What's the big deal with charters?

[kentuckymom]

So, this is a purely hypothetical question. I currently live in Kentucky, where there are no charter schools and there probably never will be. There has been a bill before the state house at least a dozen times over the years and it has always been struck down.

However, DH and I have talked off and on for years about moving back to either Michigan (where I grew up) or Wisconsin (where he grew up). Given the (at least) annual layoffs going on at the company DH works for, odds are we're going to move sooner or later. I think the question is just whether or not we'll get to choose the timing.

All the areas we'd consider living in are home to at least a handful of charters, so I'm curious about them. I think I understand how charters work, but I'm curious to know why people choose them (or don't choose them) over traditional public schools.

If your child is at a charter, why did you choose it? 

Is there any one thing that you think sets charters apart, or are they so varied that it just depends on the school?

How can you tell if a charter is a good school, particularly if it's fairly new?

Particularly if you live in a well regarded district but send your child to a charter school, why did you decide that was the better choice?

Do you feel kids miss out on anything at a charter that they would get at a traditional public school?

Feel free to share any other thoughts regarding charters.

Remember, this is a purely hypothetical question. If we end up staying in Kentucky, I will likely never have the opportunity to consider a charter school. If we move, I might. I'm just curious about them.

[Linda on the move]

My kids aren't in a charter but I want to play! We are looking at change the kids school and we live in a city with lots of charters, so I've been checking them out.

Originally Posted by kentuckymom 

Is there any one thing that you think sets charters apart, or are they so varied that it just depends on the school?

They are really varied. I was impressed with a couple of the one's I visited but they weren't right for my children for very different reasons. Every charter is different -- and while traditional public schools are all a little different, the charters are way, way different from each other.

For example, I visited a charter high school that is downtown and has structured themselves to work for kids who fall through the cracks in large schools. They see as their mission to make sure that kids who might not other wise graduate, do get highschool diplomas and highschool level of education (not necessarily the same thing) and then get channeled into community college or trade school. I came away feeling like it was an awesome schools doing god's work.

I visited another charter in the burbs that is structured to work for gifted and highly motivated students and strives to place them at selected admissions colleges. Very, very different schools. (both good schools in their own ways, though)

How can you tell if a charter is a good school, particularly if it's fairly new?

I think that it's tough to tell if ANY school is a good school. I like to visit at different times, talk to different people within the school, learn about the governing body, find out about turn over rate for teachers and students, etc. I do consider test scores, but I think you have to consider the population that a school is working with. I feel like I can tell more by walking around during the school day and seeing how things are going than anything else. Do the students seemed engaged? Are interesting things happening?

Particularly if you live in a well regarded district but send your child to a charter school, why did you decide that was the better choice?

I personally think the key is to pick out the right school for the CHILD. There is no "best" school. It would simpler if there were, but what is the best school for one kid is a nightmare for another. It's all about fit.

Do you feel kids miss out on anything at a charter that they would get at a traditional public school?

I think that no matter what choice is made, kids miss out on some of the positives of the other options. We are going through a school selection process right now, and most likely headed from a private school to our local public school, so I could easily make a list of what my DD would miss if we selected on of the charters instead. But I can also list what she will mess by selecting the public -- such as knowing and being known by every single person in her school. The charters in a our city are a fraction of the size, and in some ways, that's a real asset.

[whatsnextmom]

There was a large thread on this subject recently but it got rather heated and off-topic. Hopefully, you'll get your answers without that happening again lol. I'd say most the kids we know are in a charter of some sort if not in private or an alternative public school (like immersion, magnet, ect.) Our county has over a hundred charters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kentuckymom 

If your child is at a charter, why did you choose it? No, my kids aren't in one. We fell in love with a few but our local district is very strong with lots of alternative educational choices and the willingness to accommodate my kids as individuals. In the end, I didn't love the charters MORE than I loved the local options K-8. Our district does not have a high school though (and the local school is horrid) so we do put our son in the lottery for High Tech every year. We know it's next to impossible that he'll actually get in. Still, it's a fantastic school that would be very well suited to his personal needs. Our back-up is another charter school with a performing arts focus that also seems a good fit and already houses several of his friends.

