December 2012 Rockstar Mamas - Page 15

[akind1]

It's one to say to a woman: "well just say this. Refuse to do this" when you are in the moment and really doing those things, you need a strong background support team. It's hard to go it alone. It's why I feel doulas are so important. Women NEED that support. I can and did say, I'll take that into consideration, etc, and I did. I try not to dismiss docs out of hand- I make them explain themselves.
For a lot of women speaking up is a real fight. It takes some courage when you are at your most vulnerable. And then - should things not go to plan - you second guess yourself.

It sounds like you two do needs mediator of some sort. I hope Sean will agree to that.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by AnnieA 

MW, do you think that he has true disdain for gentle parenting, home birth, no circ, etc. or does he just not feel that it's his fight to fight? I know that my DH agrees with me on most of that stuff but he doesn't feel passionately one way or the other about them so doesn't feel the need to defend them. He does feel strongly about patent infringements and copyright issues and I don't care either way. He does talk about that stuff. Is it kind of like that?

When he rolls his eyes and huffs and says things like, "Do you have to advertise?", it sure feels like disdain. He wouldn't have cared if I didn't breastfeed and he's still not 100% in agreement on AP or unschooling. When I left the decision about whether or not to circ up to him, he chose to circ Ethan. He would most definitely choose disposable diapers over cloth if I let him. He goes along with me on a lot of things because I will not compromise on those things.

I don't know of anything that my dh is passionate about. He really doesn't get worked up about anything. The thing is that I don't see how telling someone that I couldn't be at a function because I couldn't be away from our breastfed baby for so long would be a fight. It's not any business of anyone else. He wouldn't even need to respond to anyone who made any kind of snarky comment. I guess if he felt he had to, he could just say that is what I do. Whatever...

I just don't really understand why he would care so much why a bunch of virtual strangers that won't have any real, long lasting role in our lives think about us. I could maybe buy that one of his bosses somewhere along the line might right up a bad fit rep because s/he didn't like me but, technically, they aren't allowed to do that. There are ways to appeal and refute those things. Ultimately, the worse that could happen at this point would be that he would not get promoted past Major. The thing with that is that it's very likely he won't get promoted past Major, anyway, just because he's old. He may not have enough time to get Lt. Colonel before being too old to do much of anything. And, if that happened, so what? Major is pretty high up there. The pay and benefits are more than enough for us to live comfortably. He's not too old that he couldn't have another decent career after the Marine Corps if he retires after 20 years of service. It would be highly unlikely that he wouldn't be able to get a relatively decent job with a college degree and retiring from military service as a Major. He would get preference for any federal government job.

Originally Posted by AnnieA 

Medical care stuff and refusing treatment/care. My only concern with those things is that if you refuse a treatment course or surgery, can your insurance refuse to cover the charges incurred for the alternate path taken? I know that when people have left the hospital AMA that their insurance could/did refuse to cover the charges. We have two hospitals in my town. One is private and my understanding is they can refuse to treat someone. The other hospital, where Ava gets all of her cardiology stuff done, is a public hospital and they can't refuse to treat anyone.

Hmm...I've never heard of an insurance company not paying for a cheaper option. I don't know about leaving a hospital AMA.

On private hospitals, there is this:

"In the case of pregnant women in labor, an emergency medical condition exists if there is not sufficient time to deliver the baby at another facility or if the unborn child is at critical risk and needs assistance." http://www.ascensionhealth.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=146&Itemid=172

It does say that only hospitals that receive federal funds are obligated. However, I read elsewhere that it essentially covers all hospitals because there are very few hospitals that do not at least accept Medicare and/or Medicaid.

This one is better. It states that a private hospital can only refuse treatment for non-emergencies and labor is considered an emergency. This is talking about someone without insurance and no other means to pay but that's just for the sake of example. The obligation is not limited to inability to pay.

"Imagine a pregnant woman without health insurance living in an area that does not have a public hospital. If she goes into labor and the closest hospital is privately-run, the EMTLA requires that the hospital must admit the woman regardless of her ability to pay as childbirth is considered an emergency situation." http://law.freeadvice.com/malpractice_law/hospital_malpractice/hospital-patients.htm

Originally Posted by AnnieA 

One thing I discovered when I was pregnant with Ava was that it became a much more difficult choice for me when it was a "real" choice to make rather than an abstract discussion, you know? I had to really weigh out all the pros and cons and decide if I could live with the potential risk. I had to go through those same motions when researching vaccines for Ava. In theory, I don't much see the need for vaccines. But Ava's health issues were a game changer there. So I had to dig a little deeper. And I had to look at actual numbers of VPDs and decide if I was comfortable with that risk. It's just reinforcement for me though that women need to be better informed and take more responsibility for their healthcare instead of just trusting what's told to them.

Yes, and this is exactly what I was talking about. You had specific emergent issues with your baby. That's not the same as a doctor telling a woman that she has to have a c-section solely because she had one before without any other indication that there are other dangers. For example, my midwives wanted me to have ultrasounds to make sure that my placenta was not attached to my surgical scar. If it had been, they would have sent me to the hospital. That would have been a specific emergent issue for me.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by akind1 

It's one to say to a woman: "well just say this. Refuse to do this" when you are in the moment and really doing those things, you need a strong background support team. It's hard to go it alone. It's why I feel doulas are so important. Women NEED that support. I can and did say, I'll take that into consideration, etc, and I did. I try not to dismiss docs out of hand- I make them explain themselves.
For a lot of women speaking up is a real fight. It takes some courage when you are at your most vulnerable. And then - should things not go to plan - you second guess yourself.

I didn't think you were talking about having to make a decision like that in the moment. I thought you were talking about people in the beginning choosing a care provider. Those are two very different situations. I have been in the situation of having to make the decision between surgery or not sort of in the moment.

I didn't know a c-section was recommended when I was pregnant with Ryan until I was in labor, just before I headed to the hospital. I had had a midwife my entire pregnancy. I took Lamaze classes and planned to have drug free labor and birth. I had to make the decision to agree to surgery and shift all of my expectations in the 30 minute drive to the hospital. I ended up being in labor at the hospital for about 8 hours before I finally had the surgery. I was fine the entire time until the anesthesiologist came in to explain how the epidural would work. He had to do it three times because they kept putting me off for emergencies. I was not an emergency only because I was still in the early stages of labor and my baby was not in distress. I didn't have any extra support other than my mother. I hadn't heard of doulas back then. So, I've been there. I know how that is. Being informed goes a long way in helping to make that decision.

