Sometimes birth satisfaction is spelt c-e-s-a-r-e-a-n - Page 3

[erigeron]

What kind of birth a woman has doesn't directly impact anyone other than the woman and the baby. It's one thing to speak up about someone else's birth because of serious safety concerns for one party, but the research on elective cs vs vaginal birth seems to be fairly inconclusive. So there's no reason for anyone to freak out on the grounds of concern for her or her baby. Awaitingjuno has (or should have) the option to choose an elective cs for herself and I don't think what she or any other one individual does has a direct impact on another unconnected person. She certainly isn't advocating that everyone should do what she is doing, only that everyone should have the choice. Her choice isn't a criticism of anyone else who made different choices. Nobody needs to "fix" her by talking her into making a different choice. 

Further, there's a lot of "choice" rhetoric on MDC in favor of choices that are a lot riskier than CDMR, but somehow a lot of other things get a pass where this doesn't. 

[Linnaea]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

Seriously, what are you even talking about here? Are you saying every time one person chooses something different than another, they are making a judgment on them?

I've explained it as clearly as I can a few different times.  Why is it so difficult to wrap your head around?  Please re-read what I said, chew on it for a little while and then get back to me, if you so desire.

Originally Posted by AwaitingJuno 

Thank-you Storm Bride.

Linnea - you are coming across as really, really offensive.  In fact you are coming across as exactly the kind of AP/Natural parent that gives the movement a bad name - the sort that cannot fathom that people might make different choices without somehow offending the choices you yourself have made, the sort that needs to make others feel bad about the choices that they have made in order to feel good about their own choices, the sort that puts specific choices as being some kind of "gold standard" of parenting without allowing for the nuances that individual lives often have.  You are exactly the kind of woman I avoided during my pregnancy because associating with women like you would cause me to have flashbacks to my first delivery and severe anxiety that my next delivery would wind up being a repeat.  You are exactly the kind of person that would remind me that some health care provider might assert their view of a "good birth" and disregard my view of a "good birth".  

Do not miss the forest for the trees.

So I'm your boogeyman, so to speak?  The very epitome of what you don't like?  Right back at ya   I simply don't tolerate BS and you coming here, knowing full well that your choices don't really fit into the scope of what this forum is about is reprehensible to me.  You got lucky that the people reading this are trying to relate to you and be accepting of other people's choices, but it's really not in line with AP.  That doesn't mean you can't find support from different people both here and elsewhere, but don't kid yourself.  It's not some elitist mindset or group, it's simply a way of life.  Not everything I've done is AP, either, but you don't see me going around pretending like it is.  I honestly don't care if you're cut open or how you feel about it, but to wave it around like it's superior to vaginal birth on a website that promotes NATURAL means of parenting is repugnant at best.  So, no, I'm not like the health care providers who assert their view of a "good birth", I'm more like the annoying person in the classroom who speaks up when she smells bullsh$t.  Also, don't forget what I've mentioned a few times now that people are having a hard time wrapping their heads around.  Or maybe you should chew on it for a bit, too, to get my point.

Stormbride: We're not discussing "someone" here, we're discussing AwaitingJuno. For this woman in particular, she didn't need an epidural, she was not a high-risk patient, she simply wanted a c-section.  Let's not get carried away with other people's stories and reasoning, there's really no need.  Also, you're right about all of us being different--in her case, vaginal birth would have made perfect sense, but because she looked at the statistics created by mothers and babies, she saw that the only sensible choice in her normal situation was to have her baby surgically removed.  Thus, all of us who are also low-risk are not looking at the statistics properly and we're not scared enough of cerebral palsy and forceps problems and whatever else.  Don't kid yourself--she is being very judgmental and offensive and it is not in favor of us low-risk vaginal birthers.  

I think my "offensiveness" is a natural gift, thank you for asking   The reason why I said that statement the way I did is because, oftentimes, women are forced into having repeat c-sections and when or if they take the time to look at the facts they see that they probably could or can have a successful vaginal birth.  You're right, for some it's not possible.  But from what I've seen, the majority are capable of it and they're being told otherwise.

[WildKingdom]

Wow. My mind is blown. That's all I've got. Someone comes here to post her birth story and this is the response it gets?