Is there any one thing that you think sets charters apart, or are they so varied that it just depends on the school? In our area, they are so varied that you can't really discuss them in a general manner.

How can you tell if a charter is a good school, particularly if it's fairly new? Talking to families has always been my best gauge. Yes, touring the school is good. Talking to the staff. Comparing and contrasting the school to what else is available. All that is good but in the end, hearing experiences of those who are there and have kids with similar needs is where I feel I learn the most. 

Particularly if you live in a well regarded district but send your child to a charter school, why did you decide that was the better choice? Not for myself but with our friends, they send their kids to charters because that particular charter is an excellent fit for their particular child. We know kids who thrive in projects based schools and others who don't. We know some who need to be on smaller campuses or do best in a school where their kids can "loop" (have the same teacher for 2 years in a row.) We know kids who do better in a Montessori style school but whose parents can't afford a private montessori... in our area, we have Montessori style charters. We know several who use the homeschooling charters for the free curriculum and the organized "school" activities like dances and clubs. We know a couple who send their kids to charters because of bully issues at their local but "excellent" schools.... same time, we know people who have pulled their kids out of charters because of bully issues (all about the mix of kids sometimes.) 

Do you feel kids miss out on anything at a charter that they would get at a traditional public school? Really depends on the school and the child. Some charters have everything a regular public school has (school sports teams, choirs, science clubs, cheerleading, ect.) Some have very little. Also, what a kid "misses" really depends on the kid. For example, mine could care less about school sports teams but would be really upset without a music program.

Feel free to share any other thoughts regarding charters. I'm all for options.... the more the merrier. Not all charters are created equal but that's not to say that the unequal ones aren't good for some kids. There were some charters I crossed off the list immediately but I didn't find unhappy children and families there.... just wasn't right for us.

[serenbat]

http://www.mothering.com/community/t/1343663/how-do-you-feel-about-charter-schools

my feeling are in this thread 

[VocalMinority]

We have numerous charter schools here.  In theory, they're great!  They're a way to test out endless varieties of progressive educational ideas, without oppression from excessive government oversight or teachers' unions.  Parents don't have to pay for the privilege of letting their kids be guinea pigs, nor are they limited by which neighborhood they can afford to live in.  If a parent thinks a particular charter school's philosophy would work better for their child than their neighborhood public school, they can send their kid to the charter, for free!

The bulk of the charter schools in our city target inner-city and near-inner-city neighborhoods, where the public schools are notoriously poor.  Problem?  Even after having years to work out the kinks, I don't think ANY of the charter schools have succeeded in out-performing the city-run public schools.

Meanwhile, this is our first year with controversial "school vouchers".  In essence, our property taxes fund public schools (which creates the obvious problem that schools in wealthier neighborhoods have more money).  Now, low-income parents who have tried their local public school for at least one year may take a big chunk of their child's share of public school funding and apply it toward tuition at a private school, even religious schools.  This has been unpopular for many reasons (taking funding away from public schools - in many cases, the ones that need it most - and letting public funds go to religious institutions).  HOWEVER, this appears to be working well, for the kids using the vouchers.

I think the big differences are:

- The private schools still get to choose who may attend their school.  So there aren't problem kids from public schools being shuffled around, to hide the fact that maybe their public school wasn't the problem in the first place (as sometimes happens, in the charter schools).  It's low-income kids with the behavioral and academic abilities to thrive at better schools, being given the chance to attend them.

- In most cases, the vouchers don't cover all of tuition, so the parents are still sacrificing to send their kids to the private schools.  So the parents who are using the vouchers are the ones who really care about their kids' education and, in most cases, want to be involved at school.  Sometimes, with the charters, you have kids whose parents weren't paying attention to or supporting their education in the first place, putting them in a different school - again, as though the school was the only problem.  It isn't, always.

- Vouchers are sending kids to schools whose educational systems have already been established as successful and superior to many of the public schools.  They're not an experiment.

[Linda on the move]

another thought -- I think there is a difference between what may be best for a specific child and what is best for our whole big system.

As a parent, if the best option for my child were a charter, I would put my child there.

As a citizen, I do question how charters and vouchers weaken systems rather than strengthen them.

