Why Do People Follow Medical Authorities? - Page 10

[Adaline'sMama]

Originally Posted by pek64 


Ummm...no need to get nasty about the MDC reference. I'd post a link to your thread asking for medical advise, but I can't find it now.

Notice that I didnt say not to ask for medical advice, or not to take it, I said not to adhere to medical advice that you receive on this website ALONE. As in, do not only use this one source in making decisions. I have surely asked for medical advice, and I call my doctor as well. And I go to other websites, look at studies, and talk to other people in my life (like a midwife, a doula, a LC, and other moms that I know IRL.) My point is that if you are unsure as to why this forum needs to exist if doctors are so great, then I just want to be clear that I think only an idiot would ONLY take the advice given here without getting advice from other sources (doctors included). 

For reference:

Quote:

And as far as "why are there places like MDC".....umm...because a lot of MDC is about parenting issues, not medical issues. And come on, what momma wouldnt rather hear advice from 30 moms who have had a similar experience than from a doctor that may or may not have ever breastfed or had kids. Theres a forum for almost everything in the world now days, that doesnt mean that professionals are bad or wrong. It means that people like to talk to their peer group about issues that they are having. And let's face it, people on MDC are not always right. No one should be adhering medical advice from this website alone. 

It seems like the thread is really asking "why do people follow medical authorities BLINDLY?" not just "why do people follow medical authorities?"

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

 Kathy feels doctors should be held to a higher standard than all other practitioners. Others seem to want all doctors to be perfect compassionate listeners all the time. Others expect to never receive bad advice.
Wake up people. If you don't want doctors to be treated like gods, then stop expecting them to perform like one.

Of course I hold doctors to a higher standard than other practitioners.  They prescribe drugs (while most alt. healthcare providers do not) which can have very serious side effects.  Vaccines are mandatory or very close to mandatory in some states; any drug that is close to mandatory and any person that dispenses such a drug should be held to a high standard.

As per equating that to "treating a doctor like a god" that is a stretch.   I have never said or implied doctors were gods.  Some doctors do come across as high and mighty (personal experience), while others have more respect for people.  It is pretty variable.

Originally Posted by rightkindofme 

kathy--I really wish I could do well with just any doctor. The last time I tried to find a GP (it's been a year because my insurance only covers one exam a year and I'm due to try to find another doctor soon) I was told that she wouldn't work with me on my stomach pain or send me to physical therapy for my arms until I dealt with my psychiatric problems. Wouldn't work with me. Then I went to psychiatry and was told that either I start taking this pill she wants me on (I don't remember which one but it has a laundry list of nasty side effects--like they do) and it would necessitate that I stop breastfeeding. Because my kid was over one she was very snotty and dismissive.

I get this.  I think being able to be cavalier about which doctor you have is somewhat of a luxury - a luxury of good health, primarily.

If I had more intense or complicated issues, I might have to be pickier with my doctor.

Sorry you have had such crappy experiences.  

Edited by kathymuggle - 11/30/12 at 6:27pm

[WildKingdom]

Nurse practitioners prescribe drugs. So do PAs. So do nurse midwives. So do naturopaths, in at least 10 states. So do psychologists, in Oregon. Are they held to the same standard?

[kathymuggle]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

Nurse practitioners prescribe drugs. So do PAs. So do nurse midwives. So do naturopaths, in at least 10 states. So do psychologists, in Oregon. Are they held to the same standard?

I would hold anyone prescribing a drug to a high standard.

I think vaccines are extra worthy of looking into because they are given prophylactically to healthy infants

Edited by kathymuggle - 11/30/12 at 6:34pm

[prosciencemum]

It's a bit hard to expect doctors being trained in the mainstream to be taught ideas which are not supported by main stream science. My main hope is that they are taught (and given enough time) to keep up with on going developments in vaccine safety and best practices (and the same for other drugs and treatments). If you are right that vaccine reactions are so much more common than the current evidence suggests then i am confident the balance of evidence will change and eventually they will be taught it I'm sure. There are examples of vaccine recommendations changing when unacceptable reaction rates were revealed (shift to current pertussis vaccine is an example I think - also polio vaccines if I recall).

