No, but you could list word groups for the various sounds, and for some kids that would be enough to be helpful

I would love a system (perhaps I'll have to make it myself) that just started with the letter/sound combinations, any rules that go along with them explained well for the average person and then word groups to go along with the sound/rule. Combined with help for how to add prefixes, break words into syllables and etc. Very dry and to the point. I honestly think that's all DC needs. 

Quote:

For her, it is helpful to know in general that written English came long after the language itself, and there were many dialects (due to invasions of different tribes to the British Isles).  It is quite the story.

I see the future for us where (like some other PP's have mentioned) where I will be commiserating along with my DC about how confusing our spelling is. I can also relate to you talking about learning Spanish and how that added a level of clarity for your DC. I had absolutely NO understanding of the rules of English until I had to learn them in order to understand the curriculum of learning German. And, believe me, I have longed for the German language for my DC's issues with spelling. Though not for grammar. 

[SweetSilver]

For some reason I was remembering reading Mother Goose rhymes to them when they were little.  Two things I remembered.

One, it was fun figuring out old pronunciations from the old rhymes

"There was a little girl/ who had a little curl right in the middle of her for'ead

When she was good she was very very good/ and when she was bad she was horrid"

....or anything rhyming "again" with "rain"

The other, just messing around with the oddities of spelling/pronunciation:

"Goosy goosy gander/whither dost thou wander"

.....and anything that tries to rhyme "food" with "good".  That used to get a few laughs from the girls when I'd read poems in a way to get everything to rhyme.  

It's been fun to keep this lighthearted, because reading English can be confounding and frustrating.  

[IdentityCrisisMama]

More and more it's coming together for me. Seems I just need to read and read and get more explanations of the various methods before it clicks into place for me. Which is sounding familiar to my DC.   I'm loving this thread from The Well Trained Mind for explaining the various methods. 

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Ok...I'm just reading about Spalding and it looks like the best fit so far...

[AAK]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama 

Ok...I'm just reading about Spalding and it looks like the best fit so far...

I've heard good things about Spalding too.  Thanks for the quickreads recommendation.  I will check that out.  With AAS, we only spent about 15 min. a day.  I used the tiles and the teacher guide.  We rarely used the cards.  I just put them in a recipe box in case I wanted to use them.  Let us know what you choose and then post a follow up if you don't mind.  I really like hearing how things worked for different people.  The pros and the cons.  Thanks

Amy

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by AAK 

I've heard good things about Spalding too.  Thanks for the quickreads recommendation.  I will check that out.  With AAS, we only spent about 15 min. a day.  I used the tiles and the teacher guide.  We rarely used the cards.  I just put them in a recipe box in case I wanted to use them.  Let us know what you choose and then post a follow up if you don't mind.  I really like hearing how things worked for different people.  The pros and the cons.  Thanks

Amy

Yea, I sure will! Right now we're just doing multiplication tables and one diagraph/week (4s and ou) this week. I also just printed the Spalding spelling rules and a bunch of stuff from the links BC posted. I've going to read through it when I'm board during the hurricane. ;-) 

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by AAK 

  Learning the 6 ways we divide syllables was really good for her.  It actually was the catalyst to her reading longer words.   

I'm reading that article in the dyslexia support group on Yahoo - very interesting. DC did like Reading Reflex and from the description of PG methods, I wouldn't have guessed that would have been DC's thing. 

They talked about "syllable types". I assume that isn't what you're talking about above. But, I'm interested in both what you're talking about (methods for dividing syllables) AND the concept of the syllable types. 

Does anyone explain syllable types to kids? 

[BellinghamCrunchie]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama 

 I've going to read through it when I'm board during the hurricane. ;-) 

you mean... your power might go out... and we might have NO MODERATION???

:p

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by BellinghamCrunchie 

you mean... your power might go out... and we might have NO MODERATION???

:p

I believe you were looking for this smile...

  

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Oh, and I do believe on the spelling thread that I should perhaps edit my spelling mistake -- I'll be bored people...no one's strapping me to a board or anything like that. At least I don't think. 

[AAK]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama 

I'm reading that article in the dyslexia support group on Yahoo - very interesting. DC did like Reading Reflex and from the description of PG methods, I wouldn't have guessed that would have been DC's thing. 

They talked about "syllable types". I assume that isn't what you're talking about above. But, I'm interested in both what you're talking about (methods for dividing syllables) AND the concept of the syllable types. 

Does anyone explain syllable types to kids? 

Syllable types is one part of dividing syllables

1.  Closed syllables. . . the vowel is closed in, the vowel will be short (simple example: cat)

2.  Open syllable. . . the vowel is not closed in--it will have a long sound (simple example: go)

3.  Vowel team (digraphs): pretty self explanatory, the vowel sound is controlled by the digraph (simple example: pain)

4.  VCE: vowel consonant e (simple example: bake)

5.  CLE: consonant followed by LE (example: bubble. . . the "bub" is a closed syllable and the "ble" is the CLE syllable. . . additionally the e is there simply because each syllable must have a vowel)

6.  R controlled:  the vowel sound is affected by the R that is attached to it (simple example: barn)

Learning the syllable types was very helpful for my daughter.  Additional tips that helped her divide syllables was to look for compound words, to let prefixes be their own syllable, and in cases like "hotel & robin" is it ok to try attaching the consonant to either side of the word and then changing if it doesn't make sense.  So, she might try hot el and realize that it doesn't make sense and then move the t over to make ho tel.  If I remember right, it is more common to have words that are like hotel (open/closed) vs robin (closed, closed) but I might be wrong.

Amy

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Ok, very interesting, AAK. I read those descriptions of syllable types and have a hard time seeing how useful that would be for a developing reader...but I don't doubt that it would be. It's perhaps something I've NEVER thought of so it's weird to imagine it being helpful. I'm going to go over it with DC and ask her what she thinks.