If a woman has trouble speaking up, then she needs to find someone who will speak up for her. That would ideally be her partner. If not her partner, than maybe another family member or a doula. But if she really wants to do it a certain way, she needs to take all the steps to ensure that it happens that way. If she isn't willing to do the work needed, then she is choosing another path. Women (people) need to take responsibility for themselves. If they aren't capable of doing that, then they need to accept that others are going to dictate what they do.

[AnnieA]

Originally Posted by MarineWife 


When he rolls his eyes and huffs and says things like, "Do you have to advertise?", it sure feels like disdain. He wouldn't have cared if I didn't breastfeed and he's still not 100% in agreement on AP or unschooling. When I left the decision about whether or not to circ up to him, he chose to circ Ethan. He would most definitely choose disposable diapers over cloth if I let him. He goes along with me on a lot of things because I will not compromise on those things.
I don't know of anything that my dh is passionate about. He really doesn't get worked up about anything. The thing is that I don't see how telling someone that I couldn't be at a function because I couldn't be away from our breastfed baby for so long would be a fight. It's not any business of anyone else. He wouldn't even need to respond to anyone who made any kind of snarky comment. I guess if he felt he had to, he could just say that is what I do. Whatever...
 

I can see how that would be upsetting. My DH sometimes makes comments about things I post on my FB wall but I always tell him that it's my wall and I can put on it whatever I want. I think he would probably choose disposable dipes but he loves the money-saving part of cloth diapers so maybe not. Maybe your DH feels like he would have to "defend" you if people started making negative comments and he doesn't feel like he's in a position to do that? IDK, just trying to understand where it would be coming from.

[akind1]

The situation that some of us are in (local VBAC mamas) - we are kind of far into our pregnancy to choose alternative care - and for others, it's early enough to *try* to find another provider, but alot depends on what you are willing to do - as it always does. I am not willing to travel nearly 2 hours in labor, to deliver at a really awesome facilty that does hospital waterbirths. With Norah, I went from active labor - just low moaning, I could be here for a while - to transition and pushing in less time than that (I probably spent 8 hours in active labor, 1 in transition, and the better part of another pushing) - I'd rather be at home than in the car. But for some, the drive is worth it, and a risk they are willing to take.

There really doesnt seem to be any better local options, which is horrible.

As for insurance not paying for cheaper options: HA! insurance rarely pays for cheaper options, they just lowball the expensive ones. Mine doesn't pay for homebirth and considers the out of hospital birth center out of network.  (which had I been able to choose either one for baby #1, financially speaking, I likely wouldn't be in this VBAC boat). I think so much of the high c-section rate is due to doctors and CNMs wanting to cover their butts rather than possibly deal with a more complicated vaginal delivery.

You can choose of course to fight the insurance battles, which I know some people have won, but it takes time, energy, and sometimes money (to pay expenses up front and then hope for reimbursement) that alot of people just don't have. People need to stand up and fight. And educate themselves. It will take time to do that. In the meantime, you have women needing care NOW. And for some, UC isn't an option, but a safe hospital birth would be (because of other medical issues that wouldn't preclude a vaginal birth, or necessitate a c-section necessarily, but need monitoring, like true diabetics and blood pressure issues.)

DH: We thankfully agree on a lot of the same things, if for different reasons. I think perhaps on some things (like CIO) he could have been persuaded to try if he'd been married to a different person. Same with me - I think I could have been persuaded to a selective/delayed schedule vs. not vaxing entirely had I had a different partner. But, generally, we are in agreement about things, and that's helpful.

As for Sean . . . does he see the USMC as a job? or as a lifestyle? that affects some of his rationale. To you, it's just a job, but maybe it's more to him than that. For a lot of Marines it's part of their identity, and not something they can easily walk away from. (is this the right way to look at it? is your way? doesn't matter  but it does affect the decision making process). I wonder, is he totally passive about AP/breastfeeding, all that that because he just IS passive, or because he loves you and wants you to have your way with that - obviously YOU are passionate about it, and maybe he just doesn't have strong feelings either way, and lets you go your way.  Like, I don't know, I don't have a strong opinion about computers and such. DH does, he's very particular about the technology we have. He'll get the best deal he can for what he wants, but he doesn't tend to skimp on the particulars. Even though I'd rather skimp myself and just get something that functions, I'm not passionate enough about it to argue. In the long run, he's probably right, and we really do need that much memory and processing power and whatever. So I just roll my eyes and say, whatever.

I like some of the advocacy shirts I've seen. I don't own any for the kids. I don't see the need to advertise . . the closest I have are little socks I got for Gabe that say "boob man"  Especially in regards to breastfeeding, you are going to probably see me do it at some point, I don't really need my kid to have a shirt that says so. Then again, I don't have many shirts that advertise anything (that I paid for anyway) I don't see anything WRONG with the shirts - but it's one of those things I don't bother with myself. (not trying to just side with Sean or anything, just trying to add perspective).

Does he say if there is anything specific he doesn't like or disagrees with in regards to your parenting or unschooling?  It would be easier to deal with specifcs vs. vague disinterest or uneasiness.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by akind1 

The situation that some of us are in (local VBAC mamas) - we are kind of far into our pregnancy to choose alternative care - and for others, it's early enough to *try* to find another provider, but alot depends on what you are willing to do - as it always does. I am not willing to travel nearly 2 hours in labor, to deliver at a really awesome facilty that does hospital waterbirths. With Norah, I went from active labor - just low moaning, I could be here for a while - to transition and pushing in less time than that (I probably spent 8 hours in active labor, 1 in transition, and the better part of another pushing) - I'd rather be at home than in the car. But for some, the drive is worth it, and a risk they are willing to take.

Yes, and you have thoughtfully made those choices. I'm not saying you made the wrong choices. You are the only one who can make the right choices for. However, that doesn't change the fact that you do still have other options. If you are not comfortable going with any of those other options, that's fine for you. You also stood your ground about having a VBAC twice, right? That is the main goal for you and you did "fight" to get by not just going along with the docs who wanted you to have another c-section from the beginning.

