Raising Kids and Pets with GD

[sassyfirechick]

It was suggested I start up a discussion of the parallels between raising kids using GD methods and raising pets (dogs) with positive reinforcement.

I've been training dogs for about 11 years now using positive reinforcement - clicker training.  Basically I don't ask my dogs to do things, I let them 'be dogs' and if I see a behavior I like, I use a marker (plastic clicker) to designate the exact moment that I like and reward with food.  I can easily shape complex behaviors from heeling off leash to blowing bubbles from their nose in a bowl of water, and by reinforcing the good behaviors and primarily ignoring the unwanted, I set them up to repeat the things I like without ever 'telling' them.  In humans it's reffered to as tag teaching.

My LO is 12mos. Until I was pregnant (and it was planned), I really didn't like kids - I blame it on way too many years of babysitting for very spoiled, very rude, very obnoxious kids! But as time goes on I find that I use my knowledge as a dog trainer quite often when dealing with DD, whether subconcious or not.

So for discussion purposes:

Who out there has kids and dogs and do you find that you treat them similarly in regards to discipline?

Discuss!

[Abby Normal]

Personally, I think dogs thrive under the control of a loving human companion. I don't think the same is true for little humans. You can be the most loving you possible, and they are going to find control and behavior manipulation insulting at some point. It's much wiser, imo, to appeal to their intelligence with logic and reasoning. Which is something we don't really have the option to do with our furry friends. 

So I can't say there is much similarity in how I teach my dog and how I mentor my kids. Except that you snuggle them and rub their bellies :) 

I understand where you are coming from though, in terms of intent. You have gentle and nurturing motives, rather than forceful and demanding ones. The execution is different (for me) but the base intention is the same. 

[marsupial-mom]

My dogs know all kinds of tricks. It's fun to teach them new behaviors.

There are absolutely similarities. The main things IMO are:
Consistency and persistence
Praise/reward/ positive reinforcement
Strong emotional bond

That said I do not use similar methods very often. My son is almost 3 now and so we can communicate in English very well. We can talk about how to act before or after a situation rather than only dealing with behaviors instantly (plan together or remember together) . We can imagine/pretend/visualize which is something you can't do with animals. We can verbalize emotions and

You can't have a conversation in the car with your dog "remember at the dog park how that other dog took your ball? That made you angry and you barked and growled at him. But he wouldn't give it back. Do you think you could have gotten your ball back if you asked him nicely for it? Or maybe you could ask his person to get the ball? Want to try that next time?" but you can do that with children.

[Kaydove]

We have an part wolf (probably a 1/4) and husky/german shephard mix who has a dominant streak, super loving and kind hearted, but he needs an alpha. That said I don't think positive reinforcement would work for him, however I can see it helping my Basset Hound to an extent - he has a nervous barking problem and since he has the second best nose of all dogs, he tends to be a hound about food so he needs to hear no. I don't think ignoring unwanted behaviours and only rewarding the good works in all dogs. We do have large working breed dogs. We had a German shephard/lab mix before the husky/wolf mix and she was the same way, needed an alpha. I think dogs closer to the wolf in breed (German shepard, husky, etc vs Basset hounds, chihuahua, cocker spaniels, etc) need more alpha and pack mentality.

We see our pets as furbabies so don't think we're heavy handed with them, I never strike animals (nor people) but the first and only time the husky took food out of my baby's hand, I grabbed him, wrenched his jaw open, and pulled the food out, then made sure he was watching me throw the food away. He then had to spend time outside. That was kinda crazy because I went all Mama Bear and instinctually did that! But that was most alpha thing I could have done. He's never done anything close to that again, although he's so tall that the baby feeds him when she's in her highchair - she will grab a handful of food then put her hand over the edge and let him lick it off her hand. Oh well.

That all being said, no I would never be alpha with my daughter. I see our relationship as a partnership, only I call the shots now and over time we'll transition to equals, but that won't be until she's an adult. Slowly as she grows, she'll be able to make more decisions for herself and I'll help her with that. I'll help grow in her the confidence to make good decisions with love and logic not authority.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2
Edited by Kaydove - 11/16/12 at 11:17pm

[sassyfirechick]

So I'm pretty surprised at the responses thus far, mainly the belief that dogs must be maintained using a position of dominance (pack theory).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abby Normal 

Personally, I think dogs thrive under the control of a loving human companion. I don't think the same is true for little humans. You can be the most loving you possible, and they are going to find control and behavior manipulation insulting at some point. It's much wiser, imo, to appeal to their intelligence with logic and reasoning. Which is something we don't really have the option to do with our furry friends. 

