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Queer, Pregnant, and Parenting! November, December, and January 2013!!! - Page 14

post #261 of 912
Max that is so exciting!!! I imagine how nerve racking this process is.

Starling I agree with you about raising lots of good boys out there!
post #262 of 912

Lillie--welcome!!!  

Max---ack!  Sounds like baby is just around the corner...good luck with feathering the proverbial nest!

 

Lise--THREE boys!!!  How wonderfully delightfully wonderful!  Our DS is the light of our life...and our next door neighbors when we lived in OH have three boys who they clearly were having an awesome time with.  It made it easy to picture a house full of boys...

 

AFM--we will hopefully find out the sex on Thursday :)  AND we are rethinking the first name we have on the girl name list...and we think we have narrowed it down on the boy name list!  It's funny how important having a clear sense of the name prior to finding out the sex is for me...It just helps me feel more relational to the in utero being who will hopefully be sharing his/her life with us.  

 

And, wanted to share a snippet from a song that reverberates for me in hard/tragic times...it's from Leonard Cohen's "Anthem"

 

"Ring the bells that still can ring 
Forget your perfect offering 
There is a crack in everything 
That's how the light gets in."

post #263 of 912
Wishin--thanks for that. It's been a hard weekend, for sure.

Max--so exciting! I'm glad the meeting went well. I'm so thrilled for you guys!

Esenbee--she's darling! I think pinkypinkpinkpink is fine as long as there's some room for variety in there. As a child, I had my entire bedroom done in pepto bismol pink--walls, curtains, carpet--which was great when I was 6. And then when I was 13 I got a crowbar and took out the carpet one afternoon. Good to have a ballerina outfit and a toolset, you know? Also, here in Chicago there is an annual dance along Nutcracker, which is just adorable. All the little girls wear their tutus and the program alternates between professionals dancing some of the numbers and open floor segments where all the kids can run out and dance on a big stage.

Planet--Oh, I'm glad things are looking up on the sleep front!

Lise--Three boys! Wow! That's going to be so much fun!

AFM--yesterday Edie managed to sit up on her own, clap her hands together, and semi-crawl, all for the first time. It was a big day!
post #264 of 912

Max, I didn't know anyone waited to find out the sex anymore.  That will be an exciting surprise. You are so close!

 

Wishin, is your DS hopeful for a brother or sister? Or does he care? 

 

Isa, Wa to go Edie!!! Shay did two of those in the same day too.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pokeyAC View Post

seraf--I think that religion is a good reason to circ, but the health reasons aren't that compelling to me. 

 

I didn't think religion was a good enough reason for our family. 

 

Angela, here is something about the function of a foreskin, just to point out that the argument with family members is brief compared with the lifetime of the penis.  Good luck with whatever you ultimately decide is right for your son.

post #265 of 912

Seraf--DS has requested a boy baby.  However, he also insists that we are all boys and that straight appearing couples with kids are also Mama/Mommy pairs (and b/c I have short hair all men in those pairs are the "mamas").  So, I don't think he really cares ;)  because he doesn't quite get what girls are yet...girls are just a different kind of boy to him at the moment.  That said, in some ways I do hope for a boy--b/c I think that DS would really, really love having a brother.  But, then again, I'm sure he would love having a sister too (and we'd love to have a girl child just as much as a boy child)!

post #266 of 912

700

24 weeks with triplets!

post #267 of 912
One last thing on circumcision and I'll shut up. "routine infant circumcision" is NOT the same as what it was when god came down from a cloud and told all the Jews to cut off their foreskins. It was something that was started as a way to control boys from masterbating. I've also read that it was really pushed by Dr Kellogg, who also thought that to discourage masturbation, children should be taught that their genitals are a source of pain, and used to drip acid on the clitorisis of girls. The instruments used in circumcision to make it an "in office" appointment were created by people who didn't give a rats ass about the comfort or safety of the baby, and cared more about making money and taking away potentially huge money making opportunities from those pesky surgeons who believed in anesthetic and bleeding control and sterile fields and all those pesky nitpicky things. It was also touted that babies didn't feel pain or didn't remember it, and I can absolutely assure yall that they do. Usually they go into shock after a painful procedure and look like they're sleeping, when they're not. The myth that babies don't feel pain deeply affects my ability to do my own job, because it's such a pervasive thought that it can be challenging to gt adequate pain control for babies who need it in NICU.

Ok, stepping off my soap box now!!! smile.gif
post #268 of 912
Wishin, we hoped for a boy for Osha's sake but he doesn't care a bit. Randomly, most of his friends now are girls. He doesn't really engage in stereotypical girl play, but he is happy to play gross motor games with anyone. Of course, he loves pushing his brothers around in a toy stroller, so perhaps my idea of stereotypical is a bit skewed.