I don't think I've ever asked for or been given parenting advice from doctors.

In the uk we have "health visitors" (nurses specializing in home visits to families of new babies - plus they do a 2 year check and weekly drop in baby clinics which anyone can go to). They do give advice on things which I disagree with (like recommending people try crying it out methods to improve sleep patterns, and recommendations about weaning schedules I disagreed with), but I always took this as an opinion I could listen to but was not required to follow. Where they were really helpful was in noticing extended jaundice in my son. We saw him everyday so it needed fresh eyes to point out he really wasn't quite the right colour. In the end it was nothing and faded on its own, but I'm glad we had the checks for more serious things it could have been pointing to.

[Taximom5]

"It's a bit hard to expect doctors being trained in the mainstream to be taught ideas which are not supported by main stream science."
Then please explain why doctors and, in fact, the entire health care industry is mandating the flu shot, when mainstream science in the form of the Cochrane review has concluded that it is not effective?

Oh, wait, that's right doctors and the health care industry are taught to trust and rely on industry-funded propaganda, which contains lies for the express purpose of increasing sales.

[contactmaya]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

I think they need to be held to a higher standard given the nature of what they do.  They prescribe pharmaceuticals. Pharmaceutical usage has a lot of inherent dangers (and benefits) where as most activities suggested by alternative practitioners do not carry the same degree of risk.

Article - for those who will read Mercola

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/01/14/which-are-more-dangerous-alternative-medicines-or-prescription-drugs.aspx

http://www.foodconsumer.org/newsite/Non-food/Drug/alternative_medicines_2412100333.html

Thankyou for pointing that out. They are, by their 'licence', expect to be held to a higher standard. 

[contactmaya]

Originally Posted by rightkindofme 

If you have the ability to "set priorities" then you already have a level of privilege not available to everyone.

here here!

[rightkindofme]

WildKingdom--even though I agree with many of your points you just crossed the line. Ad hominem attacks are a sign of poor ability to reason and use logic. I think they are beneath you.

[kathymuggle]

This turn in the conversation around expectations is interesting, and tied up, I beleive, in trust.

Are patients expectations with regards to doctors too high - and is that why trust is inevitably broken?  And if that is the case, who is responsible for this?  Media? Patients themselves?  Doctors?  History?

As for myself, I do not believe I have unreasonably high expectations of doctors.

I have always had GP's.  I do not expect them to know everything about every subject in medicine - although I do expect them to refer people when they are out of their depths, which they generally have.  I do not expect them to know everything about vaccines.  That being said, I think it is reasonable to expect that I am going to go to other sources to get information if a doctor cannot supply it to the degree I want (either due to lack of knowledge or lack of  time).

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

Why would you expect doctors to know this:

Quote:

severe vaccine reactions are far more prevalent than the vaccine manufacturers will admit, and that they are not always immediately obvious, such as in the case of vaccine-induced autoimmune disorders, which may be immediately triggered, but may still take weeks to become obvious, by which time, nobody correlates them vaccines.  The same can be true of vaccine-induced seizure disorders, which can occur weeks after a vaccine.

 

when it is not accepted by mainstream medicine? 

Considering that it's only been just over 100-odd years since doctors could be bothered to wash their hands between going to autopsies and "helping" pregnant women, hopefully in about another 100 years they can see what was in front of their eyes but refused to acknowledge about vaccine reactions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildKingdom 

 

And this:

Quote:

Why would your "many hours" of training about breastfeeding be enough, when lactation consultants know far more than you about it?

 

Another perfect example.  You expect doctors to be lactation consultants, too.  Where did I ever say I knew as much as a lactation consultant?  I specifically said that they knew at least 10x as much as me.  

 

You must've missed all the posts that talked about how it's fine that doctors need not be knowledgeable about lactation or co-sleeping; however, if they don't know about these subjects they should keep their mouths shut and focus on what they do know best. It doesn't seem too much to ask for, but I'm probably wrong.

