Some perspective on gifted programs (from an adult who was in them) - Page 2

[KimbleJ]

Originally Posted by moominmamma 

I really think that teaching persistence and empathy are a parent's two most important jobs.

miranda

Absolutely.

However, (what I did not clearly emphasize in my original post), while my mom was instrumental in teaching those things, the best opportunities that I had to put them into practice without her guidance were in the classroom. Especially empathy. You can be told that (to quote Atticus Finch), "You never really know a man until you stand in his shoes and walk around in them," but it's a very different thing to interact with the cross-section of people in a given classroom. One of my schools was zoned so that the student body came from several different areas of very different socioeconomic status. I learned a lot in my 3rd-grade class..some of it scholastic, most of it about people. So, even though this was one of those years where I was in limbo re:the program, I don't think of it as time wasted.

[KimbleJ]

Originally Posted by Denise Wetzel 

I want to underscore the point that giftedness is far less important in the long run than a strong work ethic, passion, and motivation. The older I get the more that I realize that success is predicated much more on doing than knowing.
 

I definitely second that!

[pek64]

I'm curious about those who had depression, dropped out and are struggling in their 20's. But perhaps that's for another thread. I just have questions, such as "how do you know they are gifted if they fell through the cracks?", and "in what way are the adults struggling?".

[KimbleJ]

Originally Posted by pek64 

There is a really terrific quote of Calvin Coolidge on the subject of persistence. Unfortunately, my android didn't want to copy it. Here's a link to it, though.

http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/2771.html

Thanks for that. Great quote! (Now I'm distracted looking at all the other inspiring quotes...)

[KimbleJ]

Originally Posted by pek64 

I'm curious about those who had depression, dropped out and are struggling in their 20's. But perhaps that's for another thread. I just have questions, such as "how do you know they are gifted if they fell through the cracks?", and "in what way are the adults struggling?".

Those are very interesting questions...I wonder about these things, too. I wonder if the effects that you're describing have to do with how much one's identity is intertwined with the label...?

I don't know. The label is both helpful and harmful, I suppose.

[joensally]

You know what's really cool?  Some professionals have spent a lot of time studying and thinking about these sorts of things:

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/browse_by_topic_articles.aspx

http://www.sengifted.org/resources/resource-library

http://hoagiesgifted.org/

[joensally]

Originally Posted by pek64 

I'm curious about those who had depression, dropped out and are struggling in their 20's. But perhaps that's for another thread. I just have questions, such as "how do you know they are gifted if they fell through the cracks?", and "in what way are the adults struggling?".

Um...they fell through the cracks after being identified/in spite of being identified?

[Eavesdrop]

Originally Posted by joensally 

You know what's really cool?  Some professionals have spent a lot of time studying and thinking about these sorts of things:

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/browse_by_topic_articles.aspx

http://www.sengifted.org/resources/resource-library

http://hoagiesgifted.org/

There are also critics of gifted programs like Alfie Kohn and Mara Sapon-Shevin. My most painful memories are of school. I was depressed, bored and a social outcast both in and out of gifted programs. I noticed early on tho, who the "gifted" kids were. They were almost all either asian or jewish while the black and hispanic kids were almost all stuck in remedial.

[captain optimism]

Originally Posted by Eavesdrop 

There are also critics of gifted programs like Alfie Kohn and Mara Sapon-Shevin. My most painful memories are of school. I was depressed, bored and a social outcast both in and out of gifted programs. I noticed early on tho, who the "gifted" kids were. They were almost all either asian or jewish while the black and hispanic kids were almost all stuck in remedial.

I went to look for an article about or by Mara Sapon-Shevin (because I'd read Alfie Kohn) and found this feature story from 2001:

http://old.post-gazette.com/regionstate/20010610giftedmainnewreg2.asp

This is so frustrating. In this article, Shevin talks about differentiation as an alternative to ability grouping. That's why we picked the school we did--it was supposed to have effective differentiation. Ha. Not so much. 

Now that you're not in school, what is your approach? I'm assuming unschooling. 