But if a woman says she wants a VBAC but the docs won't let her, she's not taking any responsibility. She's giving all the power and control and responsibility to someone else when she doesn't have to. There is no law that requires that she have a routine repeat c-section. There is no law that gives a doctor the authority to force a woman to have major surgery against her will, except in the case of a true emergency when there isn't time to get consent before someone will most certainly die.

As long as women do that, things will stay the same. Doctors aren't going to suddenly wake up one day and decide they are going to let women choose whatever they want just because. Someone has to demand that change. If women are not willing to demand that change, than I don't want to hear them complaining about how things are.

[MarineWife]

As for DH, it is possible that he doesn't know how to defend me. I brought that up. I told him some things he could say. If someone made some comment about me still breastfeeding, he would just refer them to the WHO and/or the AAP. Both organization recommend breastfeeding for up to 2 years now, I believe. I would see that as a possible chance to educate and inform people since they brought it up. I wouldn't think of it being about defending myself. I don't feel the need to defend myself from virtual strangers over things they think or say even when they are attacking me with their words. No one has the right to do that no matter who or where they are, even my boss at an official work function. It's called harassment and making a hostile work environment.

DH is a bit spineless when it comes to such situations. I think he was forced to bow to the authority of his father and others in charge regardless of whether or not they are doing a bad thing so much as a child that he doesn't know how to stop anyone from treating him badly. That really annoys me because I view that as weak. I can understand not doing or saying things that would cause a problem but not to the point of lying on a regular basis about the person you are supposed to be partnered in life with. That just makes me feel like he's not really in love me. He's in love with an idea of me as his wife. He's in love with an idea he has of marriage and family rather than what he actually has. So, he doesn't see and appreciate us for the people we are. He just likes to show people that he has this nice family, even if it isn't real.

As far as him telling me about any specifics, see above. He really does not talk about anything. You wouldn't believe what it took for me to finally get him to talk to me the other day. I had to basically keep screaming at him and not let him walk away until he had no choice but to say something. Otherwise, he would have just humphed and shrugged and walked away and not said anything. The above description also goes to him being passive. He is very, very passive. I am not. If I care about something, I'm going to stand up for it. Like I've said before, if it's something important to me, I'm not going to compromise, especially if the other person can't give me rational, well-researched, well thought out reasons for doing it differently.

I can make some guesses based on the way he acts. I think he is finally mostly on board with educational unschooling. It took 8 years but he's finally getting it. I think it started to click for him when Ethan started reading at the average age without being taught. (Thank goodness for that. If he had been a delayed reader, we would have been in trouble.) He does not like the radical part, which is giving your children the same kinds of choices in all aspects of their lives. He has a really hard time with that for a few reasons. He is very much an all or nothing person. Either he does things all his way or not at all. He doesn't know how to work with the children to do the best he can to get everyone what they want within reason. Since I won't let him constantly punish and deny them, he thinks he has to give in to their every whim.

I have talked to him about this many, many times over the years. I have tried to explain ways that he can say no in gentle and loving ways rather than always just "giving in" to the kids. I've given him books to read, which he doesn't. He doesn't seem to be capable of doing that. Again, I think that goes back to his childhood. He was not really given choices or allowed to express an opinion or any negative emotions. His father wouldn't have it. I have told him that if he can't even take the time to read a few books that would help improve his relationship with his kids and with me and is only going to go with negative knee-jerk reactions based on his childhood experiences, his way is not going to trump mine. He gets mad at me for always telling him what to do but he says he doesn't have time to read because of work. Again, putting work before family. If it was really important to him, he would find the time. If it's not that important to him, he doesn't get as much say in what happens as I do.

When we had Ethan he was very embarrassed about me breastfeeding in public, especially in front of his Marine Corps buddies. He has now gotten to the point where he knows I'm going to do it so he just pretends like it isn't happening. He's still embarrassed by it in front of his people, though. I don't think he minds the cloth diapers that much. But he doesn't like my knit covers. He doesn't think they are cool or fashionable or whatever. He's embarrassed that I dress his baby boys in such things. He will always go for a pocket or AI2 and regular pants if he dresses the baby to go out. I find that insulting because I put a lot of time and effort into making these beautiful pants and he's embarrassed to use them. Wouldn't you think he'd want to show off my skills? I would. Even people (mostly women but some men) who know absolutely nothing about cloth diapers or knitting have expressed a lot of appreciation for the things I have knit.

WRT the advocacy shirts, most people are not going to see me breastfeed. I don't go out much. When I do go out I'm usually with other people who breastfeed so there's no need for exposure or education there. I am a breastfeeding advocate, though, so it is important for me to advertise. I don't start conversations about breastfeeding out of the blue with virtual strangers so the advocacy shirts are the next best thing. It shows that it's something that I can be approached about if someone is interested. It's part of the mission of normalizing breastfeeding and educating people about it. An advocacy shirt plants a seed. I don't really see it advertising. I'm not walking around yelling at everyone, "Look at me! Look what I do!" I have a t-shirt on my breastfed baby/toddler that says, "Breastmilk," or "Breastfeeding".

More important to me, because some people will see me breastfeeding, are the home birth shirts I have. No one else is going to see me giving birth at home. Again, I don't go around telling anyone and everyone about it. I will tell people if the subject comes up but I don't go on and on about it. I'll just say something simple like, "My last two were born at home." I won't say anymore unless someone asks me about something or if they say something snarky. Even then, I make very benign, factual statements. I don't get into heated discussions with people about it. So, I do think it's important to "advertise" that in the way of my advocacy shirts more. Many, many people do not even know it's an option. Most others who know it's an option, still consider a hippie fringe thing, especially in the circles I am placed in a lot of the time. (Although, ultra-conservative Fox News seems to be supportive of home birth.)

The latest thing with that was what I had an outfit all picked out for Dylan to wear to the holiday party that DH's unit was having. I had out his "Born at Home" shirt and a pair of knit longies that matched perfectly with the shirt and a pair of his Robeez. (Those are another thing that embarrass dh because most of the people in his circle think soft-soled shoes are hippie moccasins. No one seems to care that they are better for proper foot development.) I hopped in the shower. When I got out, dh had Dylan dressed in a completely different outfit. I would have changed him but he had fallen asleep and I wasn't going to wake him up just for that. I was really hurt by that. Home birth is another issue that is very important to me. I think it's very important to get the message out there that it is a viable, safe and LEGAL option for mothers and families.

