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Is being AP a whole pick and choose whatever you want and do away with the rest? - Page 6

post #101 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy
It's not that I think a seven year old is incapable of carrying advice forward... it just sounds to me like she doesn't take you seriously ever, and perhaps that's because she doesn't feel like you take *her* seriously.
<snip>
Your daughter seems to have decided, for some reason, that she can't take you seriously in this respect, so her actions reflect that. It's not that she doesn't know or can't remember or that she's faking it, she's just decided that since you don't respect her she won't respect you...
I couldn't disagree more.

Kara, I think it isn't at all that your daughter has decided not to take you seriously because of anything you have done. In fact, I would bet that she feels the freedom to test this out because of the respect that you have shown her.

Children that haven't been shown respect don't feel safe enough to blatently disobey or constantly question their parents.

Not taking your parents seriously and refusing to comply until *you* decide to is a normal part of childhood, particularly this age. My 9yo still feels that his judgement should supercede my own. He must know everything and question everything. He would *never* jump in the car because of my tone, he would definitely ask me what was going on/linger trying to figure it out himself. Then he'd try to "help" me handle it (can't you imagine what "help" he has been when I was pulled over for going through a yellow light?).

AP is no guarantee for a perfect kid and having your child be rude or disobediant or anything else doesn't mean you aren't doing it all perfectly. It is the nature of children to defy their parents- that's healthy development. Let's not get into the blame the mom game or tell her she just isn't attached enough or respectful enough because her daughter doesn't always obey. That kind of thinking can come back to bite you on the rear in time.
post #102 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by laralou
I couldn't disagree more.

Kara, I think it isn't at all that your daughter has decided not to take you seriously because of anything you have done. In fact, I would bet that she feels the freedom to test this out because of the respect that you have shown her.

Children that haven't been shown respect don't feel safe enough to blatently disobey or constantly question their parents.

Thank you, thank you for posting this. I have often thought to myself that at least my dd can question me and obviously feels quite comfortable doing so! Although it is very fusterating because it is an all day thing alot of the time!!
post #103 of 137
I wanted to mention, Kara, that we can all read the same book and have it come out differently. So much of parenting in a healing way involves healing ourselves. To be GD, you must feel GD either intuitively (because you were raised that way) or consciously, because you have been working on it for some time. I'm betting that the problem isn't so much that you haven't read the right book, or that you aren't applying the books correctly, I think you are just coming up against issues that are tough for you, because of who you are and your life experiences.

Now I'm going to recommend another book, lol. It's called "Giving the Love that Heals: a guide for parents" by Harville Hendrix. Yes, it's about GD and how to communicate effectively with your kids. But he goes way beyond that. He also talks about you, the parent, and helps you figure out why certain things are "issues" for you. Usually, the issues we have with our kids are issues we have within ourselves. In his book, he talks alot about this. I think you might find it helpful. Or at least interesting! It's one I go back to again and again and again...
post #104 of 137
Forgive me if i repeat but I haven't read all the post - I do think you can pick and choose. AP m,eans atttatchment parenting and I think the "rules" are instead more of a set of tools to help you attatch to your child. Being attatched is what it is all about. not how you attatch. Also you may not not know what another baby needs. Some really hate being held in a sling. For some family bed makes the parents resentful and put distance between child and parent. Nursing may be imposible or such a stuggle that it hurts the relationship. Each of my children have been different and needed different things. I wouldn't have been a Mothering poster mom with any of them. All of themlike time alone on the floor to explore rather than being in the sling, they all loved the swing, one wanting to be in it every waking moment. (she still owuld swing all day if I let her). I think whatever works towards bringing parents into a close responsive relationship to thier children and has them judging each situation and it needs rather than acting according to a predetermined set of rules counts as AP.
post #105 of 137
Laralou,
Thanks! I needed to hear that!! And my story at the end of my last post is illustration of how it is always darkest before dawn! :LOL Just when I think we are a hopeless case something like that happens! And I thought it was so funny about the "help" you got from your son when pulled over. The same day I pulled over to nurse dd2 a security guard came to tell me I was on private property and dd1 pipes up to explain that I had to pull over to nurse the baby. I made a strangled noise and she stopped midsentence. He started to turn around, thought better of it and kept walking. Whew!

Piglet, I think you hit the nail on the head! It is particularly enlightening to watch dd's relationship with my mother. bwa ha ha ha! She takes care of the girls when I am working and it has been interesting to see her try to take care of my daughter "my way" rather than relying on what she did with us as kids.