[joensally]

I have largely stopped participating in online forums on the topic of giftedness because it's frustrating, and because I'm less comfortable talking about my kids online.  This thread is frustrating.  We've got a bunch of people talking past each other, and about a variety of topics.

Sure, there are parents who live through their kids, hyper-focus on excellence and achievement, and that's in areas of academics, sports, the arts, whatever.  Sure, there are kids who thrive outside of gifted programs, who thrive inside gifted programs, who just need modest differentiation, who derive no benefit from a label, who get services because of a label, who are harmed by a label  etc etc etc.

It's pretty clear based on lots of neuro research and social/psych research that "success" is underpinned by self-regulation, "grit," perseverance, temperament etc.  I think kids are more likely to achieve their potential (broadly using this term) if they're in environments that encourage the development of things like self-regulation and perseverance, and what that environment looks like will vary by child.  So I just don't know what the point is of these trite remarks about the negligible value of labels, perseverance over smarts, and focus on gifted programs as the only mechanism to meet individual needs.

I think the fact of a gifted label/identification is being conflated with a host of parental egocentric follies.  I think it's more complicated than that.

[joensally]

Originally Posted by Eavesdrop 

There are also critics of gifted programs like Alfie Kohn and Mara Sapon-Shevin. My most painful memories are of school. I was depressed, bored and a social outcast both in and out of gifted programs. I noticed early on tho, who the "gifted" kids were. They were almost all either asian or jewish while the black and hispanic kids were almost all stuck in remedial.

I think there are multiple topics happening in this thread.  I'm not actually advocating for gifted programs as it's not a possibility in my jurisdiction and I'm pretty sure my kids would hate one.  

I concluded a long time ago that gifted is just one part of a person who is gifted, moderated by and co-existing along with temperament, self-regulation etc etc.  Everyone's experience of a setting is going to be different, some people's needs are more complicated, and some are still going to struggle.

Finally, equitable access to gifted programs is clearly a problem from what I've read about jurisdictions that have them.  This problem is not an argument against meeting individual learners' needs via group programming.

[Cyllya]

Originally Posted by pek64 

I think that too often the labels are more for the parents than the children. Do you really think it's challenging to reread books or plays when the rest of the class is finally getting to those things? It's not a popular opinion, I'm sure, but I think, in the long run, things do work out, with or without the labels.

From my experience, the tedium of repetition was a problem that occurred with the non-gifted classes, not the gifted program.

In elementary school, I was in a one-day-per-week pull-out program, which just learned entirely different material, NOT learning the same material that would be taught at a later time in elementary school. In junior high and high school, being in the advanced classes did mean learning things earlier, but while on that track, you would never be back with "the rest of the class" in that subject, and if you dropped out of the advanced classes, they'd just move you ahead a year.

The regular classes were repeating stuff all the time. When I was a kid, I was under the impression that the school administration was just too stupid to remember they taught us that already.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I am posting the guidelines to this forum just so that everyone is up to speed: 

Quote:

The Parenting the Gifted Child forum is a board of support, respectful requests of information, and sharing of ideas and experiences as they relate to parenting a gifted child. To uphold this purpose, the board will not host discussions of debate or criticism. Disagreements about gifted issues should be set aside out of respect for the diversity and varying interpretations and beliefs that we hold as a community.

We will actively discourage an individual from solely posting for the purpose of disagreement, with no interest in practicing the belief or view in discussion, or who posts only to prove a gifted concept or a belief to be wrong, misguided or not based on fact. Arguing or posting to convert someone to a particular definition of giftedness will not be permitted. Controversial subjects related to giftedness can be found elsewhere on the internet, and we invite you to seek out other sites for that purpose.