CaNanny, you haven't been comfortable for a while have you? That is an impressive belly. I had a dream recently that I met a dad who was nursing one of his triplets.

Darth, I have also read that the circumcision of today removes much more skin than original cut of the Abramic covenant. Speaking of the idea that newborns don't feel pain, I recently read that infants weren't routinely given pain medicine for other surgeries until the 80s. Do you know if that's true? I would love to hear that it's an Internet myth.

Shay has a new eye tooth. Soren still has the spots and fever, which make him moan and wimper all night. The past 3 doses of pain meds have stayed down, finaly. Ari is all scabbed over and out of quarentine and Osha is being very kind, offering his brothers constant stroller rides. Of course, I have a totally different illness and hope to avoid giving it to the kids.

post #269 of 912

This circumcision discussion has renewed my strong feelings against it!  I ran across a map of in hospital, before discharge circumcision rates by state.  Kentucky, 86%.  The US average 55%.  California (where we eventually want to move to), 22%.  Now, I just have to convince DSp of all the negatives.  I think the only reasons for it would be potential social/locker room problems.  If we stay in Kentucky, that would be a valid argument.  Living in California, it would be more awkward in the locker room to be cut...  I think another reason DSp favors potential DS to be cut is for possible awkwardness for him during a sexual encounter and does not wish for him to feel ashamed or weird if his partner were to find him weird because of being uncut.  Again, living in Kentucky, it's possible, living in California, not so much.

 

wishin' -we have recently gone into the conversation with DD about Daddy really being a girl, but of course it still means that he is the same as he always been.  She has been a little confused and still insists that Daddy is a boy (short hair, guy clothes, looks like a guy to her).  Yesterday, we went to the Louisville Slugger Museum.  We went to the restroom and as we are going in there all together, DD says, this a rest room for boys and girls.  I just said, "Uh huh."  hoping she would drop it.  But inside, she said it again and I just said, "No this is a girl restroom."  Then DD said, "Then Daddy went into the wrong one."  A little awkward moment, as there was 1 other person in there, but they were on the way out, so I just stalled and said, "No, Daddy didn't go in the wrong one." until the person left, and then went into a brief explanation of, remember, Daddy is really a girl....

post #270 of 912
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by esenbee2 View Post

This circumcision discussion has renewed my strong feelings against it!  I ran across a map of in hospital, before discharge circumcision rates by state.  Kentucky, 86%.  The US average 55%.  California (where we eventually want to move to), 22%.  Now, I just have to convince DSp of all the negatives.  I think the only reasons for it would be potential social/locker room problems.  If we stay in Kentucky, that would be a valid argument.  Living in California, it would be more awkward in the locker room to be cut...  I think another reason DSp favors potential DS to be cut is for possible awkwardness for him during a sexual encounter and does not wish for him to feel ashamed or weird if his partner were to find him weird because of being uncut.  Again, living in Kentucky, it's possible, living in California, not so much.

 

wishin' -we have recently gone into the conversation with DD about Daddy really being a girl, but of course it still means that he is the same as he always been.  She has been a little confused and still insists that Daddy is a boy (short hair, guy clothes, looks like a guy to her).  Yesterday, we went to the Louisville Slugger Museum.  We went to the restroom and as we are going in there all together, DD says, this a rest room for boys and girls.  I just said, "Uh huh."  hoping she would drop it.  But inside, she said it again and I just said, "No this is a girl restroom."  Then DD said, "Then Daddy went into the wrong one."  A little awkward moment, as there was 1 other person in there, but they were on the way out, so I just stalled and said, "No, Daddy didn't go in the wrong one." until the person left, and then went into a brief explanation of, remember, Daddy is really a girl....


Yeah, me too. I just need to find an effective way to get through to DP about it. This is clearly an emotional issue for him, and I'm not sure exactly why. Trying to figure it out.

 

On the restroom note, since DP transitioned, we obviously use separate bathrooms when they are sex segregated. It's funny, I actually miss our whole family going into the bathroom together! I wish that all bathrooms were gender-inclusive. It's such a stupid divide. DD and I were once waiting for the bathroom in a coffee shop and she asked why we couldn't use the other one. I said, "Well, this is the women's room, and that's the one that I'm supposed to use, because I'm a woman." She looked at me like I was an idiot and said, "Mama, you're not a woman, you're a person!" Oh little gender theorist after my heart...

 

Cordelia, I love your response to people asking the gender. I had a happy moment at work the other day when someone who recently took my Safe Zone training asked me if the babies had preferred pronouns yet.:)

post #271 of 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnittingTigers View Post
"Well, this is the women's room, and that's the one that I'm supposed to use, because I'm a woman." She looked at me like I was an idiot and said, "Mama, you're not a woman, you're a person!" Oh little gender theorist after my heart...