DH said that his official work functions are not a place to advertise such things. I understand that. I would not have dressed him in something like that for a Change of Command or some other actual official Marine Corps ceremony. However, this was a family fun function. It wasn't an official military/Marine Corps ceremony or function. It was not required or sanctioned by the military or the Marine Corps. It was supposed to be a fun time for the families to get together and just have fun. How is the shirt inappropriate for that? Maybe I'm clueless but I don't get it. I think that's just his excuse for being embarrassed by it and me.

Now this is really long again and I've been interrupted so many times that I can't remember what else I was gong to post. I'll probably be back with more. Thanks for helping me hash this out, as Carrie would say.

[MarineWife]

Oh, Kat, I think I forgot to say in response to the VBAC stuff that I might make the same choice that you did in your situation. I sort of did in Hawaii, choosing to have Ethan at the army hospital because I couldn't find an experienced midwife who was willing to attend my birth at home even though it is legal there. I did not submit to early induction or a repeat c-section but I did compromise by submitting to twice weekly NSTs after 39w, I think. To me, that wasn't a big deal. Agreeing to a c-section just because I had had a previous one or to an early induction just because the powers that be had decided I might have GD issues when there was nothing wrong with me or my baby were a big deal and I was not going to do either one.

And, I don't have any "Boob Man" breastfeeding advocacy stuff. I actually find that kind of offensive. I think it sexualizes breastfeeding, which is exactly what breastfeeding advocates are trying to get away from.

[akind1]

Originally Posted by MarineWife 

As for DH, it is possible that he doesn't know how to defend me. I brought that up. I told him some things he could say. If someone made some comment about me still breastfeeding, he would just refer them to the WHO and/or the AAP. Both organization recommend breastfeeding for up to 2 years now, I believe. I would see that as a possible chance to educate and inform people since they brought it up. I wouldn't think of it being about defending myself. I don't feel the need to defend myself from virtual strangers over things they think or say even when they are attacking me with their words. No one has the right to do that no matter who or where they are, even my boss at an official work function. It's called harassment and making a hostile work environment.
DH is a bit spineless when it comes to such situations. I think he was forced to bow to the authority of his father and others in charge regardless of whether or not they are doing a bad thing so much as a child that he doesn't know how to stop anyone from treating him badly. That really annoys me because I view that as weak. I can understand not doing or saying things that would cause a problem but not to the point of lying on a regular basis about the person you are supposed to be partnered in life with. That just makes me feel like he's not really in love me. He's in love with an idea of me as his wife. He's in love with an idea he has of marriage and family rather than what he actually has. So, he doesn't see and appreciate us for the people we are. He just likes to show people that he has this nice family, even if it isn't real.
As far as him telling me about any specifics, see above. He really does not talk about anything. You wouldn't believe what it took for me to finally get him to talk to me the other day. I had to basically keep screaming at him and not let him walk away until he had no choice but to say something. Otherwise, he would have just humphed and shrugged and walked away and not said anything. The above description also goes to him being passive. He is very, very passive. I am not. If I care about something, I'm going to stand up for it. Like I've said before, if it's something important to me, I'm not going to compromise, especially if the other person can't give me rational, well-researched, well thought out reasons for doing it differently.

I can make some guesses based on the way he acts. I think he is finally mostly on board with educational unschooling. It took 8 years but he's finally getting it. I think it started to click for him when Ethan started reading at the average age without being taught. (Thank goodness for that. If he had been a delayed reader, we would have been in trouble.) He does not like the radical part, which is giving your children the same kinds of choices in all aspects of their lives. He has a really hard time with that for a few reasons. He is very much an all or nothing person. Either he does things all his way or not at all. He doesn't know how to work with the children to do the best he can to get everyone what they want within reason. Since I won't let him constantly punish and deny them, he thinks he has to give in to their every whim.
I have talked to him about this many, many times over the years. I have tried to explain ways that he can say no in gentle and loving ways rather than always just "giving in" to the kids. I've given him books to read, which he doesn't. He doesn't seem to be capable of doing that. Again, I think that goes back to his childhood. He was not really given choices or allowed to express an opinion or any negative emotions. His father wouldn't have it. I have told him that if he can't even take the time to read a few books that would help improve his relationship with his kids and with me and is only going to go with negative knee-jerk reactions based on his childhood experiences, his way is not going to trump mine. He gets mad at me for always telling him what to do but he says he doesn't have time to read because of work. Again, putting work before family. If it was really important to him, he would find the time. If it's not that important to him, he doesn't get as much say in what happens as I do.
When we had Ethan he was very embarrassed about me breastfeeding in public, especially in front of his Marine Corps buddies. He has now gotten to the point where he knows I'm going to do it so he just pretends like it isn't happening. He's still embarrassed by it in front of his people, though. I don't think he minds the cloth diapers that much. But he doesn't like my knit covers. He doesn't think they are cool or fashionable or whatever. He's embarrassed that I dress his baby boys in such things. He will always go for a pocket or AI2 and regular pants if he dresses the baby to go out. I find that insulting because I put a lot of time and effort into making these beautiful pants and he's embarrassed to use them. Wouldn't you think he'd want to show off my skills? I would. Even people (mostly women but some men) who know absolutely nothing about cloth diapers or knitting have expressed a lot of appreciation for the things I have knit.
WRT the advocacy shirts, most people are not going to see me breastfeed. I don't go out much. When I do go out I'm usually with other people who breastfeed so there's no need for exposure or education there. I am a breastfeeding advocate, though, so it is important for me to advertise. I don't start conversations about breastfeeding out of the blue with virtual strangers so the advocacy shirts are the next best thing. It shows that it's something that I can be approached about if someone is interested. It's part of the mission of normalizing breastfeeding and educating people about it. An advocacy shirt plants a seed. I don't really see it advertising. I'm not walking around yelling at everyone, "Look at me! Look what I do!" I have a t-shirt on my breastfed baby/toddler that says, "Breastmilk," or "Breastfeeding".
More important to me, because some people will see me breastfeeding, are the home birth shirts I have. No one else is going to see me giving birth at home. Again, I don't go around telling anyone and everyone about it. I will tell people if the subject comes up but I don't go on and on about it. I'll just say something simple like, "My last two were born at home." I won't say anymore unless someone asks me about something or if they say something snarky. Even then, I make very benign, factual statements. I don't get into heated discussions with people about it. So, I do think it's important to "advertise" that in the way of my advocacy shirts more. Many, many people do not even know it's an option. Most others who know it's an option, still consider a hippie fringe thing, especially in the circles I am placed in a lot of the time. (Although, ultra-conservative Fox News seems to be supportive of home birth.)
The latest thing with that was what I had an outfit all picked out for Dylan to wear to the holiday party that DH's unit was having. I had out his "Born at Home" shirt and a pair of knit longies that matched perfectly with the shirt and a pair of his Robeez. (Those are another thing that embarrass dh because most of the people in his circle think soft-soled shoes are hippie moccasins. No one seems to care that they are better for proper foot development.) I hopped in the shower. When I got out, dh had Dylan dressed in a completely different outfit. I would have changed him but he had fallen asleep and I wasn't going to wake him up just for that. I was really hurt by that. Home birth is another issue that is very important to me. I think it's very important to get the message out there that it is a viable, safe and LEGAL option for mothers and families.
DH said that his official work functions are not a place to advertise such things. I understand that. I would not have dressed him in something like that for a Change of Command or some other actual official Marine Corps ceremony. However, this was a family fun function. It wasn't an official military/Marine Corps ceremony or function. It was not required or sanctioned by the military or the Marine Corps. It was supposed to be a fun time for the families to get together and just have fun. How is the shirt inappropriate for that? Maybe I'm clueless but I don't get it. I think that's just his excuse for being embarrassed by it and me.
Now this is really long again and I've been interrupted so many times that I can't remember what else I was gong to post. I'll probably be back with more. Thanks for helping me hash this out, as Carrie would say.