Lilyka, I have always thought that you rocked!
post #106 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by eilonwy
... it just sounds to me like she doesn't take you seriously ever, and perhaps that's because she doesn't feel like you take *her* seriously.
Okay, I know it's weird to quote yourself, but I wanted to re-emphasize something: I never said that you don't respect your daughter or take her seriously, I said that perhaps she doesn't feel like you take her seriously. Those are two entirely different statements; I never meant to make you feel attacked in any way, and I'm sorry if I did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by laralou
I would bet that she feels the freedom to test this out because of the respect that you have shown her.

Children that haven't been shown respect don't feel safe enough to blatently disobey or constantly question their parents.
I would argue instead that children who feel that they are entitled to respect will always disobey and question anyone who they feel doesn't respect them, for whatever reason. It's not a matter of security, it's a matter of entitlement. I can remember spending a lot of time around adults who didn't respect me (teachers, for example) and questioning/disobeying them at every turn. They didn't respect me, so I didn't respect them; it was very very simple. I'm sure that some of those adults would have argued that they did respect children in general and me in particular, but it doesn't change the fact that I didn't feel like they respected me and my actions always reflected that.

Kara, a bright child is often one who questions constantly, and she may not see that as respect or comfort at all, but rather an attempt to glean more information. I was always willing and able to ask questions of anyone, because I knew that I was entitled to respect. It didn't matter if the person I was asking was comfortable with my question, or if I thought they respected me; what mattered was that I got my answers.
post #107 of 137
Eilonwy,

It's okay. I don't feel attacked. This whole discussion has been profoundly enlightening, from the pick and choose aspect, to the spanking tangent, to the children deserve respect topic. And speaking of respect I was responding to the very last paragraph in the post you are referring to (sorry, I haven't figured out how to quote, yet).

I'm curious, how old are you? Is it possible that you are an Indigo? It sounds like it. I do appreciate hearing what your POV was as a child, because I was not like that and it sounds like you were a lot like Sophia is. Just tonight she was wanting to know why children get "a talking to" when they make a mistake and adults do not. I tried to explain that adults *do* sometimes get a talking to as well as other consequences, but I think she may have been driving at the whole adults go by different rules,children are equal, children should be respected the same as grownups thing, which of course is at the heart of AP. My one nagging frustration with this concept, though, is that if children are not different, do not need to be "raised" then why do people not just arrive on this planet as adults, kwim?
post #108 of 137
post #109 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by lunachele
I wish I was creative enough to envision another alternative that a mind wrapped in fear would move to so readily in that instant, but I suspect out of instinct, in that moment, I would swat a behind.
If you are close enough to hit, then you are close enough to pick up the child and move him or her out of the danger. My kids, 6 and 2, know not to touch the stove or run out into traffic, and they have never been hit. The 2yo might try to run away, but we're close enough to get him. If spanking really worked, it would only have to be done once in regard to running out into the street, or whatever else. I've been known to scream my head off like a madwoman when one of my kids is close to putting himself in danger. That gets their attention, too, and while it might scare them, it does not physically harm them. You can't hit a kid when you are on the porch and they are headed into the road.
post #110 of 137
Sofiamomma - Okay colour me dumb or something but the air freshener incident? She is just being a normal child! Yeah it wasn't a smart thing to do, and you had told her not too, but that's how kids learn. Its all trial and error. She heard you say it wasn't a good idea but she still wondered maybe, just maybe it would smell really nice. Well she found out it didnt. No biggie IMO. Oppositional defiant disorder techniques needed? Not in my opinion.

"Last week I took dd out to eat. She was crying and the waitress came over to see what was wrong. She sat down and talked to dd like she was a real person and really helped her feel better. (Dd was upset about child labor laws. She wants a job.) Dd kind of glommed on to the lady after that. She does that. Kind of gets obsessed with people. So she's grabbing the lady around the waist and not letting go. As her mother I realized she needed to be stopped right then and not let it go further, but when I tried she waved me off. "Oh, it's fine. She's okay." When it was time to go I gave dd the check and sent her to pay, thinking that would distract her from the waitress. She didn't want to leave her, and I was trying to get her to go so the gal could get back to work, but she went with her. When the check was paid, dd was hanging off her, being totally inappropriate. The waitress said she needed to get back to work a few times, but dd wouldn't let go. Of course, at the same time I am trying to talk to her too. Finally, I start counting and she lets go. I could tell by the look on the lady's face that she was upset. When we got to the car I was trying to talk to dd about it, but she was blowing me off. Finally, I started yelling and only then did she listen to me. Today we went back to that same restaurant and I apologized to the waitress, but she never once came near us. I felt horrible. I was so humilitated and also sad for dd that she lacks these social skills and I can't figure out how to teach her without yelling. My insides were all twisted up. She was pretty nice on the way out, so I felt better, but I could barely eat, my stomach hurt so much."