Here's a bit of free advice. When a mom posts her birth story and she is happy about it, the only acceptable response is, "congratulations!" When someone posts a birth story and she is unhappy about it, the only acceptable response is to offer support and sympathy.

[erinmattsmom88]

Umm. what about the kid? How about doing what's best for the child first. Nothing else matters. I find the reasoning the OP had to want a c-section was selfish. Sorry to offend, but it was. I'm glad things turned out OK for her and her child, and am glad that she was able to have the opportunity to make a choice and control her healthcare. But, coming from someone who has had two c-sections, this is not something to be taken lightly AT ALL. The risks of complications from c-sections, to the mother and baby, would not be worth it to me to want to do it just because. Someone on here said that it's less risky for the baby to be born via c-section versus vaginal birth. Not in my case. My second child had transient tachypnea of the newborn. He was born at 39 weeks via scheduled c-section. He came out kicking and screaming then suddenly went blue. He was resuscitated then went blue again. That's when a code was called and suddenly 10 more people were in the room. There I lay totally helpless while my poor newborn was being suctioned, pricked, prodded and who knows what else... I couldn't see everything. Talk about trauma. Talk about not getting a nice childbirth story. Talk about things not going your way. He spent nine days in the NICU in a hospital that was 40 miles away, one way. I traveled twice a day for those nine days with breastmilk for him with no family around to help (just husband, who had to work too)  all while healing from my surgery and taking care of another child. It was not easy. I was told that babies have a higher likelihood of this happening to them when they are born via elective c-section... meaning without a trial of labor. It is even more likely to happen to boys. He's fine now... a healthy 2.5 year-old. I just feel that the OP has minimized the seriousness of c-sections to justify her story. Again, I'm glad she had the type of childbirth SHE wanted, but what if something bad happened? Would she still have felt OK with her choice if it had a negative impact on the child like it did to me? To clarify, I did not want another c-section. I had several medical reasons why I had one. I really, REALLY wanted to do a VBAC, but it was not meant to be. I felt it necessary to comment here because of what I went through. I know vaginal birth has its risks too, but from where I'm standing, c-sections are far riskier.

[WildKingdom]

Umm. what about the kid? How about doing what's best for the child first. Nothing else matters.

So, are people who choose to VBAC selfish? It is a higher risk than having a repeat section. What about people who UC? Someone recently did a survey in the UC forum and the infant death rate was about 6%.

[erinmattsmom88]

Wow. My mind is blown. That's all I've got. Someone comes here to post her birth story and this is the response it gets?

Here's a bit of free advice. When a mom posts her birth story and she is happy about it, the only acceptable response is, "congratulations!" When someone posts a birth story and she is unhappy about it, the only acceptable response is to offer support and sympathy.

As long as people post their personal business on a public forum then they will be exposed to all types of responses and should be prepared for it.

[erinmattsmom88]

So, are people who choose to VBAC selfish? It is a higher risk than having a repeat section. What about people who UC? Someone recently did a survey in the UC forum and the infant death rate was about 6%.

Yes, a person is being selfish if they choose to do something that is a risk to another person. PERIOD. I wanted to have a VBAC very badly, but had 7-8 risk factors that made it an impossibility. It would have been extremely selfish of me to insist on doing that knowing my risk factors.

[WildKingdom]

Originally Posted by erinmattsmom88 

Yes, a person is being selfish if they choose to do something that is a risk to another person. PERIOD. I wanted to have a VBAC very badly, but had 7-8 risk factors that made it an impossibility. It would have been extremely selfish of me to insist on doing that knowing my risk factors.

According to this, the risk of infant death is higher for VBAC than planned repeat section. That was for low risk women who were considered to be good candidate for VBAC. So, does that make every woman who posts a birth story on MDC about a successful VBAC a candidate for a scolding about her selfish choices?

http://www.m.webmd.com/baby/news/20120313/are-repeat-c-sections-safer-than-natural-birth?page=3

[Linnaea]

And I can admit that I was selfish for having a UC, though I didn't see it like that at the time.  