I try to avoid words like control, dominance, alpha, and even command - it gives off a very distinct picture of an almost military style execution of training.  For me, positive reinforcement does involve appealing to the intelligence of the dog in question.  For example, I have one female Australian Shepherd who is incredibly smart, insightful and a quick thinker on her feet.  Repetition and drilling are insulting to her.  When training for competitive obedience, I have to be very careful how I ask her to do things because if she senses my intentions are to change her behavior (ask her to sit straighter, move faster, walk closer in a heel, etc) she will actually do the opposite!  It's fun for me as a trainer bc I enjoy the challenge - keeps me from getting complacent.  I try to phrase everything in a way that makes the dogs believe they are in control of the rewards when in reality I'm carefully chosing the path and shaping it slowly.  In terms of my daughter, I very much see the similarity when I ask her not to do something, ie "leave it" for my computer or power cords.  She will look at me, study my reaction, and go right back in to grab but a littler slower or from a different angle.  So I tend to walk her past those objects in a wide arc to avoid them or I will point out something exciting just past them and suggest she might like that to play with.  By suggesting it ('ohhh look at the books, we like to read books, can you take mommy to see them?) in this way, I'm not telling her directly to go play with the book and not the laptop, but indirectly I'm chosing the direction I'd like her to go in.

In terms of discipline, I use removal and redirection on both species.  Removal for my dogs might mean walking in an opposite direction of a distraction (such as when leash walking, if they pull, we do a 180 to teach that pulling will not get them what they want), leaving the room if they jump on a guest, or crate time for a super mouthy puppy that appears overtired and in need of a nap.  For DD, removal is similar - we walk away from the dog bowl (or I carry her), she goes to her pack n play if she continues to leave her toys for off limit things, or we go to a quiet room for nap time if she's looking overtired (which I do try to avoid, but hey, it happens!). 

Quote:

Originally Posted by marsupial-mom 

My dogs know all kinds of tricks. It's fun to teach them new behaviors.
There are absolutely similarities. The main things IMO are:
Consistency and persistence
Praise/reward/ positive reinforcement
Strong emotional bond
That said I do not use similar methods very often. My son is almost 3 now and so we can communicate in English very well. We can talk about how to act before or after a situation rather than only dealing with behaviors instantly (plan together or remember together) . We can imagine/pretend/visualize which is something you can't do with animals. We can verbalize emotions and
You can't have a conversation in the car with your dog "remember at the dog park how that other dog took your ball? That made you angry and you barked and growled at him. But he wouldn't give it back. Do you think you could have gotten your ball back if you asked him nicely for it? Or maybe you could ask his person to get the ball? Want to try that next time?" but you can do that with children.

Oh marsupial-mom, if only you could hear the conversations I have with my dogs ;-)  But absolutely - kids speak english, dogs don't.  Long conversations and explanations will get you nowhere with a dog - they live in the moment.

Originally Posted by Kaydove 

We have an part wolf (probably a 1/4) and husky/german shephard mix who has a dominant streak, super loving and kind hearted, but he needs an alpha. That said I don't think positive reinforcement would work for him, however I can see it helping my Basset Hound to an extent - he has a nervous barking problem and since he has the second best nose of all dogs, he tends to be a hound about food so he needs to hear no. I don't think ignoring unwanted behaviours and only rewarding the good works in all dogs. We do have large working breed dogs. We had a German shephard/lab mix before the husky/wolf mix and she was the same way, needed an alpha. I think dogs closer to the wolf in breed (German shepard, husky, etc vs Basset hounds, chihuahua, cocker spaniels, etc) need more alpha and pack mentality.
We see our pets as furbabies so don't think we're heavy handed with them, I never strike animals (nor people) but the first and only time the husky took food out of my baby's hand, I grabbed him, wrenched his jaw open, and pulled the food out, then made sure he was watching me throw the food away. He then had to spend time outside. That was kinda crazy because I went all Mama Bear and instinctually did that! But that was most alpha thing I could have done. He's never done anything close to that again, although he's so tall that the baby feeds him when she's in her highchair - she will grab a handful of food then put her hand over the edge and let him lick it off her hand. Oh well.
That all being said, no I would never be alpha with my daughter. I see our relationship as a partnership, only I call the shots now and over time we'll transition to equals, but that won't be until she's an adult. Slowly as she grows, she'll be able to make more decisions for herself and I'll help her with that. I'll help grow in her the confidence to make good decisions with love and logic not authority.