In many places where charters have taken off, private schools are hurting. A big chunk of of the kids who end up charters would have ended up at privates. National wide, private school enrollment is way down. The school hardest hit are urban private school with low tuition (often religious based schools). Some have closed, and many that remain open are hurting. In the end, this may make real alternatives LESS available to everyone -- because charters are public schools and must teach to the state mandated curriculum and take the state test.

The private progressive school that my kids go to is falling apart at the seams, and one of the things that has impacted it is the rise of charters, and subsequent enrollment drops, and then less money, and then declining programs, which spirals into further drop in enrollment. So a truly emergent curriculum based on projects is becoming less and less accessible in my city, and many go away altogether, even though we have more "school choice."  It's really all the same choice but in different size schools that are decorated differently.

Also, although charters are required by law to take which ever students show up (or select using a random lottery if they get too many applicants), in actual practice, in my city several have a reputation for running students out who do not make the cut. They make the child and parents miserable until the kid is withdrawn.

[pek64]

Isn't a charter a private school, and therefore able to select who is allowed?

[whatsnextmom]

Originally Posted by VocalMinority 

The bulk of the charter schools in our city target inner-city and near-inner-city neighborhoods, where the public schools are notoriously poor.  Problem?  Even after having years to work out the kinks, I don't think ANY of the charter schools have succeeded in out-performing the city-run public schools.

And this is very area dependent. In our county, charters are everywhere... nice suburbs, inner cities, beach communities, mountain towns, wealthy and poor areas (like I said, over 100 charter schools.) Several are recognized for being some of the best schools in the nation. We came across a few with low scores and poor offerings but then, there are many city district schools that are worse.

It's important to keep in mind that charters and how they work in a community is going to vary from area to area. It's not easy to make generalizations. Plus, so much depends on what the public system looks like where you are. Our city district is like the 6th largest in the nation and it's been riddled with corruption for decades. Some of the educational decisions have been SO destructive that years after, they are still trying to recover. I'm lucky enough to live where there is a small, fantastic, financially stable county district but we spend 2 years dealing with a city school and it's just night and day.

Edited by whatsnextmom - 11/10/12 at 8:39am

[whatsnextmom]

Originally Posted by pek64 

Isn't a charter a private school, and therefore able to select who is allowed?

Not in our area. Charters are public schools and admission is lottery based and open to anyone in the county no matter how close or far they live from the schools.

[alaskanmomma]

We'll be sending my daughter to a charter school next year for Kindergarten. For us, I want her to have a Montessori education, but we can't afford the private school tuition. At the charter school she'll be going to, they have a Montessori focus but will also work on materials to pass the standardized testing required out of public schools, win-win for us. We also are zoned for a not-so-steller public school, and with overcrowding in almost all the schools here, it's nearly impossible to be granted a zoning waiver. Just works out hand in hand!

[serenbat]

Quote:

Isn't a charter a private school, and therefore able to select who is allowed?

depends on the state (and even sometimes within the state the rules can vary) - and in mine they can throw out who they don't want (who would bring down their scores, those who have special needs, etc) - no federal mandate as to the same rules as with public education http://drnpa.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/students-with-disabilities-attending-public-charter-schools-rev-3-10-.pdf my state makes exemptions and this can and does cause problem for some

Edited by serenbat - 11/10/12 at 10:22am

[moominmamma]

As an outside observer (in Canada, where we have some charter-like arrangements, but the education system is rather different overall), I can't help but wonder if the problem with charter schools is when they're used to address shortcomings in the public school system. In that case they preferentially siphon off the students of more pro-active, resourceful parents. And I can see why that would be something politicians might like: it gets the people who are vocally complaining about the public schools off your backs by distracting them with an alternative, while you don't really have to spend money to fix the basic problems in the schools. The regular public schools have fewer such parents able to fight for the necessary changes, and those schools do not improve and over time may get worse. On the other hand if you have a robust, responsive, well-funded public school system that is serving the general student body well, then charters provide an alternative for particular students with particular needs, abilities and interests. 

Miranda

[briansmama]

In CA there are many different charter schools (all publicly funded): project based, Waldorf based, Classically based, science and tech based, language immersion based, some brick and mortar schools, and others that serve homeschoolers, and even a few more that do both (offer part-time on location enrollment and classes and electives).

I love learning about the different charters available to families across the country- they offer alternatives to standardized education for many families.