I can kind of get why a man might be sort of wary about his wife's breasts being exposed in public (not that he really should be. They aren't his breasts, and it's certainly not his problem if other people see them sexually, even when being used in a totally non sexual way)  - But I don't understand why he'd be bothered by the homebirth stuff. I guess you'd have to ask him, if even can give you a clear answer. Shoot, I'd be proud as  a peacock about a homebirth. Even among my less crunchy friends, most of them know someone, or know of someone who has given birth at home.

Maybe once I'm out of the trenches, so to speak, I'll be more into advocacy.trying hard just to plow through right now. I think it's fantastic that women really do have the choice to give birth at home. I also realize it's not the best choice for everybody. And kind of like breastfeeding, there are those that get all defensive and argumentative when you talk about it - maybe because they didn't know, or have only heard bad things, or wish they had chosen that path. I like to educate when and where I can, but I don't bring it up myself much. I really hate that so many boys in our area are circ'd. At the same time, once it's done its done. you can educate for the possible future boys - Then again, I'm like that with regards to religion too. I'm a Christian, but I don't wear shirts or carry my bible around. I try to just live what I believe, and go from there. But I grew up in a really pushy evangelical sort of church, and that's turned me off of being very pushy myself for that stuff.

I don't get why Sean would have changed Dylan's outfit. I don't know many people that use woolies and wear them out of the house. (maybe one?) As much as you pay for the things, I'd be getting as much use out of them as possible.

It's hard. The man needs to find his words and speak up!

I tend to write things out more than have conversations. I feel more rational that way, LOL.

[MarineWife]

Serial posting. Sorry. I've posted a lot. I won't be offended if you guys don't read it all.

The Marine Corps as a lifestyle thing, yes, I do think that dh sees it as a lifestyle. He absolutely sees himself as a Marine rather than just being in the Marine Corps. That's great for him. I'm glad that he has found something that he enjoys and that gives him so much fulfillment. I told him that. I am supporting him in that endeavor because I never have and I never will tell him to get out or I'm leaving. I would never take that away from him. But, if he says that his family is the most important thing to him, even more important than the Marine Corps. and being a Marine, and that lifestyle does not mesh with his family that he says he loves, then he needs to find a way to keep that lifestyle out of his family business. He choosing to keep both so he needs to find a way to make them both work. Otherwise, he does need to choose one or the other.

I don't think it's fair for him to suddenly tell me that he feels like I don't support him in his career. I am still here, aren't I? I told him and the recruiter before he even joined that I wasn't going to be much help to him in his career. The recruiter said to us that, if he was going to be an Officer, I was going to be very important to his advancement. I replied that he wouldn't be going very far, then, because I doubted I could be a good military spouse. I grew up being, not just not pro-military, but outright anti-military. My entire family was/is like that. My uncle refused to go to Vietnam as a conscientious objector. It shouldn't be a surprise to him that I'm not all gung ho about the Ball or any other Marine Corps stuff. I also don't see why he can't understand that I do less now because we have more kids. It was easier to go to more functions when we only had two kids and one was old enough to babysit and home most of the time. Plus, we lived in Hawaii so we could only go so far away before falling into the ocean.

I do go to things when I can. I didn't want to go to that holiday party for a couple of reasons. First, they called it a "holiday" party but it was really a Christmas party. I'm not Christian. I don't really celebrate Christmas the way that most do. I don't want my children bombarded with all of that stuff. I didn't want to go but DH had to go since he is sort of the figurehead of it all. He had to give some sort of welcome speech to everyone. So, I went and stood by his side and smiled and made small talk with people that I couldn't care less about and participated in the various activities, all while trying to keep track of my 3 boys because dh was working and couldn't really pay much attention to us. I have told him that I will go to all the family friendly functions that I can and will go to other things as he wants me to if we can find suitable childcare. But I don't support him.

I was a hippiefied, anti-war, anti-military, card carrying democratic atheist when we met and married. He was not a Marine. He was an accountant and part-time personal trainer. I was very open and honest and up front about who I am and the things I believe in and find important. He changed everything on me. I don't think he then has the right to tell me that I have to fit in with his new lifestyle (even though I do what I can).

[Baby_Cakes]

Only have a minute.

It seems like he's getting tired of your "agenda" so to speak, and doesn't really seem to support or otherwise endorse what you are passionate about.  That can truly be hurtful and feel like he doesn't love you for who you are.