I find it exteremely interesting when people view dogs breeds differently - ie one will respond to PR but another won't.  Yes, some breeds are more assertive than others, and yes some push buttons more than others, but the beauty of PR is that every dog can be trained this way.  I know this is a big debate in the training world, especially when people like Cesar Millan show up on tv looking like miracle workers with all these crazy intense 'techniques'.  But there is a lot of research regarding the phrases alpha and pack mentality.  The original alpha/domiance studies were performed in the 1940's, mainly on wolves in captivity, and were short-term and not all-inclusive.  They focused on the big obvious displays - like hunting and resource guarding - and paid no attention to the subtle behaviors - so only about 1% of wolf behavior was included in these studies.  (Although in wolves, very little is subtle bc hunting is life or death - you eat or you die.)  Companion dogs are thought to be somewhat frozen in time aka permanant wolf cubs.  Nothing in domestic dogs requires them to fight to the death.  All their battles are psycological and in reality most dogs co-exist without a hitch their entire lives.

I have working dogs, Australian Shepherds.  I've worked with just about every breed from chihuahuas, to beagles, to labs, to great danes.  From a pure behavior standpoint, they all have the same needs and all will respond similarly to PR training.  Some just need a bit more creativity on the part of the human.

I too have pulled things from my dogs' mouths, sometimes you do what you gotta do.  In fact I've had to do it with my DD bc she's a paper eater....ugh.  Anyways, she does feed the dogs from her highchair and bc it's so rewarding I've had to become super extra creative in teaching the dogs to ignore her while in the chair and look to me for rewards instead (I don't want her feeding them potentially dangerous things down the road).  At least they aren't stealing it so I have no complaints there.

I'm not alpha with my LO.  I'm mom. I'm in charge of decisions bc she is not capable of making them yet.  I make the rules bc I know what is best.  I take that same aproach with my dogs.  It is very much a partnership - I respect them, they respect me, I get the behaviors I want from them bc of this mutual respect.  There was a grea quote I found by a biology professor who is an avid dog trainer and researcher (Dr. Ray Coppinger): "I cannot think of many learning situations where I want my learning dogs responding with fear and lack of motion. I never want my animals to be thinking social hierarchy. Once they do, they will be spending their time trying to figure out how to move up in the hierarchy."  The take home message?  If you treat your dogs as though they ARE in a pack, you will essentially teach them that there is a top tier and that they should learn to climb the ladder to get to the top.  If you treat them equally and with respect they will give that respect back to you ten fold.  In my world, this translates to a similar concept with my DD - I want her to be a thinker.  I want her to learn without barriers and without consequences that may squash her desire to explore the world for fear of a punishment.  Now I don't mean to say I won't give her any rules at all.  I'm not going to let her fall down a flight of stairs to learn how to avoid them, I won't let her run to the stovetop and burn herself to learn what hot means.  I will however provide her with a safe environment in which she can explore her world, learn cause and effect, discover natural consequences.  It's the reason I so desperately want for her to attend a Montessori school over a traditional public school.  I want to give her room to grow at her own pace, to nurture her natural abilities and offer help in areas she needs it but in a way that doesn't make her feel like a faiure.  The more successful they feel (kids and dogs) the more confident they become.  Confidence translates into happiness and stability.

