December Chit Chat - Page 9 « Back to Group Discussions

[dashley111]

I hate it when I type up a big long response on my iphone, the my big fat fingers hit tiny random little numbers and delete everything...

Anyways, the short version was- its hardly reasonable to compare the US and Japan.  There are huge cultural differences, and a huge population difference.  We could say "XYZ only happens 30 times  year in Japan but happens ____ times in the US!" and its not the same, and those two figures have almost nothing to do with each other because our population is so vastly different and our country is so much bigger.  There are a ton of laws the Japanese abide by that we would consider to be huge human/civil rights issues in the US. 

I don't oppose stricter gun laws, though.  I do oppose taking away the right to bare arms.  My husband has a concealed carry license, and I love knowing that he is always carrying his gun when we go out.  I don't mind knowing that that same right is given to millions of other Americans.  I do mind that there is no mental health inquiry when guns and permits are issued.

[birdhappy85]

I disagree that population difference has anything to do with the discussion, especially since Japan's is 1/3 of America's (that doesn't seem enough of a difference to explain anything). I can see use for personal protection w/ a handgun or hunting rifles, but the fact of the matter is -- we can't control how people lock up their guns, nor can we control the people who just decide to shoot up a school one day. We could control gun ownership. That's all.

[TalkToMeNow]

Then forget Japan. Look at Europe. Can't argue a huge population difference there! The numbers are there. England specifically. Even when you adjust for the population difference, the statistics are huge.

However, I must say that if you look up bleeding heart liberal in the dictionary, my picture is there. So I am 100% anti gun, hands down, period. So you have to take everything I say with that in mind!! ;p

[seraf]

Amanda, that's why I adore you. Even tho I'm pro hunting for food, I am very anti violence.

The thing is, most mass shootings don't happen in schools. And I don't think schizophrenia is totally preventable with gentle parenting. Bipolar disorder certainly isn't. I don't know how we can step up identification and treatment of mental illness.

[Jaimee]

Originally Posted by TalkToMeNow 

However, I must say that if you look up bleeding heart liberal in the dictionary, my picture is there. So I am 100% anti gun, hands down, period. So you have to take everything I say with that in mind!! ;p

    I'm in there, too.  I find the second amendment antiquated.  But I'd be very happy to compromise with stricter gun laws. 

[Jaimee]

Originally Posted by Autumnshades 

Of cause you are not going to keep a loaded gun in a classroom, that would be stupid. But there should be some way teachers can defend themselves.  Ask yourself why schools are targeted?  Because no one is going to be able defend themselves there.  That is the sad reality of it.  

I don't think that's true.  Coffee house in Seattle, theatre in Colorado, temple in Wisconsin.  This one happened to be a school b/c his mother worked there. 

This is relevant to the idea that more guns would help defend against guns...  The entire article is good, too.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/opinion/collins-looking-for-america.html?_r=0&adxnnl=1&ref=opinion&adxnnlx=1355583653-4Go85+pmZtngupnhss7owg

 

"Recently the Michigan House of Representatives passed and sent to the governor a bill that, among other things, makes it easy for people to carry concealed weapons in schools.  After the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School Friday, a spokesman for House Speaker Jase Bolger said that it might have meant “the difference between life and death for many innocent bystanders.” This is a popular theory of civic self-defense that discounts endless evidence that in a sudden crisis, civilians with guns either fail to respond or respond by firing at the wrong target."

And this is relevant to the discussion about Japan, gun control, and mental illness:

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/07/a-land-without-guns-how-japan-has-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/260189/

 

To get a gun in Japan, first, you have to attend an all-day class and pass a written test, which are held only once per month. You also must take and pass a shooting range class. Then, head over to a hospital for a mental test and drug test (Japan is unusual in that potential gun owners must affirmatively prove their mental fitness), which you'll file with the police. Finally, pass a rigorous background check for any criminal record or association with criminal or extremist groups, and you will be the proud new owner of your shotgun or air rifle. Just don't forget to provide police with documentation on the specific location of the gun in your home, as well as the ammo, both of which must be locked and stored separately. And remember to have the police inspect the gun once per year and to re-take the class and exam every three years.