OTOH, this is who you are b/c this is your life right now.  You are very entrenched in homebirth and bf'ing, and unschooling b/c this is your life, and of course you want to talk about it and educate others and explain your POV.  And of course you will always be attached to these things in some sense.  

What I like to do in these moments when I feel looked down on by DH or misunderstood about something, or unsupported is realize how short this season is.  This is so stressful right now b/c my kids are young and I CARE about these things, and this is who I am.  But in 10, 15 years, when my nursling is a teen, am I going to think I was silly for *for example* ending my marriage b/c my DH didn't want a homebirth shirt on our baby?  Or b/c he didn't care to talk about extended bf'ing or unschooling?  What is going to be important then and on the top of your priority list is going to be totally different when you no longer have a todder or baby.

I try to think of the big picture.  I want this man to be in my life and be my partner when I'm past this stage in my life.

Sometimes it helps me to think about the vows I made and the promise I made to myself and to him in front of family and friends (and for those married religiously, in front of god) and remember love and marriage is about more than our current set of circumstances.

We are going to grow and fall in and out of love with our partners b/c we all grow at different paces.  We can't possibly always be on the same page, book, or even shelf.  But to honor that promise we have to look past those things and love regardless, and accept and even try to understand.  And ask the same of them.  B/c if they don't like who we are at any given time, that is fine, but a commitment made to another person should be honored.  That's marriage.

Unless there is a deal breaker like abuse or something, of course.  We all have our deal breakers.

[Baby_Cakes]

Originally Posted by MarineWife 

I was a hippiefied, anti-war, anti-military, card carrying democratic atheist when we met and married. He was not a Marine. He was an accountant and part-time personal trainer. I was very open and honest and up front about who I am and the things I believe in and find important. He changed everything on me. I don't think he then has the right to tell me that I have to fit in with his new lifestyle (even though I do what I can).

This is a huge eye opener to me.  I didn't realize how much he changed on you.  Do you consider this a deal breaker?

But then look even at your screen name.  You chose that b/c you do support him and are on some level proud.  You aren't a typical military wife but you are a supportive wife and an honest and thoughtful person, nonetheless.  Don't devalue that just b/c you aren't able to be some (impossible) ideal.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by Baby_Cakes 

Only have a minute.

It seems like he's getting tired of your "agenda" so to speak, and doesn't really seem to support or otherwise endorse what you are passionate about.  That can truly be hurtful and feel like he doesn't love you for who you are.
OTOH, this is who you are b/c this is your life right now.  You are very entrenched in homebirth and bf'ing, and unschooling b/c this is your life, and of course you want to talk about it and educate others and explain your POV.  And of course you will always be attached to these things in some sense.  
What I like to do in these moments when I feel looked down on by DH or misunderstood about something, or unsupported is realize how short this season is.  This is so stressful right now b/c my kids are young and I CARE about these things, and this is who I am.  But in 10, 15 years, when my nursling is a teen, am I going to think I was silly for *for example* ending my marriage b/c my DH didn't want a homebirth shirt on our baby?  Or b/c he didn't care to talk about extended bf'ing or unschooling?  What is going to be important then and on the top of your priority list is going to be totally different when you no longer have a todder or baby.

Yes, I agree with all of this. It's not really about those little things. Those are just examples of the little things that he does that make me feel like I'm not really wanted here. He's grumpy and angry almost all the time when he's home. I don't want to live the rest of my life with a grumpy, angry person. I don't want to be somewhere I'm not wanted. If he wants me here, then he needs to act like it. If he doesn't want me here, then he needs to be honest about it so we can do something about it. KWIM?

If he's not really miserable and he doesn't want to be miserable, why does he act miserable all the time? I mean, he is angry! This all started because he was getting Dylan ready for bed and got out a fleece sleeper. I had already put a diaper and wool cover on him so he didn't need the fleece, which I reserve for use as a diaper cover when needed. So, I told him to use a regular cotton sleep instead of a fleece one. He got so angry with me for "telling him what to do." He got all huffy and started sort of tossing things around and being rough with Dylan.

I asked him what his problem was but he wouldn't tell me. Finally, after a lot of pushing from me, he said that I always insist that he do things my way. Well, um, no, not exactly. I have a reason why I do it that way that makes sense, I think. If we use the fleece sleepers whenever, we may end up without a suitable cover and then what?

I explained to him why I do it that way. It wasn't like I was saying that I wanted him to use the blue sleeper instead of the green one because it was Tuesday or because I like it better. It wasn't a personal preference thing. It was for a specific, practical reason. I asked him if that didn't make sense. I asked him if he had a reason for not doing it that way or another (better?) way of doing it. He had nothing. So, what is wrong with me telling him that because that's my system for making sure we have adequate night time diaper protection? I'm the one who does all the laundry. I'm the one who keeps track of all the diapers and covers and clothes. He doesn't even know where the stuff is even though I keep everything in the same places. If he wants to take over the job of organizing the diaper system, then he can tell me how to do it. Otherwise, follow the system I've set up unless you have a well-thought out reason to do it differently. KWIM?

Originally Posted by Baby_Cakes 

This is a huge eye opener to me.  I didn't realize how much he changed on you.  Do you consider this a deal breaker?
But then look even at your screen name.  You chose that b/c you do support him and are on some level proud.  You aren't a typical military wife but you are a supportive wife and an honest and thoughtful person, nonetheless.  Don't devalue that just b/c you aren't able to be some (impossible) ideal.

I don't consider it a deal breaker as long as he doesn't let it affect everything else in our lives. The thing is that he is letting it affect everything else. I am really feeling like he does not like me as a person. He doesn't value or appreciate anything I do. He thinks I do basically nothing all day because the house isn't spotless when he comes home. That's how he measures whether or not I've been productive. I do kind of consider possibly living the rest of my life with someone who doesn't want me around and is always angry at me a deal breaker. I don't want to live that way, angry and miserable. I want peace and love and happiness.

He uses the excuse that he's worried about his career and how people at work will think of him and treat him. That's not really a valid argument, though. He has already been selected for Major. He WILL be promoted. It's just a matter of time. That cannot be taken away unless he does something extremely grevious like get arrested for DUI or illegal drug possession or domestic violence or child molestation or something like that. A negative remark about his wife in a fit rep cannot cause him to lose his promotion at this point. And, since he has known from the time he joined that he may never make it to Lt. Colonel just because he may not have enough time in before retirement, that kind of negates his argument about a me affecting any future promotion. He always knew he'd absolutely not have time to make it past Lt. Colonel. That would be the end for him, either way.