Maybe you need to talk less in this situation and act more. I would not have let it go on at all, I would have taken her arms and taken them off the woman and made her walk away. I don't understand why you would be sitting there talking instead of just pulling her off.

"Another example: We are in the car, dd2 needs to go to sleep. Dd1 is reading aloud. Dd2 starts to fuss every time dd1 speaks. So I say "You need to stop now, please." I didn't explain. Dd2 didn't any more talking and dd1 is smart enough to figure it out. Besides which she needs to not argue with me every time I ask her to do something or not to. So she keeps reading, because of course she isn't finished. I say "now", she keeps on I say, louder, "Now!", she keeps on and I am livid! I yell "NOW!, Not when you are done, not when you decide, when I say so!" Of course, now the baby is crying because I am yelling. I pull over, get the baby out, calm her down and nurse her, put her back in her car seat and ask dd1 to get out of the car. I tell she may ride home with me in the car if she can mind. I say I do not owe her an explanation every time I ask her to do something. If she needs to know why she can ask me later at an appropriate time. She agrees and the rest of the trip home is uneventful" I think you are expecting too much from her. Do you remember being seven? It is very hard for a child to be quiet, especially in the middle of the day. You don't seem to be respecting her feelings at all. You said you didn't explain why because the baby didn't need more talking but look what it is escalated into. Forgetting the fact that I don't think its fair to expect a 7 year old to be silent in the car you could have said, "Sweetie you are doing such a wonderful job reading but the baby really needs to go to sleep now. Please be quiet so she can sleep and when we get home you and I can sit together and you can read the rest to me. I would love to hear your book. Why don't you look out the window and see what you can see and when we get home we can talk about it?" Would that really have been so hard? In all the posts about your elder daughter your tone is very harsh IMO. You seem very resentful of her and your expectations of her are too high IMO. She is just a little girl and contrary to what you may beleive she is NOT trying to make your life difficult, she is just going about the business of growing up.
post #111 of 137
post #112 of 137
I think it is important for people to work on that instinct to hit in situations like that. Honestly, it just doesn't occur to me to hit my kids when they are already in danger. That is probably because my parents never hit me. Same with my husband. It just doesn't occur to us to hit our kids in any situation. I've seen lots of people get over that, and train themselves to get rid of that instinct to hit. It is learned. I do not think it is something that is part of our evolutionary defense mechanisms that we have to protect our kids.

I think, too, about adults caring for their elderly parents. My grandfather has Alzheimer's Disease and has to be watched closely. We would all be horrified if someone hit him to warn him of danger. I've seen kids who couldn't even walk yet being spanked for putting their fingers in the electrical outlets, etc. My grandfather probably wouldn't do that, but he will walk out into traffic.

I guess I don't understand the argument that hitting in those types of dangerous situations is somehow okay or more acceptable than hitting for other perceived misbehaviors. In those types of situations parents' adrenaline is high, and it seems like those times, when you don't have total control over yourself, are more dangerous. A parent who is reacting out of fear or anger just isn't going to be thinking about exactly how hard they are hitting their kid. It also teaches the kid, if anything, that they shouldn't do whatever because mom or dad will hit me, not because the behavior is dangerous. What if mom and dad aren't looking? Will the kid still perceive it as dangerous? In a group care setting, I can almost always tell which kids are spanked and which are not. Those that are spanked are more likely to be devious and secretive when they do mess up. Research backs this up-- spanking doesn't deter misbehavior, it simply makes kids more devious about it.

I don't think you are saying that spanking is okay. There seems to be this need to explain away spanking as something that "isn't so bad all the time", when it really is. I think a lot of well-meaning parents hit because they either don't know how to discipline without punishing or don't understand how dangerous it is to hit a child.
post #113 of 137
I forgot to add-- many kids have died when the parents didn't intend for them to die. There was a case a few years ago in my town where a man was spanking his child, six years old, because he was playing on some train tracks. Dangerous, for sure. The kid tried to get away from him, naturally, and tripped and hit his head on a cinder block. The kid died and the dad went to jail. Did he intend for the kid to die? No, he probably thought he was protecting his child by trying to teach him not to play on the train tracks. When I worked in social services, we would see kids all the time with injuries caused by spanking that the parents certainly didn't intend. We heard all the time, "I didn't really hit her that hard." Sometimes you don't have to hit very hard for these things to happen.