[BeckyBird]

So now it's alright to call each other names? Instead of Privately PMing, flagging the post, or openly saying something like "your post was condescending", we've stooped down to name-calling......Idiot and Twit are certainly against the rules!

[Chicharronita]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle 

This turn in the conversation around expectations is interesting, and tied up, I beleive, in trust.

Are patients expectations with regards to doctors too high - and is that why trust is inevitably broken?  And if that is the case, who is responsible for this?  Media? Patients themselves?  Doctors?  History?

As for myself, I do not believe I have unreasonably high expectations of doctors.

I have always had GP's.  I do not expect them to know everything about every subject in medicine - although I do expect them to refer people when they are out of their depths, which they generally have.  I do not expect them to know everything about vaccines.  That being said, I think it is reasonable to expect that I am going to go to other sources to get information if a doctor cannot supply it to the degree I want (either due to lack of knowledge or lack of  time).

There are a few that are okay with this. A friend of mine has a great anti-vaccine doctor who actually welcomes the new information she lets him know about. But now he is so popular in AP circles it's difficult to get an appointment with him.

[Imakcerka]

Originally Posted by BeckyBird 

Honestly, I did not know this. I don't PM others I disagree with, and I've only flagged posts maybe 2-3 times ever, for those rare obvious one post trolls who come on and are over the top. Yes, 2 or 3 times ever.   I don't flag the regulars, even though we always disagree. 

Trust me, there have been many, MANY times I wanted to use words like "twit" or "idiot".

Well yes, I'll admit I'm being immature but it doesn't matter where you disagree here or how you do it.  It does matter who you are though. 

[major_mama11]

Originally Posted by Taximom5 

Apparently you didn't receive enough training to learn that severe vaccine reactions are far more prevalent than the vaccine manufacturers will admit, and that they are not always immediately obvious, such as in the case of vaccine-induced autoimmune disorders, which may be immediately triggered, but may still take weeks to become obvious, by which time, nobody correlates them vaccines.  The same can be true of vaccine-induced seizure disorders, which can occur weeks after a vaccine.

Why would your "many hours" of training about breastfeeding be enough, when lactation consultants know far more than you about it?

Why would you even think that MD's know ANYTHING about parenting, unless they've had children themselves?  Did you take classes in medical school on how to be a parent? For decades, doctors have given mothers advice about how to parent, including such gems as "don't pick up the baby between feedings, you'll spoil him," and "don't let the baby sleep in your bed because then he'll want it all the time," and "don't feed the baby more than every 2-3 hours, or you'll spoil him, " "babies need to cry a certain amount every day to exercise the lungs, it's the baby's exercise," etc.

Seems to me that there's an extraordinary mix of sexism and snobbery in the assumption that  mothers should view  doctors as parenting experts.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I'm locking this thread until a moderator has time to have a look. 

[Mosaic]

Ok, y'all, I was off enjoying a winter day with my girls, but I'm here now. Give me a chance to get caught up, and I'll see what I can do about opening this back up. Thanks ICM!!

[Mosaic]

I have deleted several posts which violated the MDC User Agreement by being personally-targeted as opposed to on-topic. I'm sure there are some I've missed, but I did my best.

Additionally, I feel that this thread has strayed away from "Why Do People Follow Medical Authorities" to "Why DON'T people follow medical authorities?" Or maybe "What medical authorities study/know or don't". Or perhaps "How to break the UA while Mosaic is off doing fun weekend things."

In all seriousness, though, I think there have been some really interesting and valuable insights here about the doctor-patient relationship, expectations we hold, the role "advice" holds in our decision-making, etc. I don't want to close this conversation down because I think it is helpful and worthy; however, this particular thread has gotten so personal that I feel the original theme has gotten diluted or even lost.

I'm leaving this thread closed, but I invite you to start new threads if there are themes you'd like to delve into deeper (as long as y'all stay within the UA). Thanks for understanding!