I have a 'friend' (she kind of came with my DH - he and her hubby work toogether) who runs her house like a dictatorship.  She beats (yes, beats, not just lightly spanks), belittles, and degrades her 4 children and her dog.  There is so much fear in that house, and tension, it really bothers me to be there.  I've tried to work with her dog when he stays with us on ocassion, but he's been beaten down and told "no" so many times that he lives in fear of new behaviors.  New behaviors are potentially something he will be hit for doing and so he knows 2 things: sit and paw.  That's it at 7 years old.  Her kids?  Well, out of sight of mom, they are wild hellions breaking every rule, testing every boundary, but once they are in her sight, they are afraid to breathe for fear she will tell them to stop doing it so loudly.  That's the thing about being 'alpha'...it's doesn't equal control in the absense of the 'leader'.

...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

http://www.caninemind.co.uk/pack.html - slightly long, not sure of the background of the author but a very good read

http://www.jeandonaldson.com/jeans-blog-mainmenu-51/64-are-dogs-pack-animals - jean donaldson is a leading behavioral trainer with vast knowledge on every aspect of behavior and training

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090521112711.htm - citations from a behavioral journal

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm - uses dominace and leader, which I don't love, but if you read it thoroughly the point of the article is that these things are not physical as we often envision them being, but psychological.

[Kaydove]

Thinking about it, we do use PD with the dogs more than I thought. Specifically in regards to good behaviour around the baby. We do not yell or hit our dogs, I do want to make that clear. 

How do you handle aggressive behaviours, specifically growling at the baby? From your post, it sounded to me like you never tell your dogs no. 

[Abby Normal]

SassyFireChick, if you met me and my dog I'm sure you'd not think we were dominant control types. My dog came to us at age 5 with the scars of having been a puppymill survivor. She never had to be taught or tamed, she had to be cuddled and rehabilitated and learn to trust humans. So our 3 years with her have mostly been about loving her. She has learned exactly 0 tricks from us. She's here and we're here. 

I was using the word control in passing, and without a lot of thought, to simply juxtapose the difference between the the human to human and the human to animal relationship. My children and I have the luxury of language, while my dog and I do not. When my dog wants to eat, she stares at me and runs to her dish. She relies on me to control and manage her little safe haven, while my kids are all old enough to feed themselves and add their requests to the grocery list. Heck, old enough to go to the store and get what they wish. When my dog first came to us she did not know to potty outside, so she was babygated in the kitchen. I was controlling her environment to protect my rugs. With kids, I wouldn't ever consider that an option- even as a teaching technique. 

So you don't have to be alpha dog proponents to believe that you have more control over the experience of your pet than the experience of your kids. Unless I move to the country without leash laws, and allow my dogs free range to wander as far as they please- it would be hard not to have more control over their environment than I have over my (older) children.

fwiw, I won't speak on the subject of alpha dog theories, because I simply don't have enough experience or information to. I'm the worlds worst dog trainer, which is why I adopted an older rescue dog. 

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Thanks, Sassy, for starting this spin-off. I think it's an interesting subject. I'm not a fan of positive reinforcement with children so the association between how that works with dogs doesn't resonate all that well with me. But, I don't have dogs so I suppose I could think about the main discipline styles I use with kids and see if one could apply them to dogs. If I think of some, I'll share.  

I wonder maybe about the motivation issue. With kids we want them to internalize a personal motivation for good behavior. To me that implies understanding the hows and whys and is pretty complex. Is that something you expect from dogs? 

[sassyfirechick]

Originally Posted by Kaydove 

Thinking about it, we do use PD with the dogs more than I thought. Specifically in regards to good behaviour around the baby. We do not yell or hit our dogs, I do want to make that clear. 

How do you handle aggressive behaviours, specifically growling at the baby? From your post, it sounded to me like you never tell your dogs no. 

I don't use the word no with the dogs, it's just an abstract that they can't really grasp.  I do use a verbal behavior interrupt - a sound that gets their attention for a split second to stop what they are currently doing - "AH" - I can't think of a good way to spell it lol, but it's short, sharp, and gets them to look at me!  Between 3 dogs, only one has made any noise at the baby, and I NEVER correct a growl.  A growl is a warning system that needs to be in place to prevent a bite - take away the growl, they go right to the bite.  That said, this dog just isn't as composed and confident as my others, so when the baby crawls on him, he tolerates it less.  His growl is a warning, but for him, it's a "hey, i'm a bit frustrated, leave me alone" and he will get up and walk away from her immediately.  The key is in knowing your dog bc different growls mean different things. My old female, will put up with everything DD can dish out - she goes to schools with me and does dog safety programs so she is rock solid.  Doesn't mean I let her get tortured, but part of my training is to rough handle and pull at my dogs in odd ways to gauge their startle reflex and how much they tolerate, then I use PR to encourage more tolerance and I replace the startle reflex (which might be jumping up or turning quickly) with a more desirable behavior, like "look at me" or lay your head on the ground, followed by immense reward. 