As far as how to tell if a charter is a good one- I agree with the pp who said you really can't tell if ANY school is a good one unless you talk to the families who are enrolled in that school and hear their reviews. Of course, many rely on test scores to determine the success of a school, but I've never been one to do that, as the research indicates to me pretty clearly that standardized test scores do not reflect real learning and quality Ed.

I think it's wonderful that more holistic approaches to education are becoming available and well-known.

ETA: We were part of a charter school that served homeschoolers. The school allocated fund for each child enrolled that could be spent on classes, materials, books, etc of our choosing as long as it was educational. We loved it! Charters in CA are granted by the school districts and in return, that district receives a portion of the funding. The charter operates on less funding per child than a traditional standardized school in the same district. There are many charters in CA that serve homeschoolers and some use their funds to operate lending libraries and learning centers that offer group classes, while others don't offer these things and pass more of the allocated per student funds directly into the child so they can choose their own classes, lessons, activities that they are specifically interested in. It is amazing what parents can do for their children with these funds: music and art instruction, science field classes, math activities and tutors, language lessons and group classes, etc. The dollars can stretch further when the parents are able to negotiate lower rates for their children directly from the vendors they choose (discounts for multiple children involved, etc) and many can offer their children a very high quality education for a fraction of the amount spent on a child in a traditional school.

[serenbat]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/13/education/online-schools-score-better-on-wall-street-than-in-classrooms.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

this talks directly about my state and as a tax payer this and the fact that many mismanaged brick and mortar charters have be forced to close, the cost vs the return do bother me--it's great if it works in your state but that is not all over- for profit does not always mean better even if you don't look at test scores

IRL I have yet to meet one parent that stayed in a charter in my state

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by briansmama 

In CA there are many different charter schools (all publicly funded): project based, Waldorf based, Classically based, science and tech based, language immersion based, some brick and mortar schools, and others that serve homeschoolers, and even a few more that do both (offer part-time on location enrollment and classes and electives).
 

In my state, all kids in charters must take the state mandated tests, and these are quite specific. It's away beyond what reading and math levels kids have achieved, to extremely specific subject test for every subject. All schools required to take the test MUST teach to the test or they will bomb it. They can call themselves whatever they want, and they can do it as a distance program (if you are in a charter, you are not legally a home schooler but a public school student) but it's all boils down to the same content.

Philosophically, I have a problem with public monies being funneled into "for profit" charter schools. I think all charters should be not for profits and should be regulated as such.

But, honestly, if my best option for kid was a for profit charter, I would take it.

[KSLaura]

Originally Posted by kentuckymom 

If your child is at a charter, why did you choose it? 

My child attends a charter.  We toured local schools, a couple of magnents, and several charter schools.  The one she attends is the best in the city as far as academics.  We also know a couple of people who have older kids at this school and love it.  One of the things that stood out to me was the fact that almost every teacher at this school sends has their kids in the school.  A lot of teachers in this city fight for jobs at this school specifically so they can send their kids there (staff kids have priority enrollment). 

Is there any one thing that you think sets charters apart, or are they so varied that it just depends on the school?

I really think it depends on the school.  There are several charter schools in my town that are terrible. 

How can you tell if a charter is a good school, particularly if it's fairly new?

Talk to the parents.  Also, like I mentioned above, if a majority of the staff choose this school for their own kids, its probably pretty good. 

Particularly if you live in a well regarded district but send your child to a charter school, why did you decide that was the better choice?

DD's charter is in an excellent school district.  We live in a mediocre district and I wanted better opportunities for my children.  We do have the ability to put them in a regular public school in a well regarded district, but felt that our kids might not fit in with people who, quite frankly, have quite a bit more money than we do.  The charter school is very middle class and also requires uniforms, so I don't expect them to have problems fitting in. 

Do you feel kids miss out on anything at a charter that they would get at a traditional public school?

The only thing my kids miss out on is walking to school with the neighbor kids.  I would never let them walk anyway though, so not much of an issue.  The charter school has all the same sports and activities as the regular public schools.  They also have a very good music program that isn't available in our local school. 

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Well, a lot of passion on the subject, I guess. We have sent our DC to two charters - one in CA and one in Baltimore, MD. I'll play too! 