[KimbleJ]

A lot of my post has stemmed from a recent conversation with my sister-in-law and her worrying about whether or not she's doing ‘enough’ for her kids, considering the constraints of their current financial situation. (I say that in quotation marks because she's a wonderful, giving mother). My niece is going to be tested for the gifted program, whereas my nephew was not. She's worrying because everyone seems to be telling her that their current school district doesn't have a great gifted program, but the actual classes and teachers are really strong. So, if my niece gets in, what do they do--do they move to a different county with a better gifted program but weaker teachers overall? And will either my niece or my nephew suffer long-term effects based on that decision? (Not to mention the anxiety of the test results--if she doesn't quite make the cutoff, how will that affect her self-esteem? etc.)

We talked about it for a long, long time, and, afterward, I thought about some of the conclusions from our talk--and I just thought that there might be some other parents out there, struggling with similar dilemmas, and I wanted to share. I really like this community and have never joined or posted until now. I put myself and my experiences out there because I thought that they may be of help to someone out there. I sincerely never meant to offend anyone, and I do appreciate all the thoughtful responses from everyone.

I still believe that when two or more people come together to share views, there is always something that's gained--even if they don't perfectly align.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by KimbleJ 

 I really like this community and have never joined or posted until now. I put myself and my experiences out there because I thought that they may be of help to someone out there. I sincerely never meant to offend anyone, and I do appreciate all the thoughtful responses from everyone.

Thank you for sharing and for a thoughtful discussion! 

[loveandgarbage]

Originally Posted by KimbleJ 

Those are very interesting questions...I wonder about these things, too. I wonder if the effects that you're describing have to do with how much one's identity is intertwined with the label...?

I don't know. The label is both helpful and harmful, I suppose.

This rings really true for me. Both my sister and I were in gifted programs, were tested from an early age, etc., and have gone on to lead very different lives as adults. The difference? She felt like doing her homework and I just didn't. Sure, I went off to a "good" college despite awful grades (thank you SAT scores!) but I dropped out. It's only been since I've aged a little that I've taken my education seriously and went back to school to finish my bachelor's when I was 28. I was labeled an underachiever from an early age and felt pressure from family to succeed academically because I was smart and I just... didn't care. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the different path I have taken in life, but I know that I had it in me to get into an Ivy League school, go on to a post-graduate degree, be an academic (like I wish to be now) and sometimes I wonder if the pressure of being told I was so damn intelligent all the time sort of turned me off to academia in general. Then again, my sister who did that path wishes she had the life experiences that I have had-- lots of travel, living in different cities, having kids younger because I didn't have a career, etc. I'm not sure that the gifted programs really benefited us in any way. Sure, we got college credit for our AP classes in high school, but that's the only concrete thing that comes to mind. I remember being really annoyed at receiving an extra packet of math homework in 1st grade and refusing to do it. And I remember feeling isolated when I was taken away from friends to join the advanced reading groups throughout elementary school. I think what more formed us as human beings is the family environment we grew up in-- very literate, political discussions at the dinner table, going to art shows with our mom, tagging along to theses presentations with our dad. I'm not trying to say that gifted programs are worthless. I think for a lot of kids they are necessary and will help them get to a place in life that is possibly more desirable for them. But I certainly won't be pushing it with my kids. Both DH and I have tried to create and environment very close to what I grew up in (and he as well) and we refuse to worry if our kids qualify for whatever gifted program our school offers.

[AllisonR]

There are too many variables to be able to comment fairly on this thread. OP, I think that you would have garnered more complimentary and supportive feedback, had you worded your original post from the p.o.v. of "in my experience" and "with my kids today". No parent likes to be preached to, about any parenting topic. Society in general already feels inclined to preach, frequently and loudly, to parents. It's almost a national sport.

In my experience I was in the wrong school environment for 5 years - I was teased, had few friends, in my own daydreaming fantasy land in order to make it through 7 hours a day, five days a week of boredom and stress. This had little to do with gifted or not, it was just the completely wrong environment for me to learn anything in. When I went to high school, I found I finally had access to stimulating classes, and within a semester I was making straight As and had friends. 