So I do tell my dogs no, just not with the word.  It's more a matter of approval.  If I don't approve of something, my body language says far more than words ever could.  Oh and I do utilize a crate, so when I really disapprove, I very quitetly guide them to the crate, so it's not punishment, it's not a bad place, but they know if they are asked to go into a crate in that manner (vs a verbal 'in your bed' which typically is followed by a reward) they did something wrong.

[sassyfirechick]

Originally Posted by Abby Normal 

SassyFireChick, if you met me and my dog I'm sure you'd not think we were dominant control types. My dog came to us at age 5 with the scars of having been a puppymill survivor. She never had to be taught or tamed, she had to be cuddled and rehabilitated and learn to trust humans. So our 3 years with her have mostly been about loving her. She has learned exactly 0 tricks from us. She's here and we're here. 

I was using the word control in passing, and without a lot of thought, to simply juxtapose the difference between the the human to human and the human to animal relationship. My children and I have the luxury of language, while my dog and I do not. When my dog wants to eat, she stares at me and runs to her dish. She relies on me to control and manage her little safe haven, while my kids are all old enough to feed themselves and add their requests to the grocery list. Heck, old enough to go to the store and get what they wish. When my dog first came to us she did not know to potty outside, so she was babygated in the kitchen. I was controlling her environment to protect my rugs. With kids, I wouldn't ever consider that an option- even as a teaching technique. 

So you don't have to be alpha dog proponents to believe that you have more control over the experience of your pet than the experience of your kids. Unless I move to the country without leash laws, and allow my dogs free range to wander as far as they please- it would be hard not to have more control over their environment than I have over my (older) children.

fwiw, I won't speak on the subject of alpha dog theories, because I simply don't have enough experience or information to. I'm the worlds worst dog trainer, which is why I adopted an older rescue dog. 

I didn't mean to imply you were controling, I'm sorry, it's just a pet peeve of mine bc I see 'control' used far too often to imply dominance!  Management is a term I do use :-)  And yes we do have to manage dogs more so than kids (although many countries in Europe are lightyears ahead of us in terms of dog tolerance and expectations for training). 

As a side note, if you have an interest in expending your dog's repertiore, 101 Dog Tricks is a fantastic read with step-by-step instructions for each trick.  I highly recommend training like that for nervous dogs as each time they learn a new trick it builds emense confience that would otherwise take years to accomplish!  Glad to hear you adopted an older dog, they really do make great companions.

[sassyfirechick]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama 

Thanks, Sassy, for starting this spin-off. I think it's an interesting subject. I'm not a fan of positive reinforcement with children so the association between how that works with dogs doesn't resonate all that well with me. But, I don't have dogs so I suppose I could think about the main discipline styles I use with kids and see if one could apply them to dogs. If I think of some, I'll share.  

I wonder maybe about the motivation issue. With kids we want them to internalize a personal motivation for good behavior. To me that implies understanding the hows and whys and is pretty complex. Is that something you expect from dogs? 

Motivation for dogs is a bite more primal, a bit more selfish - food, space, toys.  Refered to as resources, some will guard them, others give them up more easily, but all dogs have needs so those are the primary things to use when training.  You can remove these things, control when or how they get them, or give them to a dog.  I like to use the reward aspect of it and it wasn't until I became a dog trainer that I really started to think about using PR with kids.  It started off with a few clients that had rowdy kids over which they had no control, and since I was in dog trainng mode I kind of treated the kids like dogs - "timmy, I need you to sit right here while I show something to rover.  When I am done showing him, I will let you help me.  If you get out of that seat before I ask, You will have to leave the room and I won't allow you to be my helper".  If the kids remained seated, the reward was being my "assistant".  If they didn't listen, I would get up, kindly ask them to leave the room, guide them if necessary, and return to training.  Usually one time leaving and they were angels the rest of the training.  My rewards for the kids were mostly praise based, telling them what fantastic trainers they were and how great it was they could help me - huge confidence boost to them. 

