Advice on letting older children decide on vaxes - Page 2

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by chickabiddy 

If she's old enough to make the decision, she's old enough to do the work that comes with the decision -- finding a doctor to approve a medical exemption with no history of severe vax reactions or explaining to me why she holds a sincere religious exemption (because I will not sign off on a *religious* exemption that comes down to "don't want a shot").

Yeah, well you have pretty much trashed her decision and thrown road blocks up to her ever acting on it. You might as well march her down to the doctors and have her jabbed. 

ETA: to be fair, I would do absolutely nothing to assist my 16 yo get a vaccination. They would have to make the appointment with the clinic/doctors, and get themselves there and pay for it. But then again, I wouldn't be doing anything to her body against her wishes.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by Mirzam 

Yeah, well you have pretty much trashed her decision and thrown road blocks up to her ever acting on it. You might as well march her down to the doctors and have her jabbed. 

ETA: to be fair, I would do absolutely nothing to assist my 16 yo get a vaccination. They would have to make the appointment with the clinic/doctors, and get themselves there and pay for it. But then again, I wouldn't be doing anything to her body against her wishes.

Nor would your actions or inactions prevent her from going to school, assuming you ensured she had the necessary exemptions.

To me all of this hinges on whether or not an older teen can get an exemption themselves.  If they can - great!  Hands off.  If they cannot, then refusing to help with exemptions equals them having to choose between going to school or vaccinating. It is not much of a choice.   

[chickabiddy]

How is my refusing to help with exemptions forcing a choice?  She can go to the doctor herself and get a medical exemption (at least in theory -- she has no risk factors that would justify a medical exemption):  I will provide her with her medical insurance card and a set of car keys.  If she presents a well-reasoned argument I will sign a religious exemption.  If she's under 18 she is still my responsibility, and I will not commit fraud by signing a religious exemption that is not truly based in theology.

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

 

Nor would your actions or inactions prevent her from going to school, assuming you ensured she had the necessary exemptions.

To me all of this hinges on whether or not an older teen can get an exemption themselves.  If they can - great!  Hands off.  If they cannot, then refusing to help with exemptions equals them having to choose between going to school or vaccinating. It is not much of a choice.   

Exactly. By refusing to offer exemption help, you are essentially givng them no choice but to accquiess to your choice [of vaccination].

[chickabiddy]

Mirzam, I'm trying not to make this personal, but you write that you would not help your daughter get a vaccination and you would make her do the work to get one.  I would not help my daughter to get an exemption and would make her do the work to get one.  Obviously, we don't agree with the other's choices, but qualitatively, one is not more coercive than the other.

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by chickabiddy 

How is my refusing to help with exemptions forcing a choice?  She can go to the doctor herself and get a medical exemption (at least in theory -- she has no risk factors that would justify a medical exemption):  I will provide her with her medical insurance card and a set of car keys. 

How is it not?  I don't think doctors sign medical exemptions unless there is a medical reason.  So medical exemptions are out.

If she presents a well-reasoned argument I will sign a religious exemption.

Glad to hear it.  I get a little squiggy on the idea of someone judging whether or not a 17 has a valid religious reasons to avoid vaccines.  I am not religious - but I do have some spiritual reasons for avoiding vaccines.  Who is anyone to judge that?

Edited by kathymuggle - 11/8/12 at 10:17am

[Mirzam]

Originally Posted by chickabiddy 

Mirzam, I'm trying not to make this personal, but you write that you would not help your daughter get a vaccination and you would make her do the work to get one.  I would not help my daughter to get an exemption and would make her do the work to get one.  Obviously, we don't agree with the other's choices, but qualitatively, one is not more coercive than the other.

The difference is by doing nothing I am not pushing a prophalactic medical treatment on someone who doesn't want it. By denying exemption help, you are giving a child an impossible choice, vax or no school. If a minor wants a vaccine, they are welcome to get it themselves and as my child already has a legal vaccine exemption, it has no bearing on whether they will be able to attend school or not. 

[chickabiddy]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 
 I get a little squiggy on the idea of someone judging whether or not a 17 has a valid religious reasons to avoid vaccines.

I think it is significant that I wrote "well-reasoned argument".  Our faith is not anti-vaccine (nor is it anti-abortion, which is one typical religious argument).  If she wants me to sign a religious exemption, I would expect her to be able to present thorough and thoughtful reasons why she has concluded that she cannot vaccinate in good faith.  I don't have to agree with those reasons, but she will need to show that they go way deeper than "don't want to".  When she's 18 she can write whatever she wants.  I will not sign off on a religious exemption that is not solidly based in religious beliefs, because that would be fraud.  I love my daughter (hopefully that goes without saying), but I will not commit fraud to indulge her whims.

(I know the word "whim" won't go over well.  I realize that most non-vaxxers do not make that decision on a whim.  And if my daughter's decision is also deeper than that, she should be able to defend it to me.)

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by chickabiddy 

(I know the word "whim" won't go over well.  I realize that most non-vaxxers do not make that decision on a whim.  And if my daughter's decision is also deeper than that, she should be able to defend it to me.)

I don't take offence at the whim word.  I don't think very many on MDC makes decisions about vaccines on whims.  

Your daughter is 10.  My kids are 9-16….yet, both we here are.  It can take a long time to sort out vaccine issues.  I just do not think kids should have to forgo school (or vaccinate themselves when they are undecided) because of exemption issues, or ability to express her discomfort over vaccines.   Ideally, people should vaccinate because they feel it is the best health choice.

I doubt you will ever be in this situation - I hope you are not.  No one should have to decide between lying (or lying in their eyes) on an exemption form and their kids going to school.

Edited by kathymuggle - 11/8/12 at 11:20am

[SweetSilver]

I'm reading these arguments with interest.  I think they have implications for other medical choices we can allow our older children, or not.

In our lives, exemptions are not currently at issue, both because we homeschool, and even if not, WA has philosophical exemptions.  I don't think that, even at 12 when the Gardasil vaccine would be recommended, that I would insist on the vaccine if there were objections from my girls.  I would hope that this decision would be based off age-appropriate information instead of needlephobia.  

Somehow, I feel like even at that age, there can be some good decision-making going on.  I think, though, that this shows my vaccine biases, at least as far as urgency is concerned.  I am also not anti-vax, though, and I would respect my girls' decision to want to vaccinate, and I hope this would not be based, again, on fear (irrational, beyond "concern" or "nervousness"--OK, semantics there!  Hope you appreciate the difference I'm trying to articulate.)