[Mal85]

I had hard time keeping myself together for the girls last night. I don't want to worry DD1. She's way too young to understand anything that happened and I don't want her asking why Mama is upset. I feel so very fortunate that they are both young enough that I don't have to have this discussion with them yet. I know there will be other tragedies when they are older and we will have to have that talk, but for now they can keep living in their own bliss ignorant of all the evils in the world. I just keep thinking of all those parents who have Christmas trees, presents, etc ready at home for their children.

I found out about it when I checked the news while my preschoolers were napping. With the holiday coming, their focus has been out the window and they have just been bouncing off the walls. We've had some difficult days when my patience is just worn. I read the news and just wanted to scoop them all up and hug them and tell them I love them all. As a parent this is heart breaking, as a teacher it's downright terrifying. I had an hour in my classroom by myself with my sleeping kiddos and I just couldn't stop playing in my head what that would be like. What would I do? Where would I take the kids? How would I keep them safe? How would I ever forget their terrified cries? It's just too much...

On a lighter note... getting Greta's pics taken today. Took DD1 to see Santa last night as a surprise and she was thrilled. Of course, she told him she wanted something she has never mentioned to anyone else before. All her gifts are bought and wrapped, yet I feel like I need to go get this book she asked for. Will she not believe in Santa anymore if I don't get the book? She asked for a Pete the Cat book about his buttons. She's getting a Pete the Cat Christmas book already. Close enough, right? Greta has been extra fussy lately. She fell the other night with a pacifier in her mouth. She bit through it and her mouth just would not stop bleeding. Her teeth look okay, that was what I was worried about. She tore up her gums pretty badly though. I thought for sure she'd get rid of the pacifier with her mouth hurting so badly, but no she went right back to it. She also has two molars cutting through. Poor kid...

[dashley111]

America has a ton of problems other countries don't have.  We have a food problem, a violence problem (which, lots of other countries have violence problems), a parenting problem, a bullying problem...changing our constitutional rights wont help any of these.  Europe just this year had several mass bombings.  Guns weren't needed.  People here are losing their common sense and they have no compassion.  I hold tight to my stance that even if we destroyed ALL the guns, it would NOT fix our problem and it would not change our instances of violence other than making them non-gun related and giving them another means.  Our country is broken.  We are in a cycle of raising broken children. 

Mal- we had a similar injury and I had the same hope about the pacifier.  Even nursing was bothering her, but she didnt mind the pacifier at all!

[Autumnshades]

Eli is struggling with his teeth too (still only has 4).  They are right there under the surface, huge mountains under his gums - canine and molars.  I feel so badly for him.  I bought him a new toothbrush yesterday, one of those banana ones and he was chewing on that thing all afternoon.  On the downside, all the teething drool has made his little chin/top of his lips sooo red and owie looking ... poor guy.  I am sure the wind we have isn't helping the case so I try to keep it dry and put some soothing balm on it too to help it heal.

[seraf]

Sonja, we have has those awful looking molar/canine mountains for a couple of months. Every day I am surprised they haven't cut through.

[Becky Wheeler]

Originally Posted by seraf 

Amanda, that's why I adore you. Even tho I'm pro hunting for food, I am very anti violence.
The thing is, most mass shootings don't happen in schools. And I don't think schizophrenia is totally preventable with gentle parenting. Bipolar disorder certainly isn't. I don't know how we can step up identification and treatment of mental illness.

We as parents take responsibility for our minors' behavior. When a mother is in denial of something going on with her child and does not seek out help or when she does not listen to the child, she is setting that child up for serious failure. I'd hate to think what I'd feel if my mother didn't listen to me or what was going on when it was going on. She had guns in the house, as well. I'm sure I might've shot her husband at the time. Communication, understanding, treatment and a gentle hand will take a child a long way.