Now for my dogs, bc we have a purely positive relationship and it's been that way from the start, they DO work for me just because I ask them to.  I don't need to reward every little thing - the motivation is to please me.  That's what I like about this type of training.  It's a relationship I never had with dogs growing up.  So in some ways, it is similar to a child internalizing and learning to do good things because it feels good to them.

[Mittsy]

I'm following this thread with interest. We have a 2yo rescue dog and I'm researching how to implement a positive reinforcement training type of plan with her.

[Kaydove]

Originally Posted by sassyfirechick 

Originally Posted by Kaydove 

Thinking about it, we do use PD with the dogs more than I thought. Specifically in regards to good behaviour around the baby. We do not yell or hit our dogs, I do want to make that clear. 

How do you handle aggressive behaviours, specifically growling at the baby? From your post, it sounded to me like you never tell your dogs no. 

I don't use the word no with the dogs, it's just an abstract that they can't really grasp.  I do use a verbal behavior interrupt - a sound that gets their attention for a split second to stop what they are currently doing - "AH" - I can't think of a good way to spell it lol, but it's short, sharp, and gets them to look at me!  Between 3 dogs, only one has made any noise at the baby, and I NEVER correct a growl.  A growl is a warning system that needs to be in place to prevent a bite - take away the growl, they go right to the bite.  That said, this dog just isn't as composed and confident as my others, so when the baby crawls on him, he tolerates it less.  His growl is a warning, but for him, it's a "hey, i'm a bit frustrated, leave me alone" and he will get up and walk away from her immediately.  The key is in knowing your dog bc different growls mean different things. My old female, will put up with everything DD can dish out - she goes to schools with me and does dog safety programs so she is rock solid.  Doesn't mean I let her get tortured, but part of my training is to rough handle and pull at my dogs in odd ways to gauge their startle reflex and how much they tolerate, then I use PR to encourage more tolerance and I replace the startle reflex (which might be jumping up or turning quickly) with a more desirable behavior, like "look at me" or lay your head on the ground, followed by immense reward. 

So I do tell my dogs no, just not with the word.  It's more a matter of approval.  If I don't approve of something, my body language says far more than words ever could.  Oh and I do utilize a crate, so when I really disapprove, I very quitetly guide them to the crate, so it's not punishment, it's not a bad place, but they know if they are asked to go into a crate in that manner (vs a verbal 'in your bed' which typically is followed by a reward) they did something wrong.

Okay, that makes sense! I'll talk to my DH about it, I'm sure he would be happy to try something like that because he is reluctant to correct growls. Growls do make me nervous, but the way you described it makes me feel better about them. I have an unusually neurotic Basset Hound, he's had a lot happen to him the past year - the love of his life who he worshiped the ground she peed on, Sadie our beloved German Shepherd mix past away suddenly, our cat who also adored Sadie ran away, we moved from Seattle to San Diego, had a baby at home, my step daughter moved in who wasn't nice to him even though we talked and talked to her about it (she's 22 for heaven's sake!), my DH traveled several times a month, and we gained several neighbors that have dogs - our house in Seattle had a huge yard whereas the house here has a smaller yard with lots of neighbors. So all that made him really neurotic and super barky. He has a love/hate relationship with the baby and is just starting to play with her, which we reinforce with lots of praise and loves. 

I feel like things are looking up for him, the step daughter moved out and I already see an improvement. So when he growls, what do I do? Nothing and redirect DD? The big dog, bless his heart, is desperate for DD to throw his toy, since birth he's given his toy to her especially when she cries. Now she plays with it and he looks at her longingly. We rescued him at 2 years old a year ago and he had kids at his previous family, although it was obvious by his fascination with the dishwasher and vacuum that he spent the majority of the time outside at his old house. 

Thanks for the tips!