Thank you for sharing your story, Erin.  I'm very sorry that happened to you and your little boy.  I appreciate you demonstrating how the risks of c-section shouldn't be downgraded to justify people's fears or perceived risks/benefits.  There are HUGE risks with c-section and I think a big reason for that is because it's not natural.  Yes, I said it, NATURAL.  The very thing AP is based on.  We look to nature to guide us when it comes to raising our kids.  Sometimes we look to doctors and other care providers, but nature's wisdom is the foundation.  At least this is how I interpret it.

[Linnaea]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 


According to this, the risk of infant death is higher for VBAC than planned repeat section. That was for low risk women who were considered to be good candidate for VBAC. So, does that make every woman who posts a birth story on MDC about a successful VBAC a candidate for a scolding about her selfish choices?
http://www.m.webmd.com/baby/news/20120313/are-repeat-c-sections-safer-than-natural-birth?page=3

Many studies place the rupture rate at less than 1% (said by a midwife I respect).  Also, studies have shown that the risk of rupture is 4 times higher if the mother has had pitocin.  One medical journal concluded: In over 21,000 planned labors after cesarean, five babies were reported to have died in association with scar rupture (0.02%).

[AwaitingJuno]

Actually the data I have (large study in BC) showed that the risks of elective c-section accrue to the mother and future pregnancies (placenta previa/accreta etc.) and there is a 67% reduction in serious neonatal morbidity (things like cerebral palsy, brachial plexus, death).  Yes there is an increase in the risk of TTPN, however that tends to result in a NICU stay and does not tend to result in long-term morbidity and/or mortality.  A cesarean at term (39 weeks or later) is the safest way for a baby to be born - even though there are other trade-offs (like the increase in risk of TTPN).  Far more babies need resuscitation after a vaginal birth than after a caesarean birth.  The vast majority of studies show that home birth is significantly more dangerous to the baby (300% more likely to result in death) - but tends to be safer for the mother.  I prefer to get my data from places like PubMed as opposed to childbirth connection...

That being said I totally get why many (the vast majority) mothers prefer vaginal birth - it being more natural and more likely to have a shorter recovery and safer for mothers planning larger families (more than two children).  I support women who choose to VBAC and think that access to hospitals that support this option should be improved.  Regardless of birth choice - most moms want a healthy outcome and should be entitled to information regarding their choices and access to highly skilled healthcare providers who can make whatever choice the mother makes as safe as possible.   

Regardless - I feel as though my choice was a safe choice for myself and for my child.  I am very satisfied with it - and really don't care what others may think of my choice as I would never tell them what they should do with their body as that is their choice.  I do appreciate the supportive comments though.

[erinmattsmom88]

According to this, the risk of infant death is higher for VBAC than planned repeat section. That was for low risk women who were considered to be good candidate for VBAC. So, does that make every woman who posts a birth story on MDC about a successful VBAC a candidate for a scolding about her selfish choices?
 

In the end, it still didn't matter. The c-section resulted in my son having a life threatening complication.

Let me clarify... in the respect of childbirth, no matter what, things are risky. Everyone knows this. However, you can do things to help lessen the risks and have a good outcome. In my case, that didn't happen. Luckily, after that traumatic experience, my son recovered without incident. It is my opinion based on my experience that the reasoning the OP gave for choosing an elective c-section was selfish. What happened to me could have happened to her. I don't appreciate her minimizing the risks of c-section to justify her choice especially after what I went through. I consider my situation as not having much of a choice. She had one and chose the riskier of the two for her own comfort. To me, that is selfish. In my original post I said that I was happy that she got what she wanted, but again, from where I'm standing, what she did doesn't make much sense to me.

[erinmattsmom88]

Also, studies have shown that the risk of rupture is 4 times higher if the mother has had pitocin

Yep, my doctor told me, after I said no induction, that the chances for a successful VBAC will be greater with a natural progression of labor verses being induced.

[WildKingdom]

Let me clarify... in the respect of childbirth, no matter what, things are risky. Everyone knows this. However, you can do things to help lessen the risks and have a good outcome. In my case, that didn't happen. Luckily, after that traumatic experience, my son recovered without incident. It is my opinion based on my experience that the reasoning the OP gave for choosing an elective c-section was selfish. What happened to me could have happened to her. I don't appreciate her minimizing the risks of c-section to justify her choice especially after what I went through. I consider my situation as not having much of a choice. She had one and chose the riskier of the two for her own comfort. To me, that is selfish. In my original post I said that I was happy that she got what she wanted, but again, from where I'm standing, what she did doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm not stating my question clearly. Would you feel it is acceptable to scold a mother who wrote a story about her successful VBAC on MDC and call her selfish? VBAC is more risky to the baby, and you yourself stated that the only thing that matters is the child. I am not talking about your birth experience, just this hypothetical situation.