[seraf]

Originally Posted by Becky Wheeler 

We as parents take responsibility for our minors' behavior. When a mother is in denial of something going on with her child and does not seek out help or when she does not listen to the child, she is setting that child up for serious failure. I'd hate to think what I'd feel if my mother didn't listen to me or what was going on when it was going on. She had guns in the house, as well. I'm sure I might've shot her husband at the time. Communication, understanding, treatment and a gentle hand will take a child a long way.

I think we can do certain things for our children. I don't know about this guy's home life. Just like good parents can raise a child who grows up to have cancer or autism, they can raise a child whose brain chemistry messes up in adulthood.

I don't know every thought my oldest has. If he suffered paranoia, I would probably know fewer of his thoughts, eh? We don't know his motive, but obviously his mother couldn't stop it.

[dashley111]

There was an article I saw with an interview with his aunt, where she clearly stated that he had emotional problems and that the mom had severed contact with him because he "acted crazy". I would like to think that if one if my kids needed psychiatric help and it was obvious, that I would help hem instead of shun them. I can see how it would be easy to incorrectly handle the situation...I'm no stranger to crazy. The difference lies in the ability to sometimes know that calling the authorities on someone you love is not always a bad thing, even if they feel otherwise.

I guess if you've never been there, it would be hard to know what to do. Even awesome parents can have mentally ill children. Schizophrenia is genetic.

[seraf]

Here's an interesting and heartbreaking story from a mother trying to access help for her mentally ill son. It certainly doesn't sound like she's in denial.

[Jaimee]

Originally Posted by seraf 

Here's an interesting and heartbreaking story from a mother trying to access help for her mentally ill son. It certainly doesn't sound like she's in denial.

I agree, it doesn't.  I used to work in rehab centers for adolescent girls dealing with drug addiction, eating disorders, suicide attempts, self harm, etc. and none of those parents were in denial either and were seeking whatever help they could get for their kids.  Sometimes it helped, sometimes it didn't.  I agree that we do need to have a meaningful nation discussion about mental health and changes need to be made.  I agree that this needs to be done NOW.  But I just don't see a reality where changes in mental health are made quickly, quickly enough to stop the next mass killing.  But if we regulate and restrict guns, which can be done fairly quickly, we just might be able to.  This blog post is all over facebook and along with it are numerous articles about gun statistics here and in other countries and gun laws here and in other countries.  I just feel like the evidence is overwhelmingly in support of stricter laws, that they really can make a difference.  And I want to see that difference made NOW.  I want everyone to contact their representatives and senators and tell them that we want new laws NOW.  I voted for Obama, hoping desperately that he would be able to make real changes in his second term.  Now is the time to demand that he does.

[dashley111]

Originally Posted by seraf 

Here's an interesting and heartbreaking story from a mother trying to access help for her mentally ill son. It certainly doesn't sound like she's in denial.

I read this on Facebook this morning.  I cried.  Its so so sad.  I spent the good part of 2 years trying to get my mom involuntarily committed, and it is HARD to get help for the mentally ill when they don't want it.  For me, it was impossible.  Luckily the only damage my mother did was to herself- but there were a few instances where I was shocked that nothing was done. Once, I had to call the police on her while she was walking rural roads in flip flops and a bath robe in the middle of the worst snow/wind storm WA has had in my lifetime.  They could not do a thing.  Not even pick her up, even though she was very obviously mentally ill.  We have no mental health care system in America.  In my experience, there are OK resources for suicidal teenagers, but that is about it.  My sister was involuntarily committed twice before 18 for suicide attempts, and there was pretty easy access to that- but her stays were short.  What she learned was very short term.  And all the expenses were paid out of pocket because insurance, even though my father holds a government position, did not cover any of the costs.