And comparing degrees of abuse is just pointless. Either it is abuse or it isn't, and hitting someone for non-self-defense reasons is abuse. A large person hitting a small person, exercising power over that person (as we sometimes forget that a child is still a person) using physical force is abuse.
post #114 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sofiamomma
Eilonwy,

It's okay. I don't feel attacked. This whole discussion has been profoundly enlightening, from the pick and choose aspect, to the spanking tangent, to the children deserve respect topic. And speaking of respect I was responding to the very last paragraph in the post you are referring to (sorry, I haven't figured out how to quote, yet).

I'm curious, how old are you? Is it possible that you are an Indigo? It sounds like it. I do appreciate hearing what your POV was as a child, because I was not like that and it sounds like you were a lot like Sophia is.
T There's a "Quote" button at the bottom of every post, if you click on it it'll quote the entire post in your reply.

I'm 26. I've read a bit about Indigos and the description definately fits me, especially as a child. Many perfect strangers have mentioned that I am an Indigo sort, or that I have a lot of indigo in my aura, for most of my life. I think I'd be kind of old for it, but hey, it's all good. :LOL


Quote:
Just tonight she was wanting to know why children get "a talking to" when they make a mistake and adults do not. I tried to explain that adults *do* sometimes get a talking to as well as other consequences, but I think she may have been driving at the whole adults go by different rules,children are equal, children should be respected the same as grownups thing, which of course is at the heart of AP. My one nagging frustration with this concept, though, is that if children are not different, do not need to be "raised" then why do people not just arrive on this planet as adults, kwim?
Okay, this is gonna sound at first like it's all semantics, but hear me out. Children don't need to be "raised", they need to be "guided". Raising implies directing the child along a certain path, while guidance implies an awareness that while a child needs to choose their path, it may not be the one which would be ideal for you. It's like the difference between "training" and "teaching"; one implies coersion, the other does not.

I honestly believe that children do not need to be coerced. They do need guidance, but if they need direction they tend to ask for it. I can't just "train" a child because I don't expect them to mind me; I never would have tolerated that as a kid. It was always a mystery to me that parents who did this were surprised when their children fought against them. Eventually, I came to the conclusion that the vast majority of adults simply don't remember what it felt like to be a child. I was very lucky in this respect, because my mother *did* remember. Her parents also remembered, and were generally more respectful towards her as a result.

Learning social rules is very difficult, especially when you're expected to interact with a group of the population who abides by different rules. I can remember a little old lady bending down towards me and saying "Oh, you're so cute! How old are you?" and I said "I'm two and a half. How old are you?" very politely. She was stunned, and she and her friend had a bit of a giggle about it as they walked away. I asked my mom about it and she said "It's not considered polite to ask adults how old they are." I said, "Why not? They're always asking me!" She said she had no idea, that it never made any sense to her as a child and it didn't make any sense to her as an adult. So I learned a lesson, with no coersion: That adult rules don't make any sense, and that I wasn't the only person who thought so. And now, if I ask a child how old they are, and they ask me I tell them. I tend to abide by rules that make sense to me.

Kids have lots of things to learn, and quite frankly adults do too. (I know I do, at any rate!) That doesn't mean that they need to be raised, though, only that they need to be taught. Does that make any sense?
post #115 of 137
post #116 of 137
Heavenly,

I do appreciate responses to my dilemmas and yours is a common one: that I expect too much of my daughter. Perhaps that is true. I really don't know. I'm just doing my best, kwim? And this is my child and I know her pretty well. She isn't anybody else's child or anybody else when they were a child. Those POV may provide insight, but I feel like she often plays dumb and I can't figure out what to do about it. I'm not so sure spraying air freshener up your nose after someone who would know about stuff like that told you that it doesn't work that way and how it does work is all that "normal." I worry about her because she does seem to need to learn things the hard way. And I was just trying to give an example that showed what I meant by not believing me about stuff. Sheacoby has a child who is like Sophia so she "got" it.