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by sassyfirechick 
It started off with a few clients that had rowdy kids over which they had no control, and since I was in dog trainng mode I kind of treated the kids like dogs - "timmy, I need you to sit right here while I show something to rover.  When I am done showing him, I will let you help me.  If you get out of that seat before I ask, You will have to leave the room and I won't allow you to be my helper".  If the kids remained seated, the reward was being my "assistant".  If they didn't listen, I would get up, kindly ask them to leave the room, guide them if necessary, and return to training.  Usually one time leaving and they were angels the rest of the training.  My rewards for the kids were mostly praise based, telling them what fantastic trainers they were and how great it was they could help me - huge confidence boost to them. 

My views with how and why some aspects of GD work may be different from you, which may be why we see the whole praise thing differently. In this scenario I would imagine that depending on a few factors (age, temperament_ and based on my experience with kids, that it was your explanation about why you needed them to sit and you having expressed need of help that motivated their good behavior. Not so much the praise. 

An interesting experiment would be to try both. Do one scenario where you are tell they need to sit (do not explain why) and then reward them or punish them depending on their actions. Do another where you explain why you need them to sit void of any rewards or punishments. My guess is that the second would work much better (especially in the long run). 

Another interesting thing to visualize is why you expect a dog to behave. Are those reasons good enough reasons for humans to display good behavior? I know you mentioned that children and dogs are motivated by "what feels good". I don't think that's such a bad idea but I would say that we expect far more complex thinking from children, maybe especially when they get older. In the end, I do tend to do the right thing because it feels good...but that is a result of a complex moral code developed through a lifetime, yk? 

[sassyfirechick]

Originally Posted by Kaydove 

Okay, that makes sense! I'll talk to my DH about it, I'm sure he would be happy to try something like that because he is reluctant to correct growls. Growls do make me nervous, but the way you described it makes me feel better about them. I have an unusually neurotic Basset Hound, he's had a lot happen to him the past year - the love of his life who he worshiped the ground she peed on, Sadie our beloved German Shepherd mix past away suddenly, our cat who also adored Sadie ran away, we moved from Seattle to San Diego, had a baby at home, my step daughter moved in who wasn't nice to him even though we talked and talked to her about it (she's 22 for heaven's sake!), my DH traveled several times a month, and we gained several neighbors that have dogs - our house in Seattle had a huge yard whereas the house here has a smaller yard with lots of neighbors. So all that made him really neurotic and super barky. He has a love/hate relationship with the baby and is just starting to play with her, which we reinforce with lots of praise and loves. 

I feel like things are looking up for him, the step daughter moved out and I already see an improvement. So when he growls, what do I do? Nothing and redirect DD? The big dog, bless his heart, is desperate for DD to throw his toy, since birth he's given his toy to her especially when she cries. Now she plays with it and he looks at her longingly. We rescued him at 2 years old a year ago and he had kids at his previous family, although it was obvious by his fascination with the dishwasher and vacuum that he spent the majority of the time outside at his old house. 

Thanks for the tips!

If the dog growls at the baby, I would remove the baby to prevent escalation until you can do step 2: determine exactly what causes the growl.  Is it the quick motion? Is it bc your LO made a loud noise? Does the dog not enjoy being touched or just not touched in a certain area?  You have to pinpoint the reason for the dog's discomfort before you can work to fix the issue.  Let's say for example he's fine with the baby in the room making noise, and he's ok for a quick pet, but if she lays on him he gets irritated.  You have two things to work on - 1) pairing the laying down scenario with something he likes and slowly increasing the threshold, and 2) teaching your LOn that sometimes the dogs want to be left alone and to respect those signs.  Most kids who are bit by dogs, are bit in their own homes by dogs they've grown up with.  There's a false assumption that "my dog would never do that to me".  Babies are rough, I know I'm constatnly reminding DD that she has to pet nicely an not pound on the dog out of excitement.  But sometimes it's not the dog at fault and at some point the kids need to be held responsible.  My daughter is 12 mos, and having grown up seeing me train the dogs, I have very high expectations for how she acts around ANY dog.  If she is rough after being told not to, it's not the dogs that are sent away, it's her that goes in her pack n play.  I don't believe in sending my dogs away bc she can't control herself - the control will come with time and until then, I call it like I see it:  dogs are too rough, dogs go in crate; baby too rough, baby goes in pack n play (aka baby crate lol). 