Just to air it out, I have a bipolar mother and a schizophrenic adopted sister.  Its probably why I don't see gun laws as the issue or a fix...I know exactly what a crazy person is capable of and willing to do, and no law or restriction is going to stop them mostly because they just don't care about what is legal.  Its not like the majority of schizophrenics and psychotics are hanging out with the worlds finest law abiding citizens who will rid of their guns upon stricter gun laws. 

So, yeah...a lot of families don't know what to do.  A lot of families pretend its not happening, or that its not mental illness.  But even families that acknowledge it basically have the same amount of access to resources as families who deny it. 

I consider our health system to be one of Americas greatest failures.  Its probably why I am one of the few upper-middle class well-insured people in my area who support Obama's healthcare proposal, even with its flaws.

[Jaimee]

Originally Posted by dashley111 

Just to air it out, I have a bipolar mother and a schizophrenic adopted sister.  Its probably why I don't see gun laws as the issue or a fix...I know exactly what a crazy person is capable of and willing to do, and no law or restriction is going to stop them mostly because they just don't care about what is legal.  Its not like the majority of schizophrenics and psychotics are hanging out with the worlds finest law abiding citizens who will rid of their guns upon stricter gun laws. 

I totally hear what you're saying and I know that you're right.  This needs fixing.  But don't you think that severely restricting who can own a gun and what kind of gun would help?  It sounds to me that stricter laws would have prevented this man's mother from owning guns.  If he had not had such easy access to guns would this have happened?  It's not about mentally ill people caring about what's legal, it's about access.  If they have to work really hard to get a gun, it becomes less likely.  And if those guns aren't able to keep firing so many rounds of bullets, it's slower, and then there is more time to stop the assailant and less people are so easily killed at once.   Our laws are possibly the most lax of all the modern nations and our gun-related death rate is one of the highest.  I just see it as a start.

[seraf]

I honestly don't think there is a quick or easy answer.  Stricter gun laws will turn current gun owners into gun, ammo and giant clip hoarders.  I know plenty of fringe, paranoid gun owners. People who are worried that the US government is building con cen tration cam ps to lock up/ destroy all the christians and N RA supporters.  In a discussion about 12-21 at work I overheard the phrase "If something were to happen to me, my favorite mach.ine gun and 1000 rou nds of ammo..." and I was more than a little uncomfortable. Law abiding, totally background check passing people.  I regularly go places where there are loaded shotguns by the door. I think our wild west culture contributes a lot. The media constantly playing on everyone's worst nightmares because fear sells can't help.  I can check my family out, but these are complex issues.

[dashley111]

Absolutely Sara!

Here is an interesting local scenario:

http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2012/nov/26/court-hears-arguments-on-assault-charge-in-armin/?print=1

In February there was a school shooting here locally, where an 9 year old got a gun from his mother boyfriend.  It was kept in the glove box of the car and nobody noticed it missing.  They actually changed our state law in order to be able to prosecute this man for leaving his gun out and giving the boy access to it.  Before this, there were no laws that made the state able to prosecute people whose guns were used in crimes because they did not properly store them.  I think this is a huge and necessary step that will encourage gun owners to be more responsible in how they keep their guns. 

So, yes, I do see upsides to stricter gun laws.  But I do not see banning guns to be the actual solution. 

[Jaimee]

Originally Posted by seraf 

 In a discussion about 12-21 at work I overheard the phrase "If something were to happen to me, my favorite mach.ine gun and 1000 rou nds of ammo..." and I was more than a little uncomfortable. Law abiding, totally background check passing people. 

Right, but my question is why are machine gun style weapons legal in our country? 

Originally Posted by dashley111 

So, yes, I do see upsides to stricter gun laws.  But I do not see banning guns to be the actual solution. 

I agree that banning guns completely won't work and I wouldn't even try at this point.  Just stricter laws.