I totally use whichever restroom is open. I figure if anyone noticed I would just look at the door and say, "Oops."

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by esenbee2 View Post

  I think the only reasons for it would be potential social/locker room problems.  If we stay in Kentucky, that would be a valid argument.  Living in California, it would be more awkward in the locker room to be cut...  I think another reason DSp favors potential DS to be cut is for possible awkwardness for him during a sexual encounter and does not wish for him to feel ashamed or weird if his partner were to find him weird because of being uncut.  Again, living in Kentucky, it's possible, living in California, not so much.

 

Kids are teased about anything. I was called "cow eyes." No one offered me surgery to ease my bus ride home. I always figured a boy who is confident can just say, "Why are you checking?" My oldest does know that circumcision exists. He saw a circ video with a bunch of other surgery videos and the circ video really bothered him, so he may be just as likely to say, "This is what a penis looks like. Someone cut the end off of yours." I don't really worry about sexual partners mocking him. They look a lot alike when they're geared up for sex and a condom covers most of it up.

post #272 of 912

seraf - I totally agree.  But for DSp it is just belief in the myths that have been so commonplace for so long, esp. in this region.  Back in my 100% straight days, I had a sexual partner who was intact (for blood clotting medical reasons) and it wasn't of any noticeable difference except when flaccid.  He shared that he had never been bothered by being different than most boys.

I just watched a video of a newborn circumcision, it had Spanish words as a description of each stage of the procedure and was set to music that was upbeat and cheery.  I was quite horrified at the procedure.  I would not want to do that to a son that I might have.

post #273 of 912

Lat post for me on circumcision Here is the link to some information http://www.circfacts.com/

 

This is from a friend of mine so not my words but. . "Also re the AAP released an updated policy regarding RIC on August 27th. It is rumored to be more in favor of RIC due to STD's/HIV. This is a actually a fallacy not to mention untrue and has been debunked for years. Germany, Finland, KNMG (the dutch), and the UK are all moving to ban RIC in their countries (even for religious reasons) because of the fact that it is a non-theraputic (medically unecessary) procedure of a minor."

 

knitting tigers. .  :) my other comment when people asked if DS was a boy or a girl after he was born was just to say,"boy for now"   I think also bc DH is transitioned that we appear so straight that it feels more important for me to be vocally active when people make these comments,  and also bc gender "expression, choice," is so real for us

 

seraf. hope you feel better

 

cannanny .. great picture!!

post #274 of 912

Esenbee, I keep forgetting that we're practically neighbors.  We're on the southeast side of the state, y'all over by Louisville?  Honestly, most of our friends lean toward the hippie end of the spectrum.  I know that most boys in this state are cut, but only one of my kids' friends was circed that I know of.  I would even put money on every kid in their homeschool co-op being intact. At library storytime (so the other families with the means to have a parent home with the baby during the day), I want to say slightly more boys are intact that cut, possibly because many of the families are international students at the university, but there are plenty of intact boys these days.  It's not the 80s anymore.

 

Cordelia, it says the benefits outweigh the risks but they don't recommend it routinely. I think part of the reason is so that it's not classified as an elective surgery so insurance handles it differently. The one kid friend who is cut was because of the aids studies and the parents disagreed so that tipped the scale. His brother is intact. Last I heard, his mom was sad that she gave in.


Edited by seraf - 12/17/12 at 11:24am
post #275 of 912

seraf-  I understand what you're saying about religion not being a good enough reason for your family to circumcise.  We are not Jewish so it's not an issue.  I just meant that if someone said they were going to do it because of their religion, I would understand.  While I may have strong opinions about something, I don't feel it's my place to tell someone else what they should do.  I certainly wouldn't argue with someone about their religious beliefs.

post #276 of 912

 I think part of the reason is so that it's not classified as an elective surgery so insurance handles it differently.

I agree but I don't agree insurance should necessarily cover it.  Most people who do it for religious reasons won't do it in the hospital anyway and if it was considered non-medical and elective I can guarantee less people would do it. 

 

And Pokey, I agree that I never feel in parenting that I have the right to tell people what choices to make but I do have the right to give an opinion.  And also for some folks female circumcision is a medical/cultural more and I sure as hell would argue with them.  Now before anyone gets up in arms, I am DEF not equating female and male circumcision and in fact when ballistic when some male friends of mine did when we were having a conversation about this.  I just think that there is a thin line.  Wonderful things have been done in religion's name and so have horrible ones.  I also feel bad bc my step sister, whose is jewish but whose husband is not had a son and she decided not to circ and her mom who is very observant basically guilted her into doing it anyway and I feel bad that so much pressure was put on her.  And again, I know this is not what you meant, and you just meant wanting to respect individual desires which I 100% do agree with. 