My youngest dog is the one who has growled, and when he does, I don't react to the growl, I simply remove DD (her laying on his is a trigger), and I'll ask the dog to do something - sit, paw, down, and trick to get his focus.  Then I bring DD back into the picture and I place a treat on her had to give him.  It's all about association - little people give me goodies and don't hurt me!  Funny thing is, this dog is the one who brings her toys and loves to roll around on the floor licking her so it's just when he's relaxed he doesn't like to be bothered.

Actually, tonight we had a scenario while my parents were over.  My mother is a bit excessive in her reactions to the dogs (thus her dog is super neurotic).  He's a submissive smiler, meaning he shows teeth when he's nervous and to some it looks like a smile, but to my mother she thinks he's acting aggressive.  DD makes him nervous, not bc he's afraid of babies, but bc every time he's near her, my mother grabs him, or yells at him and it's a vicious cycle.  So I called her out on it tonight.  Not the first time but there was other family over and she was none too happy about it.  Basically DD was walking over to him and bent to pet him, he showed the submissive smile, my mother grabbed his collar and yanked his head back yelling.  I took the dog, had him lay down while I pet him and had DD come pet him too so it ended with a poisitive.  Currently my mother isn't speakng to me, but I told her if the dog bit it would be her (my mother's) fault not his.  So even a dog who was very socialized can be made to be aggressive (fear aggression is the most common) based on the reaction of people.  

[sassyfirechick]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama 

My views with how and why some aspects of GD work may be different from you, which may be why we see the whole praise thing differently. In this scenario I would imagine that depending on a few factors (age, temperament_ and based on my experience with kids, that it was your explanation about why you needed them to sit and you having expressed need of help that motivated their good behavior. Not so much the praise. 

An interesting experiment would be to try both. Do one scenario where you are tell they need to sit (do not explain why) and then reward them or punish them depending on their actions. Do another where you explain why you need them to sit void of any rewards or punishments. My guess is that the second would work much better (especially in the long run). 

Another interesting thing to visualize is why you expect a dog to behave. Are those reasons good enough reasons for humans to display good behavior? I know you mentioned that children and dogs are motivated by "what feels good". I don't think that's such a bad idea but I would say that we expect far more complex thinking from children, maybe especially when they get older. In the end, I do tend to do the right thing because it feels good...but that is a result of a complex moral code developed through a lifetime, yk? 

I agree humans are way more complex and moral codes are developed over a lifetime.  Dogs were chosen as man's best friend bc they are willing to work with us for very little when the bond is there.  And even when it isn't just look at stories of dogs who were abused yet still sought out their abuser bc in the dog world they don't reflect on the past.  That requires complex brain patterns.  They simply live in the moment.  So no moral code there.   

I'd have to think about how I really phrased the kid questions bc I know I don't always react the same.  Kind of depends how much energy I have to deal with them on top of the dog and the parents.  I do really like and prefer working with the younger kids bc they are more of a clean slate and certainly more open to suggestion from me then when they get older and more independant.  I find younger kids I actually have to explain less to.  They seem so excited over the whole concept that if I talk too much I lose them so I keep it pretty short!   

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by sassyfirechick 

I find younger kids I actually have to explain less to.  They seem so excited over the whole concept that if I talk too much I lose them so I keep it pretty short!   

I would say that I really diverge from a lot of the GD advice I've read in terms of how much we need to talk. I definitely think "talk less/listen more" is key at all ages and all temprements. That said, I think it's more important for certain age groups. Active 3 year old anyone? Other ages too. But in general I think we tend to talk too much. Still, that doesn't at all mean I don't think it's important for kids to understand the "whys". I just tend to agree with you that it's a pretty easy concept to get across generally. 

[nd_deadhead]

I think my "parenting" style is similar for dogs and kids. I try to teach them what TO do, instead of what not to do. I use a lot of positive reinforcement, and little or no punishment for dogs or kids.

Obviously as children become verbal, the details change, but the underlying philosophy is basically the same. But for both a young toddler and a puppy I will baby/puppy-proof, I will use distraction, I will ignore inappropriate behavior and praise appropriate behavior.