So, really, nothing I could do or not do at this point would affect his career much. However, his grumpiness and anger affects everyone in our home in a negative way.

[AnnieA]

OK, I'm going to play armchair marriage therapist but I'm not going to pull punches so feel free to tell me to buzz off! I feel like there are a coupleof fundamental things going on. First is two opposite personalities. Your confrontational style is direct whereas his is indirect aka passive aggressive. Second, you are both asking each other to fight battles that you don't see as yours to fight. You are asking him to fight battles regarding AP, home birth, non-circing, unschooling, etc. He's asking you to fight the battle for ongoing promotion. I think you both need a paradigm shift that just because your partner can't or won't fight your battle is not a reflection of their love for you and your family. Third, your DH needs to find his voice in your family dynamic. He abdicates deciscions to you but then gets pissed when you "boss" him around. My DH does this too. It's a work in progress. What I have to do though is bite my tongue a lot when DH makes choices about stuff with the kids. Yeah, it creates more work for me in the shortterm. But it gives him a feeling of ownership as their father. Is it really worth the fight to tell him to put different pjs on D? For me personally, I only make a big deal out of making sure Ava's nighttime dipe is doubled so she doesn't wake in the middle of the covered in pee. Otherwise, I let it go.

The USMC thing is tough because it very much is a lifestyle and mindset. There's a reason for the saying "Once a Marine, always a Marine." In order for that military model to work, for people to blindly put themselves in danger and not ask questions, a certain level of brainwashing has to occur for it to work. That's hard to turn off IMO. And as a high ranking officer, he does have certain responsibilities. Is it possible that he thinks dressing Dylan in handknit pants gives the impression you guys are hurting for money? Even though we all know the actual cost of those pants? I do think you have some responsibility there though as well. Did you ask him why he chose a different outfit for the holiday party? Is it possible he didn't see the clothes you laid out? Would it have hurt less if he had said to you that he didn't think that outfit was appropriate for the venue and he wanted to choose something else?

I think a lot of all of our marriage struggles boil down to intent. Do we think our partners are making choices to deliberately hurt us? Or are they choosing to do or not do something to avoid perceived pain? I deal with someone on a regular basis that does occasionally make choices to specifically hurt my DH and I. Taking the kids on a trip 500 miles away during the ten days surrounding Ava's due date so they wouldn't be here to meet her when she was born is a good example. But for the most part, I don't think our partners are acting with malicious intent.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by AnnieA 

OK, I'm going to play armchair marriage therapist but I'm not going to pull punches so feel free to tell me to buzz off! I feel like there are a coupleof fundamental things going on. First is two opposite personalities. Your confrontational style is direct whereas his is indirect aka passive aggressive. Second, you are both asking each other to fight battles that you don't see as yours to fight. You are asking him to fight battles regarding AP, home birth, non-circing, unschooling, etc. He's asking you to fight the battle for ongoing promotion. I think you both need a paradigm shift that just because your partner can't or won't fight your battle is not a reflection of their love for you and your family. Third, your DH needs to find his voice in your family dynamic. He abdicates deciscions to you but then gets pissed when you "boss" him around. My DH does this too. It's a work in progress. What I have to do though is bite my tongue a lot when DH makes choices about stuff with the kids. Yeah, it creates more work for me in the shortterm. But it gives him a feeling of ownership as their father. Is it really worth the fight to tell him to put different pjs on D? For me personally, I only make a big deal out of making sure Ava's nighttime dipe is doubled so she doesn't wake in the middle of the covered in pee. Otherwise, I let it go.
The USMC thing is tough because it very much is a lifestyle and mindset. There's a reason for the saying "Once a Marine, always a Marine." In order for that military model to work, for people to blindly put themselves in danger and not ask questions, a certain level of brainwashing has to occur for it to work. That's hard to turn off IMO. And as a high ranking officer, he does have certain responsibilities. Is it possible that he thinks dressing Dylan in handknit pants gives the impression you guys are hurting for money? Even though we all know the actual cost of those pants? I do think you have some responsibility there though as well. Did you ask him why he chose a different outfit for the holiday party? Is it possible he didn't see the clothes you laid out? Would it have hurt less if he had said to you that he didn't think that outfit was appropriate for the venue and he wanted to choose something else?
I think a lot of all of our marriage struggles boil down to intent. Do we think our partners are making choices to deliberately hurt us? Or are they choosing to do or not do something to avoid perceived pain? I deal with someone on a regular basis that does occasionally make choices to specifically hurt my DH and I. Taking the kids on a trip 500 miles away during the ten days surrounding Ava's due date so they wouldn't be here to meet her when she was born is a good example. But for the most part, I don't think our partners are acting with malicious intent.

These are all excellent points. I totally agree about the brainwashing stuff. When we first got married we had a conversation about what we would do if one of us cheated on the other. I said I'd kick him to the curb so fast he wouldn't know what hit him. He said it would depend. Then he came back from Officer Candidate School (the equivalent of enlisted boot camp) and the subject came up again. His response then was, "Just remember, I'm a trained killer now." He was joking. He wasn't trying to threaten that he would actually kill anyone but it definitely did change his mindset about certain things.

I don't think that dh should fight any fight for me on anything I do. I don't understand why he feels the need to lie about me as if he's ashamed. That hurts me. I have told him all of this. All he says is that he just doesn't want to deal with it. I really don't see why it would ever be a fight for him. I, honestly, don't understand why anything that I do in my own personal life (as long as it isn't illegal) would matter at all to anyone he worked with or why it would have any real bearing on his career.

I read about other people's husbands doing and saying things about their wives breastfeeding and what not with pride. Not all Marines are brainwashed to the extent that dh seems to have been. I think it's more of a personality thing with him being so concerned about what others think, not challenging authority, and not speaking up about things.