If your child is at a charter, why did you choose it? 

In CA we chose a charter over a "good school" in a "good district" because I really didn't gel with the teacher my child got for Kindergarten. I think I was also struggling with sending my first child away to school at that point as well so the fact that the school wasn't "perfect" was really stressful for me. 

Is there any one thing that you think sets charters apart, or are they so varied that it just depends on the school?

 

I think that what sets some apart is the freedom for the administration and teachers to set their own curriculum, budget and etc. I'm sure that can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the school. In my DC's two schools it was very, very much a good thing.  DC also was fortunate to get a spot in charters who chose a very small school as part of their model. A small school was a really good fit for her and our family. 

How can you tell if a charter is a good school, particularly if it's fairly new?

I think you would be left with talking to the teachers and administration and you'd have to decide if you trust them to run a school that's a good fit for your child. We're looking at school options again this year for middle and I am worried about the fact that it's a lot easier to say you're going do this or that than it is to actually implement it in a public school. 

Do you feel kids miss out on anything at a charter that they would get at a traditional public school?

Yes. Our biggest regret about the charter my DC goes to is that it doesn't give a strong neighborhood identity to her life. There is not obvious park, pool, sports, or community space that she can visit where all her friends will attend. So, life is a bit of a schlep to friends and activities. 

Feel free to share any other thoughts regarding charters.

There are things that I wonder about and they have been touched on already - how do charters (especially small ones) serve kids with special needs? Our school does quite well from my perspective but I'm sure there are unsatisfied folks out there. How does a school deal with the growing price of their teachers when their per diem per pupil goes down during budget cuts. What about teachers getting advanced degrees? Does their attachment to a charter who can't afford them if they get specialized hold them back? Neighborhood issues. Going on to other schools -- the kids from my DC's elementary will be scattered throughout the city. 

 

Things I love are being able to have a free option for school choice that is offered to all the residents of our city. I think school choice helps keep some folks in the public school system who would otherwise move or use private. There are some upsides to the fact that kids come from all over the city - it's nice to know folks from all over. I love that our school can pick the things that are important to them and focus on that. Daily PE, a strong environmental education, a small school setting, gardens and etc. 

[kentuckymom]

Thanks for all your replies! From the outside, I can understand why charters might hurt the system overall, especially when what they're doing is pulling the kids with parents who care out of failing districts. I can also see how they could enrich the system by providing publicly funded options for kids who don't fit into the public school system. In my district, there are some magnet schools that help fulfill this role. There's a wonderful creative a performing arts magnet that begins in fourth grade. My son is a dancer and super creative in general and I mostly really hope he can get into that school if we're still here. The older boys from his ballet school all attend that school, and they say it's great because no one makes fun of boys for doing something that's normally seen as a "girl" activity. That said, I'd be kind of sad to pull him out of the neighborhood school, which is good overall, and which we can walk to.

Some days I wish we could go back to the times when everyone went to whatever one room schoolhouse was closest to their house :). I'll definitely refer back to these comments if there comes a time when a charter looks like a good option.

[carolynng]

Hi Miranda,

What "charter-like arrangements" are you speaking of in Canada? We live in Toronto, Ontario and are looking for alternatives to the public school system.

Carolyn

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by carolynng 

Hi Miranda,

What "charter-like arrangements" are you speaking of in Canada? We live in Toronto, Ontario and are looking for alternatives to the public school system.

Carolyn

We're in BC, where there's a long tradition of independent schools: schools that are privately run, but in exchange for meeting certain Ministry requirements (certified teachers, basic adherence to provincial learning outcome expectations, eg.) receive some funding from the government -- less than public schools receive, but a not-insubstantial amount per capita. Some schools make do with that funding; others charge a supplemental tuition on top, or require substantial parent volunteer time instead. And they are free to create programs and school administrative structures that are quite innovative. We were peripherally involved in a school which was based on a democratic, Sudbury School type model. There's a Waldorf-inspired school in an village adjacent to ours that has been going strong for 40 years. There are dozens of such schools around the province.

Alberta has a US-style charter school program. My eldest dd (who was commuting to Alberta for music lessons for a while) considered one such school for a while. These may be the only two provinces that have these sorts of schools; I'm not sure. 

Miranda