[Linnaea]

Originally Posted by AwaitingJuno 

Actually the data I have (large study in BC) showed that the risks of elective c-section accrue to the mother and future pregnancies (placenta previa/accreta etc.) and there is a 67% reduction in serious neonatal morbidity (things like cerebral palsy, brachial plexus, death).  Yes there is an increase in the risk of TTPN, however that tends to result in a NICU stay and does not tend to result in long-term morbidity and/or mortality.  A cesarean at term (39 weeks or later) is the safest way for a baby to be born - even though there are other trade-offs (like the increase in risk of TTPN).  Far more babies need resuscitation after a vaginal birth than after a caesarean birth.  The vast majority of studies show that home birth is significantly more dangerous to the baby (300% more likely to result in death) - but tends to be safer for the mother.  I prefer to get my data from places like PubMed as opposed to childbirth connection...

That being said I totally get why many (the vast majority) mothers prefer vaginal birth - it being more natural and more likely to have a shorter recovery and safer for mothers planning larger families (more than two children).  I support women who choose to VBAC and think that access to hospitals that support this option should be improved.  Regardless of birth choice - most moms want a healthy outcome and should be entitled to information regarding their choices and access to highly skilled healthcare providers who can make whatever choice the mother makes as safe as possible.   

Regardless - I feel as though my choice was a safe choice for myself and for my child.  I am very satisfied with it - and really don't care what others may think of my choice as I would never tell them what they should do with their body as that is their choice.  I do appreciate the supportive comments though.

I apologize-- I didn't realize his was going to become an educated debate over which is safer, hence why I included links to childbirth connection.

So you're saying that the one study you looked at is what you based your decision on? You're joking, right? If that is the case then you really are biased towards c-sections. I have read other studies that show the benefits definitely outweigh the risks for vaginal birth, whether you're looking at it alone or in comparison. If you'd like more details about these studies, let me know. I'm not at my computer right now so it's difficult for me to dig them up.

Thats great you support others with their birth choices although I have a feeling you are sugar coating it a bit to make yourself look better. Someone who "knows" elective csections are safer for many of the babies that are born probably isn't that light and fluffy. And if she is it's probably a cover up.

[erinmattsmom88]

Wild Kingdom, it would be selfish of someone to push to have something when there are potentially life threatening consequences of that behavior to yourself and/or someone else when there is supposedly another, safer option. I stated before that childbirth is risky no matter what. If you have an "ideal" candidate for a VBAC, then by all means, go for it. But, anything less than ideal is too risky and should not happen. I think there are a lot of women out there that push the envelope with wanting a VBAC when they just shouldn't do it. Those women are selfish in thinking they can do something they shouldn't when the mindset is more about them and what they want versus negative consequences to them and their child. But like I said, if there is such a thing as an ideal candidate for a VBAC then I think it should be attempted. I was not an ideal candidate so I had no other choice but to have another c-section. Like I said in an earlier post and let's pretend I'm the hypothetical, then yes I would have been selfish to attempt a VBAC with my risk factors.

[HappyHappyMommy]

Thread closed to review reports and posts.

[Cynthia Mosher]

While I appreciate the topic of this thread does open it to discussion of cesarean versus natural birth this is the Birth Stories forum where members share their stories and receive congratulations and well wishes. It is not a place to question the mother's birth choices or debate in favor of or advocate for elective cesarean section birth.  Please offer your congratulations and well wishes to the OP and keep your posting along those lines.  

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by AwaitingJuno 

I'm sorry if I posted in the wrong category - the category said 'birth stories' - and I wanted to share mine.  

You're in the right forum, mama. Congrats on your new little baby and a healing birth! 

[Linnaea]

Mods--is it possible to move this thread to a better location?  I know it started out as simply a birth story, but it has morphed into something different that several of us have been discussing.  I would really appreciate it, but I understand if it's not possible, thank you.