Yes, he knew that I had picked out that outfit. I handed it right to him and asked him to put it on Dylan while I was in the shower. That's when he said, "Do you always have to advertise?" in a very nasty tone. And, yes, I did ask him why he didn't dress Dylan in it. He said that official Marine Corps functions are not an appropriate place for me to make a political statement. I agree but that wasn't an official Marine Corps. function. It was a family fun thing. What if it had been a beach BBQ? I would have dressed Dylan in a cloth swim diaper and almost certainly a t-shirt that said something about breastfeeding or co-sleeping or home birth. That's pretty much all I have.

As far as the knit pants, he just thinks they are goofy. They aren't like "regular" clothes. Saying and doing things like that make me feel like he doesn't appreciate what I consider to be a special skill that I have that I take pride in. I am proud that I breastfed all of my children and breastfeed as long as I do. I am proud that I have had 3 VBACs and 2 home births. I want other women to know that they can do the same thing if they want. Why would I hide those things from anyone? Why does dh feel like he has to lie about those things? They are a big part of who I am so that means he is basically lying about me.

I don't think that he does things to hurt me. I do think he doesn't do things to try to make a point.

An example, I was peeling potatoes. I have always had a garbage disposal and have always put potato peels in the garbage disposal. I've never had trouble with them clogging the disposal. DH saw me putting the peels in the disposal and told me not to because it would clog up the sink. I kept doing it because I don't like to put food waste in the trash and I didn't really think it would be a problem. The next morning the sink was clogged. What did dh do? He sat on the couch for at least 4 hours doing nothing but waiting for me to wake up so he could try to make me help him fix it just so he could shove my face in it. He left the sink nasty and crap all over the counters. He didn't really need my help. He wanted me to move all the stuff out from under the sink so he could get to the pipes. He could have easily done that himself, especially while all the kids were still asleep so no one would have to worry about them getting in the way or getting into dangerous things. He didn't, though, because he wanted to teach me a lesson. The only lesson he taught me is that he's very petty. If he wanted to make sure I understood that the potato peels clogged the sink, he could have just shown me the peels that he pulled out of the pipes.

That's just such a petty thing to do. Yes, I didn't listen to him when he said it would clog but I had never had that problem. No, I did not do it to purposely clog the pipes so he would have to clean them out. That's what he accused me of. They say you expect from others what you do yourself so maybe that is something he would have done so he assumed I did the same.

[MarineWife]

I know all of this sound very petty. It is petty and that's the problem. We stuck in this pettiness. I feel like I can't say anything to my dh without him getting angry but I don't know what else to do. I'm tired of feeling like he gives me no thought and does things that make my daily life more difficult without any care, especially when they are things that I've asked him to do or not do in the past. He gets mad at me for telling where something goes and how to use it but he doesn't make any effort to figure it out himself. What can I do? Just let it all go and be constantly running around fixing the things he has messed up?

[MarineWife]

I forgot to say that I read a little on insurance companies not covering things when people leave the hospital AMA. From what I understand, the insurance companies can refuse to pay for medical treatment needed as a result of leaving AMA. However, they can't refuse to pay for the initial hospital services provided before leaving AMA.

Also, I did apologize for the potato peel thing after the fact. Maybe I should have listened to him initially but I certainly didn't purposely try to clog the sink. KWIM?

[Baby_Cakes]

I think too you are both too proud to just cave and say to one another, "Hey.  Enough.  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry I'm stuck on dumb things and I'm sorry it hurts you when I do XYZ. I'll try harder.  Can you promise the same?"

I say this b/c we are coming thru something so similar.  And it's HARD to just surrender and be vulnerable, and WORK on a marriage.  

You honestly seem sad b/c right now he doesn't seem to like who you are, let alone love you for who you are.  And it doesn't sound like right now you like him for who he is, either.  And you aren't working as a team.  He seems always trying to prove a point, to make you see how you've messed up (in his mind), and you seem to be indifferent to what concerns him.  Both of you can try to solve these issues.

It's hard especially when you don't like the person.  I thought the same things.  Do I even WANT to be around him in 10, 15 years?  I can't stand him right now.  Why bother?

But it can change if you both work.  I'm seeing it happen in front of me.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by Baby_Cakes 

I think too you are both too proud to just cave and say to one another, "Hey.  Enough.  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry I'm stuck on dumb things and I'm sorry it hurts you when I do XYZ. I'll try harder.  Can you promise the same?"

This is pretty much what I said to him the other night. We either need to change what we are doing or get out. We can't continue to live like this. Get over all these silly things, stop holding grudges, and get back to what matters. He kind of grunted and shrugged and agreed but then didn't talk anymore about how we could do that.
 

Originally Posted by Baby_Cakes 

You honestly seem sad b/c right now he doesn't seem to like who you are, let alone love you for who you are.  And it doesn't sound like right now you like him for who he is, either.  And you aren't working as a team.  He seems always trying to prove a point, to make you see how you've messed up (in his mind), and you seem to be indifferent to what concerns him.  Both of you can try to solve these issues.

It's hard especially when you don't like the person.  I thought the same things.  Do I even WANT to be around him in 10, 15 years?  I can't stand him right now.  Why bother?
But it can change if you both work.  I'm seeing it happen in front of me.

Yes, I am sad. I'm worn out. I'm tired of trying to make things better and feeling like I'm not getting any reciprocation. I do think about how long I have until I could leave the kids home by themselves if I had to leave and go back to work. I think maybe 7 or 8 more years. Then Ethan will be 16, Kellen will 12 and Dylan will be 8. Depending on how they are, it could work and we could still homeschool. That's crazy, isn't it?

[MarineWife]

So, let's assume Sean's behavior isn't going to change. What can I do to make things better for me? A few years ago it was easy for me to let things go and go on about my business. I can't seem to do that anymore. Nothing I do seems to help. If anything, it makes things worse. I've even tried just pretending in my head that we are nothing more than roommates and how he feels about me doesn't matter. It does matter, though, so that didn't last long. I can't pretend like his grumpiness doesn't bother me anymore and I can't sit back and let him act mean toward the kids. Like I said before, I want peace and happiness and love in my home. I want my kids to feel safe and loved and accepted. It's obvious that they don't feel that way with their dad because he's annoyed most of the time and rarely has anything nice or positive to say to anyone.

Oh, I meant to respond to the comment about my screen name. I chose that name not because I am proud of being a Marine wife. I chose that name because I was afraid that most of the people on this site would be anti-military and I wanted to give everyone a heads up of where I was coming from before things got nasty.