 

There are many people who argue that gays are going to hell bc of religious beliefs, that divorce should not be legal, etc and I argue with ALL of them!!  

 

Damn, I know I said I wasn't going to write about this again.. AHH, sorry, I do enjoy a good discussion though.  

post #277 of 912
Pokey, I don't argue with people about their religious beliefs. I respect a number of people who have religious beliefs so I try to simply keep my mouth shut (clearly failing now, trying to tread lightly). Someone tells me,"Spare the rod and spoil the child." I politely excuse myself from the conversation. Someone says that their diety will only love their son with surgical alteration, same deal (our own family). I believe in an individual's right to religious expression, so I generally look the other way.

Speaking of religious people I respect, Wishin, I enjoy your blog. I especially appreciated the post about illness not being a punishment for sins. That is a topic that comes up frequently at work.

Cordelia, there are 4 types of female circ. I believe type 1 can be comparable to male.
Edited by seraf - 12/17/12 at 1:04pm
post #278 of 912

I'm appreciative of the respectful tone that this conversation has had thus far (with the exception of describing the covenant between Abraham and God as "when god came down from a cloud and told all the Jews to cut off their foreskins", which I find extremely derogatory).  I have done a lot (A LOT) of research because I am so conflicted on the issue, and I will be speaking with my rabbi as well, and all of the sound, scientific research has determined that there are no ill effects of infant circumcision and no real health benefits either.  Because there are no ill effects, I don't see it as anywhere near female genital mutilation (not saying you were trying to say they are the same, cordelia), but more like baptism, a religious rite of passage.  Baptism may not be right for my family (for example), but I wouldn't try to tell someone else not to baptize their child.  Obviously circumcision is more loaded because it can actually cause pain, so maybe my example is not quite parallel, but I am trying to elaborate on where pokey is coming from.  Also, because there are no health benefits, I see no real reason for insurance to cover it, but most insurance plans won't cover any transgender related heath costs, so obviously insurance companies are not against taking a stance on moral issues and what is a "necessary" procedure.

post #279 of 912

Thanks for the blog shout out Seraf.  

 

I think part of what we are discussing is how communities are formed--and what marks an individual as part of a community--something that I think GLBTQ folk have a relatively unique perspective of.   When we look at levitical legislation and the other works (such as the Mwindo epic or Njaal's Saga) that serve as "early national legend" or primary epics what is interesting to see is how much of these works that are "rule based" stem from the communities' desire to differentiate their group from the wider culture--a way of saying "I don't care what your friend's family does, in our family we (fill in the blank)").  One aspect of group formation is that of specific entrance rituals (Victor Turner is an anthropologist who really lays these transition rituals out beautifully) such as: baptism, a bris (it's the ritual that surrounds the circumcision that makes it a religious ritual), naming rituals, the Eagle Scout ceremony or even things like baby showers and getting your license.  

 

So, when we talk about circumcision I think part of what we are asking is "if we don't do this particular thing, will our child be excluded from the communities we wish our child to be a part of?"  For us, the question was easily answered--a increasingly small number of individuals circumcise their male children (so the question of will he "fit in" with his peers was moot), there are no men in our family with penises we think DS's penis needs to look like (nor do we think that his ability to be in the community of men in our family hinges on whether or not he is circumcised), we are not Jewish and therefore there is no religious mandate for circumcision in our community, we do want DS to find sexual partner's later on in life who are more interested in who he is as a person then whether or not they prefer what his penis looks like (so in some ways, the question of circumcision does impact the kind of community we HOPE our son affiliates with).  

 

Those are just my scattered thoughts on the subject--all whilst wrestling a boy child who is peeved that I gave him a carrot for snack instead of one of the 8 dozen cookies on the table (we are making trays for neighbors).  

post #280 of 912
Wishin--what's your blog address? I want to read! (unless you have a different name there and I already do and just am not bright enough to put things together. That's definitely happened before)

Esenbee--ha! I don't allow DP to come to the bathroom with me. Ever. It's a weird hangup of mine. I hate it when my friends try to come with me, too--I know that most women go to the bathroom in herds when out in public, but I really (really) prefer to go alone. I am leery of men's rooms just because they always seem to be so much more disgusting than the ones marked for women, but if there's much of a line I'll go for whatever opens up first, as long as no one is in there using the urinals at the same time.

AFM--my poor baby has pinkeye. Ugh. She got it at daycare and now has goopy eyes and a bad attitude (and some eye drops and advil). I was home all day with her and she would only nap when I laid down with her, which was sweet, but I'm exhausted. Hopefully tomorrow it'll have cleared up enough to go to school again!
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