No one should say that 7 hours a day, five days a week is not critical to their child's development. School is your child's job, and it is a full-time job. No adult would stand half the inequities in a job that we expect of children in their job, every day. I have serious issues with my child's education, and no, I am not going to relax and not worry about it. Now is the time to worry, and fix whatever problems I can. The responsible, caring thing to do is to worry, and fix problems, now, instead of looking back with huge regrets when she is in high school or university and saying "if I only had..."

[pek64]

Shouldld you make sure your child is in a healthy environment that is conducive to learning? Yes! AND that is true with or without labels. And as some have stated, gifted programs aren't always best for a child. Sometimes, if you take away the label, and look at the individuals, options are noticed that would otherwise be overlooked. Ultimately, as one poster said, a child that doesn't want to do homework can't be made to do well by giving extra homework. Being pulled out of classes can make friendships difficult. And regardless of what choices are made by the parents, the child has the final choice of what to do with his or her life, as an adult. And most folks wonder "what would my life be like if..
", so you probably won't be able to avoid that, either. Of course, every parent must make her and his own decisions regarding their children. I hope everyone here is pleased with the outcomes.

[whatsnextmom]

Originally Posted by pek64 

I'm curious about those who had depression, dropped out and are struggling in their 20's. But perhaps that's for another thread. I just have questions, such as "how do you know they are gifted if they fell through the cracks?", and "in what way are the adults struggling?".

I'm thinking of 3 cases in particular within my family. My little brother tested highly gifted in 2nd grade but was not given accommodation because he wouldn't consistently do the remedial work in front of him first. Then, he became a behavioral issue and the gifted program would not touch him with a 10 foot pole. He stopped doing the classwork yet at home, he had stacks of stories he'd written, invented machine schematics, graphic novels he'd created.... all really amazing work. He eventually calmed down to the point where teachers wouldn't notice him at all. At that point, he sat in the back, staring at the walls, hiding from bullies at lunch and recess. He's in his 30's, no education, good work ethic but no confidence so doing a menial job that pays nothing. His apartment is the sort they put on TV shows because they are so gross. He had managed to get married to a girl 10 years younger but she left the state and him last year leaving him with a mountain of debt. It's just heartbreaking. I have my own issues with my brother and what his childhood did to mine but he was such a bundle of energy as a kid... so creative, so sensitive and thoughtful.

My niece and nephew. My nephew, who thrived in a GATE program until 6th grade, fell apart when it was cut and placed in a regular class. He barely graduated high school. As an adult, he has no confidence, can't hold down a job and is an alcoholic. My niece, tested gifted only to have the program cut before she could enter it. My SIL was just not equipped to advocate for her and because my niece was quiet and non-confrontational, she got nothing. She's the one who dropped out. She's 22, on anti-depressants, unhappy and working part-time at little seasonal jobs here and there.

Gifted programs and labels are the answer for some kids but not all. I'm an advocate for a flexible education that pays attention to what the individual needs. If that means labels and programs, great. If that means acceleration or specialty schools, great. If that means regular class with some differentiation, great. Problem is, individualized education isn't something that just happens.... either you provide it yourself or you hunt down the right programs for your child and tweak them when necessary. Certainly, there are some kids who will be OK no matter what. I was that sort of kid. My DS is that sort of kid. My DD, not at all.

[pek64]

The way I see it, the labels and the programs are not nearly as important as how the person, child or adult, is treated. Self confidence doesn't come from labels. It comes from being spoken to with respect. Constant praise, as I've seen criticized on some threads, is not as important as a lack of criticism! Criticism (why don't you do better; after all, you're gifted) tears at self esteem. I'm not saying that's what happened in the cases we're discussing. I'm just pointing out the possibility. There are many factors to consider when discussing self confidence. Even an adult can benefit from confidence boosting. I don't feel it's too late for anyone. Nor do I feel that labels and school programs are best for everyone who qualifies. Each person is unique. Some may thrive, while others falter. And most important is a feeling of being loved and accepted, regardless of what labels may fit! Saying"of course I love my child" does not guarantee that the child feels it. Some may feel they have to measure up to expectations in order to earn love. Unconditional love works best. And doesn't need a label.