And to reply to your question why I didn't just remove her bodily from the waitress, the answer is twofold. One, I only have two hands! I am not going to just set my baby down in a crowded restaurant to physically remove my 7 year old from a situation she is capable of removing herself from. Counting was quicker than finding someplace safe to put Ellie and all my "stuff." The other part of that answer is that she is getting too old for physical redirection. When I put my hands on her I can feel in my gut that her strong muscular arms are not for me to be getting hold of to redirect her.

And the whole car/baby sleeping incident. No, I don't remember being seven. Just a few stand out memories here and there. And yes, my older *is* capable of being quiet, even in the middle of the day, for the few minutes it takes for Ellie to fall asleep. She just didn't want to stop what she was doing. It wasn't about not reading or not being able to be quiet. Very simply put she wanted to finish what she was doing, because that is what she wanted to do. Also, the whole "Sweetie, you are doing a good job reading, why don't you. . .blah, blah, blah," my dd would hear that as very patronizing. I don't talk to her like that. She's seven, not three, and she's a very old seven at that.

And I have acknowlegded already that my avoiding an explanation to prevent further talking completely backfired because I did not control my temper. That was the whole point of giving the example. I mean, Geez, are you a perfect mother? One of the reasons I have such a hard time coming here and posting in gentle discipline is because I get responses like yours when I leave myself wide ipen for criticism.

I *do* resent my older daughter. It's not rocket science! However, I do love her and want to be the best mom I can to her. That is why I ask for help and support. She and I are completely different from one another. I have a *very* hard time with her. Do you think I *like* having these feelings? I have been really upset by them. In fact, after my little one came along I even posted a thread about the dark side of mothering because it is so hard to deal with stuff like this.

Also, we have wonderful times together and times when I do do things right, but that is not what this conversation is about, although I did post an example of what a great kid she was at her swimming lesson last week.



Eilonwy,
I'll wager you are an Indigo. You're not too old. I've known dd1 was one since before she was born. As I was saying above, I don't remember much about being a child, so I do appreciate hearing your examples from your childhood. I used the word "raised" and put it quotes, because I was in a hurry and did not have time to be more elaborate. I do mean guided and taught. I guess I just don't understand why she even needs a mom if being a child is no different from being an adult.

P.S. What if I only want to quote a few sentences? That is what I haven't figured out how to do.
post #117 of 137
But WHY do you have to tap them on the bottom, lightly or otherwise? Can you honestly say that there is NOTHING else that will work at all? I don't believe that and I think its a cop-out. I used to spank and I haven't in 3 weeks now and I am very proud of that. There have been many moments (I have two spirited children 3 and 1.5) that I would LIKE to have been able to spank but I know it is wrong. I think the issue is whether or not you view children just as worthy of respect as you. Do you view children as just a smaller human being? Because if you do there is no way if you truly search your heart that you will be able to justify hitting them. And calling it abuse is not minimalizing other abuse. If someone slaps there husband that's abuse just as well as if they beat the living hell out of him with a baseball bat. They are both abuse, regardless of the severity. It IS abuse to hit another person. There is no reason that you need to hit your child.
post #118 of 137
No I am not a perfect mother by a long shot. I just came out putting my daughter down from a nap and my son had peed all over the floor on purpose (a weird thing he has started doing). I wanted to smack him so hard. But I didn't, I'm learning. I didn't yell either thank goodness. Okay maybe that would be too patronizing but asking her to work with you rather than demanding she do something would probably help.

What is an Indigo?
post #119 of 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mothra
I think it is important for people to work on that instinct to hit in situations like that....I've seen lots of people get over that, and train themselves to get rid of that instinct to hit. It is learned.
I do really understand this. There is one incident that really stands out in my mind. I was jogging with my dog in a quiet residential neighbourhood. She was off-leash trained and usually very good at healing. Well, at one point she ran out towards the street just as a car came by (too fast), and she almost got hit. I can totally recall that feeling of total fear that overcame me, and the very first thing I did was whack her hard on the rump - I mean really hard. I felt AWFUL afterwards!! And honestly, I don't think it did a lick of good - she was already freaked out by the car coming so close. But from that point onwards I recognized that instinct for what it was, and I worked consiously on it and I never did it again. I have not been in such a situation with my DD yet, but I know in my heart that I would not hit her b/c I am now aware of that reaction.

By the way, I don't know that anybody here has suggested that spanking is an appropriate or even useful tool, just that many have resorted to it when faced with a lack of options. Seems people are trying to convince us why spanking is bad, and I'm not sure anybody here has said it isn't...? Are we preaching to the choir?
post #120 of 137
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